(02-26-2015 12:42 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:31 PM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  I'm just curious, what are you guys seeing him do that leads you to believe he is going to be a HOF coach one day?

He was young when hired at Memphis just like Coach K. What more do you need?

How about Pitino? never won a conference championship outright. Went to 2 nit and 2 ncaas in his first 7 years. His providence team that went to the final 4 was 25-9 and 4th in his conference.

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  This post is not an endorsement or critique of Pastner.

It provides information information for discussion.

You're either the AD or one of the big $$ boosters. You are tired of being a doormat. You want to move to the next level. But the names you want aren't interested. Now you have to find someone to hire -- anyone.

You take a chance on a 33-year-old coach who has 5 years D1A head coaching experience. His record over those 5 years is 73–59 (.553) with just one NIT appearance, not a win, just an appearance.

His first season he gets you to the 3rd round of the NIT but follows it up with back-to-back 17-loss seasons with no post-season appearances. And that 3rd season ended with a 43-point loss in your conference tourney.

His first three seasons as your head coach he puts up a record of 38-47 (.447).

This brings his record after eight seasons as a D1A head coach to 111-106 (.512).

Everyone's calling for his head from students, to casual fans, and most importantly the big $ boosters. Eight years of mediocrity including three years of failure as your coach will definitely get the fan base rumbling.

The AD shut down all speculation by granting a 5-year extension. He took some serious heat for that.

But now everybody's happy. Heck, 11 Final Fours and four national championships would make most fan bases happy.

His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

The better observation would be did he show considerable coaching talent despite losing? That is your difference between K and Pastner. No one would be calling for Pastner's head if he had demonstrated a good ability to control a game, his own team, and his program. K just dismissed his first player ever at Duke this year...What is Pastner at? Like 20. The guy doesn't have what it takes to control a Memphis team.

This is silly...

Coach K proved that he could win with less talent than the other team at Army...If you take the service academy to any postseason tourney you have done a great job, hence the reason he was hired at Duke.

WHO IS BEATING DOWN OUR DOOR FOR PASTNER. What has he proven he does well. He may turn out to be the next coach K, but what has he done to lead you to believe he will. At least Coach K had success before Duke, Pastner has nothing to fall back on or point to outside of being able to recruit.

Stats are wrong 85% of the time.

(02-26-2015 12:46 PM)Oman Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:39 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  So, then you are really only comparing his first 5 years at Army and only his first year at Duke? I mean cause clearly his time at Army is comparable to JP's the situation had in first 5 years at Memphis.

Again, it is silly and deceptive to act like JP and Coach K's first years as coaches can be similarly compared. And this argument could be made for any coach just starting out.

why is it silly? it's not like JP was left with a stable of all conference players.
Tell me what coaches first 6 years would be comparable.

Army and Memphis are not comparable jobs. Full Stop. The fact of the matter is you're going to have a hard time finding any real point of comparison since it is going to be tough to find another situation where a school with the resources and advantages that Memphis had at the time hired a young third assistant with no real head coaching experience for a head coaching job many would have, at that point, ranked in the top 20.

If Pastner had started out at Army he would never have been able to pull the kind of players he's been able to get here and, the "fire Pastner" argument goes, would not have been able to paper over his deficiencies as a coach with raw talent the way that the Memphis job allowed him to do.

(02-26-2015 12:54 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  This is silly...

Coach K proved that he could win with less talent than the other team at Army...If you take the service academy to any postseason tourney you have done a great job, hence the reason he was hired at Duke.

WHO IS BEATING DOWN OUR DOOR FOR PASTNER. What has he proven he does well. He may turn out to be the next coach K, but what has he done to lead you to believe he will. At least Coach K had success before Duke, Pastner has nothing to fall back on or point to outside of being able to recruit.

Great point. Fans are deserting the program and his next job won't be a step up.

That should tell you all you need to know about how much fans and blue blood programs care about his winning percentage.

(02-26-2015 12:46 PM)Oman Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:39 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  So, then you are really only comparing his first 5 years at Army and only his first year at Duke? I mean cause clearly his time at Army is comparable to JP's the situation had in first 5 years at Memphis.

Again, it is silly and deceptive to act like JP and Coach K's first years as coaches can be similarly compared. And this argument could be made for any coach just starting out.

why is it silly? it's not like JP was left with a stable of all conference players.
Tell me what coache's first 6 years would be comparable.

He had 4* Spoon
Top 10 JUCO Coleman
5* Garcia
4* Mack
4* Kemp

That right there is probably more 4*+ players than the remainder of C-USA during that time

(02-26-2015 12:39 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:25 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  This post is not an endorsement or critique of Pastner.

It provides information information for discussion.

You're either the AD or one of the big $$ boosters. You are tired of being a doormat. You want to move to the next level. But the names you want aren't interested. Now you have to find someone to hire -- anyone.

You take a chance on a 33-year-old coach who has 5 years D1A head coaching experience. His record over those 5 years is 73–59 (.553) with just one NIT appearance, not a win, just an appearance.

His first season he gets you to the 3rd round of the NIT but follows it up with back-to-back 17-loss seasons with no post-season appearances. And that 3rd season ended with a 43-point loss in your conference tourney.

His first three seasons as your head coach he puts up a record of 38-47 (.447).

This brings his record after eight seasons as a D1A head coach to 111-106 (.512).

Everyone's calling for his head from students, to casual fans, and most importantly the big $ boosters. Eight years of mediocrity including three years of failure as your coach will definitely get the fan base rumbling.

The AD shut down all speculation by granting a 5-year extension. He took some serious heat for that.

But now everybody's happy. Heck, 11 Final Fours and four national championships would make most fan bases happy.

His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

Just a really deceptive post. First off Coach K's first 5 years were spent coaching at Army (which he got to the NIT in his third year). Secondly, it is oh so casually excluded that he took Duke to the National championship game in his 6th year there.

So, if JP takes Memphis to a National Championship game by his 6th year then I am sure the fan base will all be for keeping him... Oh wait...

Yeah, his 6th year at duke was his 11th year overall. And that's oh-so-casual math.

So, then you are really only comparing his first 5 years at Army and only his first year at Duke? I mean cause clearly his time at Army is comparable to JP's the situation had in first 5 years at Memphis.

Again, it is silly and deceptive to act like JP and Coach K's first years as coaches can be similarly compared. And this argument could be made for any coach just starting out.

You're right. Just like Frank Beamer at Va Tech.

Although, rather than several seasons of sub-par peformance Pastner has had relative success.

Is this year an anomaly or is it the beginning of a trend? I honestly don't know.

However, I am aware that I have no influence on whether he stays or goes at the end of this season and am also aware that 1 sub-par winning regular season and conference season does not spell impending doom.

I'm a Tiger fan -- not a coach fan. That's why I want Kentucky to be bounced in the first round. If I was a coach fan I'd be pulling for them.

I want the Tigers to win at a high level. I hope we can do that with our current coach. If for no other reason than being able to maintain stability.

Bringing in a new coach might turn things around immediately for the better OR it could sink us into a few years of rebuilding. I'd rather avoid that if possible.

(02-26-2015 12:53 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  This post is not an endorsement or critique of Pastner.

It provides information information for discussion.

You're either the AD or one of the big $$ boosters. You are tired of being a doormat. You want to move to the next level. But the names you want aren't interested. Now you have to find someone to hire -- anyone.

You take a chance on a 33-year-old coach who has 5 years D1A head coaching experience. His record over those 5 years is 73–59 (.553) with just one NIT appearance, not a win, just an appearance.

His first season he gets you to the 3rd round of the NIT but follows it up with back-to-back 17-loss seasons with no post-season appearances. And that 3rd season ended with a 43-point loss in your conference tourney.

His first three seasons as your head coach he puts up a record of 38-47 (.447).

This brings his record after eight seasons as a D1A head coach to 111-106 (.512).

Everyone's calling for his head from students, to casual fans, and most importantly the big $ boosters. Eight years of mediocrity including three years of failure as your coach will definitely get the fan base rumbling.

The AD shut down all speculation by granting a 5-year extension. He took some serious heat for that.

But now everybody's happy. Heck, 11 Final Fours and four national championships would make most fan bases happy.

His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

The better observation would be did he show considerable coaching talent despite losing? That is your difference between K and Pastner. No one would be calling for Pastner's head if he had demonstrated a good ability to control a game, his own team, and his program. K just dismissed his first player ever at Duke this year...What is Pastner at? Like 20. The guy doesn't have what it takes to control a Memphis team.

Did K show superior coaching ability while at Army? His results say no. Heck, what was their competition?

Is a 43 point blow out loss to Virginia in the conference tourney demonstration of superior coaching ability?

Or is it like many coaches say -- great players make great coaches?

(02-26-2015 01:20 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  Bringing in a new coach might turn things around immediately for the better OR it could sink us into a few years of rebuilding. I'd rather avoid that if possible.

In case you haven't noticed, we are already there.

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

Did K have enough sense not to leave guys with two fouls in the first half in the rest of the half to pick up their third by year six?

Did K learn how to settle on rotations and not have players minutes ping pong from one game to the next by year six?

After having four games in the past six in which Memphis has run out of gas at the end and outscored by the opponent, would K have stolen some minutes with capable reserves to ensure the main five are fresh at crunch time?

Did K make preseason promises to "press press press" and work on that all offseason, only to scrap it a couple games into the season because of one bad game.

Did K tell the kids at Army that "winning is hard" and "everybody is good" in order to reduce expectations. Or did K get really pissed at players and tell them they played like "doo-doo."

(02-26-2015 01:30 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

Did K have enough sense not to leave guys with two fouls in the first half in the rest of the half to pick up their third by year six?

Did K learn how to settle on rotations and not have players minutes ping pong from one game to the next by year six?

After having four games in the past six in which Memphis has run out of gas at the end and outscored by the opponent, would K have stolen some minutes with capable reserves to ensure the main five are fresh at crunch time?

Did K make preseason promises to "press press press" and work on that all offseason, only to scrap it a couple games into the season because of one bad game.

Did K tell the kids at Army that "winning is hard" and "everybody is good" in order to reduce expectations. Or did K get really pissed at players and tell them they played like "doo-doo."

Stammers in 3......2......1

(02-26-2015 12:31 PM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  I'm just curious, what are you guys seeing him do that leads you to believe he is going to be a HOF coach one day?

(02-26-2015 01:22 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  Did K show superior coaching ability while at Army? His results say no. Heck, what was their competition?

Is a 43 point blow out loss to Virginia in the conference tourney demonstration of superior coaching ability?

Or is it like many coaches say -- great players make great coaches?

This is a sad post.

Army has won 20 games in a season three times. Once under Tates Lock, once under some dude name Robert Knight and once under K.

K's predecessor averaged 7.75 wins a season in his four years--winning 3 in his last season. K won 11 then 20 in the next two seasons.

K had three winning seasons at Army. Since he left in 1980 (35 years) Army has managed TWO winning seasons in that time.

Army's LAST postseason appearance happened under K.

(02-26-2015 12:54 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Coach K proved that he could win with less talent than the other team at Army...If you take the service academy to any postseason tourney you have done a great job, hence the reason he was hired at Duke.

Army Cadets (NCAA Division I independent) (1975–1980)
1975–76 11–14
1976–77 20–8
1977–78 19–9 NIT First Round: L vs Rutgers 72-70
1978–79 14–11
1979–80 9–17

Total 73-59 (.553)

What I see is a coach who peaked his 2nd season in and then began a downward spiral. He won fewer games and lost more games each successive season. That doesn't look like a guy who could win with less talent.

Plus, you'd have to think that his 2nd year in when he went 20-8 he was coaching guys that had been taught by the previous coach. As Coach K became the primary source of teaching his teams fared worse.

Duke hired a 33-year-old guy who went 9-17 (.346).

(02-26-2015 01:32 PM)ByrdMan Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 01:30 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

Did K have enough sense not to leave guys with two fouls in the first half in the rest of the half to pick up their third by year six?

Did K learn how to settle on rotations and not have players minutes ping pong from one game to the next by year six?

After having four games in the past six in which Memphis has run out of gas at the end and outscored by the opponent, would K have stolen some minutes with capable reserves to ensure the main five are fresh at crunch time?

Did K make preseason promises to "press press press" and work on that all offseason, only to scrap it a couple games into the season because of one bad game.

Did K tell the kids at Army that "winning is hard" and "everybody is good" in order to reduce expectations. Or did K get really pissed at players and tell them they played like "doo-doo."

Stammers in 3......2......1

i don't know. You tell me. Did he?

Pastner took over a program with everything in place, can we please stop comparing him to Pitino and Coack K, apples and oranges. Had Cal taken over what Pastner did, it would not have taken him 5 years to get going, would have kept it going immediately. We can't keep gambling our program on someone who in 6 years hasn't really learned much, can we afford 6 more that he might break through?? People keep saying Florida and Michigan and Syracuse are all having down years, yes but their coaches have all PROVEN they can coach.

(02-26-2015 01:44 PM)ZachMan Wrote:  Pastner took over a program with everything in place, can we please stop comparing him to Pitino and Coack K, apples and oranges. Had Cal taken over what Pastner did, it would not have taken him 5 years to get going, would have kept it going immediately. We can't keep gambling our program on someone who in 6 years hasn't really learned much, can we afford 6 more that he might break through?? People keep saying Florida and Michigan and Syracuse are all having down years, yes but their coaches have all PROVEN they can coach.

What was in place when Cal left?

If I recall, we were looking for walk-ons just to be able to hold a 5-on-5 practice.

Which is why I said previously that Cal did not build a program. He built a machine, but he took that machine with him.

(02-26-2015 01:22 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:53 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  

(02-26-2015 12:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  This post is not an endorsement or critique of Pastner.

It provides information information for discussion.

You're either the AD or one of the big $$ boosters. You are tired of being a doormat. You want to move to the next level. But the names you want aren't interested. Now you have to find someone to hire -- anyone.

You take a chance on a 33-year-old coach who has 5 years D1A head coaching experience. His record over those 5 years is 73–59 (.553) with just one NIT appearance, not a win, just an appearance.

His first season he gets you to the 3rd round of the NIT but follows it up with back-to-back 17-loss seasons with no post-season appearances. And that 3rd season ended with a 43-point loss in your conference tourney.

His first three seasons as your head coach he puts up a record of 38-47 (.447).

This brings his record after eight seasons as a D1A head coach to 111-106 (.512).

Everyone's calling for his head from students, to casual fans, and most importantly the big $ boosters. Eight years of mediocrity including three years of failure as your coach will definitely get the fan base rumbling.

The AD shut down all speculation by granting a 5-year extension. He took some serious heat for that.

But now everybody's happy. Heck, 11 Final Fours and four national championships would make most fan bases happy.

His record over those first eight seasons of his head coaching career is why you don't see Krzyzewski's name in those Top 10 by Wins lists in the Tracking Pastner thread.

The better observation would be did he show considerable coaching talent despite losing? That is your difference between K and Pastner. No one would be calling for Pastner's head if he had demonstrated a good ability to control a game, his own team, and his program. K just dismissed his first player ever at Duke this year...What is Pastner at? Like 20. The guy doesn't have what it takes to control a Memphis team.

Did K show superior coaching ability while at Army? His results say no. Heck, what was their competition?

Is a 43 point blow out loss to Virginia in the conference tourney demonstration of superior coaching ability?

Or is it like many coaches say -- great players make great coaches?

I would say a lot of Coaches are made great by their players, so to that I say that is going to be a problem.. Pastner will more than likely never have the team of players he had his past 4 yrs.. The Lawson's came for one reason, in which no one can fault Pastner, anyone would have done it, the hiring of their Dad.. His recruiting has already taken a big hit and in my opinion if he is here another year it will continue to do so.. If he is here you will continuously see transfers and Juco's..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(02-26-2015 01:48 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  What was in place when Cal left?

If I recall, we were looking for walk-ons just to be able to hold a 5-on-5 practice.

Which is why I said previously that Cal did not build a program. He built a machine, but he took that machine with him.

(02-26-2015 12:58 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  He had 4* Spoon
Top 10 JUCO Coleman
5* Garcia
4* Mack
4* Kemp

That right there is probably more 4*+ players than the remainder of C-USA during that time

Keep in mind he was also gifted EW on a silver platter.