(12-18-2014 07:17 PM)banker Wrote:  You can call it an FCS mindset, or a step into irrelevancy, but that requires you to honestly believe that we are really relevant to FBS now and have the real opportunity to improve upon our position going forward. An NIT national championship? Well, if they made the ncaa tourney an 8 team field and only took teams from the power conferences, would you feel better about winning the NIT?

I need someone to convince me that under a certain set of circumstances a team from a non-P5 conference would somehow be included in an 8 team playoff or that the G5 will, under some set of circumstances, garner more than the one access spot they are guaranteed.

This year is showing exactly what every subsequent year will look like, one G5 team, hand picked by the P5, will be blessed with the worst of the NYD 6 bowls while the other 62 teams, no matter what kind of season they have, will sit quietly on the sidelines and take what ever scraps espn wants to throw at them during bowl season. You get things like a 12-1 champion against an 11-2 champion playing on December 23rd for a pathetic payout of $400,000 per team. That's less than 2% of what the ACC, SEC, Big 10 or PAC 12 champion get. And people want to act like we aren't already irrelevant to everyone but our own fan bases and the fan bases of other G5 teams?

You're arguing a point that cannot be known at this time. There is no way to know whether an eight team playoff in any given year would include one of us or not. But we do know that Boise got as high as #2 in the nation one year. That could have gotten them into a four-team playoff. So, it's certainly possible though we are not ever going to know that until...there's actually an eight team version. Anything else is speculative, but you damn sure aren't going to get there from I-AA or a G5-specific playoff. Those are basically one and the same. And yeah the deck is stacked against us, but as one of the Marshall guys said though the odds are low at least there's still a chance. Dumb and Dumber fans rejoice!

Further, and perhaps just as relevant Marshall was one of the most talked about teams during the season on every network. Sure some of that was negative at times, because they talked about their schedule being weak, but the amount of airtime they got this season from an advertising/monetary perspective was significant. No one in I-AA is getting that. Not even in the same galaxy much less ball park.

We are dealing with a new reality. In the past non P5 teams have gotten to a high ranking, but that was in the old AP and Coaches polls. Not only do those no longer matter, they are now influenced by the committee's poll.

Just look at the difference in AP rankings from previous years.

2013, Fresno St was #15 at week 12 at 9-0. NIU was #20 the same week at 10-0.
2012, week 13 you had Kent State, 11-1, at 18, NIU, 11-1 at 19, Utah St, 10-2, at 20 and Boise, 9-2 at 25.
2011, week 13 you had 12-0 Houston at 7, 10-1 Boise at 9, 9-2 TCU at 18, and 10-2 USM at 24.

What about week 13 of 2014?
10-0 Marshall at 18
9-1 CSU at 22

See a trend there? Non P5 schools are getting less and less recognition. More importantly, if you study the past rankings you will see that there was pretty much a 2 loss gap rule. In other words you would not be ranked behind a team that more than 2 more losses than you did. No way did a 3 loss team get ranked in front of an undefeated team. Most important, the cfp poll did not have a single G5 ranked in week 13, meaning there was absolutely no way a G5 was making it to the top 8.

Let's look at what would have looked like a good opportunity to crack the top 8. In 2011, Houston rolled in to the CUSA championship game at 12-0 and ranked #7 and they were playing 24th ranked USM in the game. Win and they are a top 8 shoe in, right? I agree, under the old polls they would have finished in the top 8. Here's the problem, their SOS in 2011 was #97. Their signature win was a 38-34 win over UCLA in week one, but UCLA went 6-6 that year, played in the PAC 12 championship because USC was on probation, and finished at 6-7. Given their SOS the likelihood that they would have been over #15 in the cfp poll going into the CUSA championship game is remote.

Also that year you had Boise sitting at #8 going in to the bowls, but they had a SOS of 75 and an 11-1 record. They would not have been #8 in the cfp poll with a 75 SOS. The 8 playoff teams in 2011 would have been LSU, Clemson, Oklahoma St, Wisconsin, Oregon (P5 champions), Alabama, Stanford, and Arkansas.

Here's the real problem, it's going to be impossible for a non P5 to put together a schedule that will be higher than about #50 and the committee is not going to give anybody credit for not playing a schedule not in the top 50. Just look at the conversation around FSU. They call it a weak schedule and their SOS was 36 this year. They are the defending national champ, haven't lost a game in two years, and if TCU doesn't choke against Baylor they may have not made the top 4. SMU played the toughest SOS of any G5 school this year. Their schedule was ranked 63rd.

(12-18-2014 03:18 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  If the G5 ever has its own playoff then we have rendered ourselves as defacto I-AA.

Rather than do that we need to continue the fight for access (which would largely come from an expanded playoff). A G5 playoff is the wrong way on a one way street.

it's business suicide.....I don't understand how one would consider that anything but abhorrent

I love this! Perhaps CUSA and the MAc should set up a bowl between their champions in the East regularly?!

(12-18-2014 11:53 PM)banker Wrote:  We are dealing with a new reality. In the past non P5 teams have gotten to a high ranking, but that was in the old AP and Coaches polls. Not only do those no longer matter, they are now influenced by the committee's poll.

Just look at the difference in AP rankings from previous years.

2013, Fresno St was #15 at week 12 at 9-0. NIU was #20 the same week at 10-0.
2012, week 13 you had Kent State, 11-1, at 18, NIU, 11-1 at 19, Utah St, 10-2, at 20 and Boise, 9-2 at 25.
2011, week 13 you had 12-0 Houston at 7, 10-1 Boise at 9, 9-2 TCU at 18, and 10-2 USM at 24.

What about week 13 of 2014?
10-0 Marshall at 18
9-1 CSU at 22

See a trend there? Non P5 schools are getting less and less recognition. More importantly, if you study the past rankings you will see that there was pretty much a 2 loss gap rule. In other words you would not be ranked behind a team that more than 2 more losses than you did. No way did a 3 loss team get ranked in front of an undefeated team. Most important, the cfp poll did not have a single G5 ranked in week 13, meaning there was absolutely no way a G5 was making it to the top 8.

Let's look at what would have looked like a good opportunity to crack the top 8. In 2011, Houston rolled in to the CUSA championship game at 12-0 and ranked #7 and they were playing 24th ranked USM in the game. Win and they are a top 8 shoe in, right? I agree, under the old polls they would have finished in the top 8. Here's the problem, their SOS in 2011 was #97. Their signature win was a 38-34 win over UCLA in week one, but UCLA went 6-6 that year, played in the PAC 12 championship because USC was on probation, and finished at 6-7. Given their SOS the likelihood that they would have been over #15 in the cfp poll going into the CUSA championship game is remote.

Also that year you had Boise sitting at #8 going in to the bowls, but they had a SOS of 75 and an 11-1 record. They would not have been #8 in the cfp poll with a 75 SOS. The 8 playoff teams in 2011 would have been LSU, Clemson, Oklahoma St, Wisconsin, Oregon (P5 champions), Alabama, Stanford, and Arkansas.

Here's the real problem, it's going to be impossible for a non P5 to put together a schedule that will be higher than about #50 and the committee is not going to give anybody credit for not playing a schedule not in the top 50. Just look at the conversation around FSU. They call it a weak schedule and their SOS was 36 this year. They are the defending national champ, haven't lost a game in two years, and if TCU doesn't choke against Baylor they may have not made the top 4. SMU played the toughest SOS of any G5 school this year. Their schedule was ranked 63rd.

No g5 deserved to be in the top 20 this season. Let alone top 8. Your argument is short sighted, and frankly, has a "loser" mindset to it.

(12-18-2014 02:04 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Any of you south Floridians going to the Miami Beach Bowl on Monday and the Boca Bowl on Tuesday?

If I still lived down there I would be at both for sure.

I'm going to the Boca Bowl. It's about 4 hours away from Tampa, so can't make both that and the Miami Beach Bowl.

(12-19-2014 07:17 AM)Cnelson203 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 02:04 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Any of you south Floridians going to the Miami Beach Bowl on Monday and the Boca Bowl on Tuesday?

If I still lived down there I would be at both for sure.

I'm going to the Boca Bowl. It's about 4 hours away from Tampa, so can't make both that and the Miami Beach Bowl.

Bring a poncho. We might get some isolated showers with the cold front that's coming down by Xmas.

(12-19-2014 01:17 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  I love this! Perhaps CUSA and the MAc should set up a bowl between their champions in the East regularly?!

How did this bowl get NIU anyway? I thought the SBC bowl in Mobile had first dibs on the MAC champ.

(12-19-2014 09:10 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 01:17 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  I love this! Perhaps CUSA and the MAc should set up a bowl between their champions in the East regularly?!

How did this bowl get NIU anyway? I thought the SBC bowl in Mobile had first dibs on the MAC champ.

ESPN

I was planning on buying tickets at the gate, hope I didn't screw up. Who would of thought this would sellout, I was thinking 22k-25k would be good.

(12-19-2014 10:30 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  I was planning on buying tickets at the gate, hope I didn't screw up. Who would of thought this would sellout, I was thinking 22k-25k would be good.

Its Marshall vs NIU not Marshall vs FIU ;-)

(12-19-2014 10:30 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  I was planning on buying tickets at the gate, hope I didn't screw up. Who would of thought this would sellout, I was thinking 22k-25k would be good.

Marshall has a ton of alumni/alums from NC down to Florida. In 2011 when we played in the B'o'B bowl we were 6-6 and very unstable, no one knew how we were going to play. Couple that with playing FIU to Marshall fans that just didn't look like an attractive way to spend money right before Christmas. I still to this day think we out numbered FIU at the game.

This is a different situation. Marshall has a solid team in just about every position and now expects to win every game. Those who have been around the program, it feels like the entire 90s. Marshall is 12-1 playing a team that we know in NIU who is 11-2. This game should be a very good game. I would enjoy a good blowout again, but I just don't see that.

Good to see, even if the stadium hold 30K. This is a good matchup with CUSA champ vs MAC champ. I'll be watching.

(12-18-2014 02:04 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Any of you south Floridians going to the Miami Beach Bowl on Monday and the Boca Bowl on Tuesday?

If I still lived down there I would be at both for sure.

I'm most likely going to both. And with the Miami Beach Bowl being at 2:00, I'll be back in Boca later Monday night for the Marshall pep rally in Milner. Go Herd!

(12-19-2014 03:30 AM)goherd24herdfans Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 11:53 PM)banker Wrote:  We are dealing with a new reality. In the past non P5 teams have gotten to a high ranking, but that was in the old AP and Coaches polls. Not only do those no longer matter, they are now influenced by the committee's poll.

Just look at the difference in AP rankings from previous years.

2013, Fresno St was #15 at week 12 at 9-0. NIU was #20 the same week at 10-0.
2012, week 13 you had Kent State, 11-1, at 18, NIU, 11-1 at 19, Utah St, 10-2, at 20 and Boise, 9-2 at 25.
2011, week 13 you had 12-0 Houston at 7, 10-1 Boise at 9, 9-2 TCU at 18, and 10-2 USM at 24.

What about week 13 of 2014?
10-0 Marshall at 18
9-1 CSU at 22

See a trend there? Non P5 schools are getting less and less recognition. More importantly, if you study the past rankings you will see that there was pretty much a 2 loss gap rule. In other words you would not be ranked behind a team that more than 2 more losses than you did. No way did a 3 loss team get ranked in front of an undefeated team. Most important, the cfp poll did not have a single G5 ranked in week 13, meaning there was absolutely no way a G5 was making it to the top 8.

Let's look at what would have looked like a good opportunity to crack the top 8. In 2011, Houston rolled in to the CUSA championship game at 12-0 and ranked #7 and they were playing 24th ranked USM in the game. Win and they are a top 8 shoe in, right? I agree, under the old polls they would have finished in the top 8. Here's the problem, their SOS in 2011 was #97. Their signature win was a 38-34 win over UCLA in week one, but UCLA went 6-6 that year, played in the PAC 12 championship because USC was on probation, and finished at 6-7. Given their SOS the likelihood that they would have been over #15 in the cfp poll going into the CUSA championship game is remote.

Also that year you had Boise sitting at #8 going in to the bowls, but they had a SOS of 75 and an 11-1 record. They would not have been #8 in the cfp poll with a 75 SOS. The 8 playoff teams in 2011 would have been LSU, Clemson, Oklahoma St, Wisconsin, Oregon (P5 champions), Alabama, Stanford, and Arkansas.

Here's the real problem, it's going to be impossible for a non P5 to put together a schedule that will be higher than about #50 and the committee is not going to give anybody credit for not playing a schedule not in the top 50. Just look at the conversation around FSU. They call it a weak schedule and their SOS was 36 this year. They are the defending national champ, haven't lost a game in two years, and if TCU doesn't choke against Baylor they may have not made the top 4. SMU played the toughest SOS of any G5 school this year. Their schedule was ranked 63rd.

No g5 deserved to be in the top 20 this season. Let alone top 8. Your argument is short sighted, and frankly, has a "loser" mindset to it.

Way to read a lot of info, discard it based on nothing of merit and then just call me a loser because it's all you got.

How was 11-1 Kent State or NIU more deserving of a top 20 ranking than 11-0 Marshall? Do you think Houston would have made it to #7 this year with a SOS of 97? Do you think the committee will reward any team that doesn't have a top 50 SOS?

Add something or just drop it.

(12-19-2014 02:07 PM)banker Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 03:30 AM)goherd24herdfans Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 11:53 PM)banker Wrote:  We are dealing with a new reality. In the past non P5 teams have gotten to a high ranking, but that was in the old AP and Coaches polls. Not only do those no longer matter, they are now influenced by the committee's poll.

Just look at the difference in AP rankings from previous years.

2013, Fresno St was #15 at week 12 at 9-0. NIU was #20 the same week at 10-0.
2012, week 13 you had Kent State, 11-1, at 18, NIU, 11-1 at 19, Utah St, 10-2, at 20 and Boise, 9-2 at 25.
2011, week 13 you had 12-0 Houston at 7, 10-1 Boise at 9, 9-2 TCU at 18, and 10-2 USM at 24.

What about week 13 of 2014?
10-0 Marshall at 18
9-1 CSU at 22

See a trend there? Non P5 schools are getting less and less recognition. More importantly, if you study the past rankings you will see that there was pretty much a 2 loss gap rule. In other words you would not be ranked behind a team that more than 2 more losses than you did. No way did a 3 loss team get ranked in front of an undefeated team. Most important, the cfp poll did not have a single G5 ranked in week 13, meaning there was absolutely no way a G5 was making it to the top 8.

Let's look at what would have looked like a good opportunity to crack the top 8. In 2011, Houston rolled in to the CUSA championship game at 12-0 and ranked #7 and they were playing 24th ranked USM in the game. Win and they are a top 8 shoe in, right? I agree, under the old polls they would have finished in the top 8. Here's the problem, their SOS in 2011 was #97. Their signature win was a 38-34 win over UCLA in week one, but UCLA went 6-6 that year, played in the PAC 12 championship because USC was on probation, and finished at 6-7. Given their SOS the likelihood that they would have been over #15 in the cfp poll going into the CUSA championship game is remote.

Also that year you had Boise sitting at #8 going in to the bowls, but they had a SOS of 75 and an 11-1 record. They would not have been #8 in the cfp poll with a 75 SOS. The 8 playoff teams in 2011 would have been LSU, Clemson, Oklahoma St, Wisconsin, Oregon (P5 champions), Alabama, Stanford, and Arkansas.

Here's the real problem, it's going to be impossible for a non P5 to put together a schedule that will be higher than about #50 and the committee is not going to give anybody credit for not playing a schedule not in the top 50. Just look at the conversation around FSU. They call it a weak schedule and their SOS was 36 this year. They are the defending national champ, haven't lost a game in two years, and if TCU doesn't choke against Baylor they may have not made the top 4. SMU played the toughest SOS of any G5 school this year. Their schedule was ranked 63rd.

No g5 deserved to be in the top 20 this season. Let alone top 8. Your argument is short sighted, and frankly, has a "loser" mindset to it.

Way to read a lot of info, discard it based on nothing of merit and then just call me a loser because it's all you got.

How was 11-1 Kent State or NIU more deserving of a top 20 ranking than 11-0 Marshall? Do you think Houston would have made it to #7 this year with a SOS of 97? Do you think the committee will reward any team that doesn't have a top 50 SOS?

Add something or just drop it.

Lol banker. I said you have a loser mindset on the topic. Big difference. A top 25 team doesnt lose to WKU at home, nor Air force, nor central michigan. SOS is a real factor, though it is played out and taken too far now days. I don't believe that we, after the WKU ass kicking, deserve a top 25 ranking. If we beat NIU, we do. I disagree with the committees process, but the results are the same. The rankings you are speaking of for those other teams were not the CFP top 25. It was the AP and Coaches as you noted. We were easily top 15 going into cusa title game had we beat WKU. Win that and we may be 13 or so and win against a big time opponent? Top 10 finish (very similar to 99 team). Thats apples to apples. You are comparing apples to oranges (AP vs CFP25)

But the whole point of the discussion why not form a G5 playoff? The two sides on that are A) no, it will exclude us and B) yes, because we are already excluded so we really wouldn't be giving anything up.

By noting the difference in how the cfp poll views things you are pretty much conceding the point that we are already being excluded.

(12-20-2014 08:57 PM)banker Wrote:  But the whole point of the discussion why not form a G5 playoff? The two sides on that are A) no, it will exclude us and B) yes, because we are already excluded so we really wouldn't be giving anything up.

By noting the difference in how the cfp poll views things you are pretty much conceding the point that we are already being excluded.

The argument you are presenting here is a False Dilemma Fallacy... i would argue there is a C) option, where we are partially excluded currently, but that is still better than any other outcome for us.

C) You have an extremely small chance to ever win a national title, but you are included in getting a portion of the money, along with the national sports coverage, rankings, recruiting, and exposure that is a priviledge of being a D1A school. You are also relevant and a national underdog story when you are having a special season. You could be undefeated for 5 straight years in a lower division and hardly anyone cares or even knows.

Can you see that part of it?

To relate Leaving to form our own division, consider this tennis analogy.

Right now, we play on the sidecourts at wimbeldon, with a decent amount of fans and media coverage from ESPN and others, but not center court, except for the one of us that is the best that year, then we get 1 game on center court at the end of the season.
We arent happy with that so we instead go form our own division, where play a 16 team tournament at a local high school court with next to no mainstream meda coverage, and our title game gets on a 4th tier ESPN network, and we take ourselves into full exclusion by choice.

(12-19-2014 11:17 AM)voss749 Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 10:30 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  I was planning on buying tickets at the gate, hope I didn't screw up. Who would of thought this would sellout, I was thinking 22k-25k would be good.

Its Marshall vs NIU not Marshall vs FIU ;-)

Nor NIU vs. FAU?

Anyways, great job by both programs, rooting hard for Marshall to win this game.

Go Marshall and C-USA!

Been very impressed with attendance in the bowls so far. Except the rain soaked Potato Bowl