(10-02-2014 02:01 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  USF has very good and highly recruited players on their roster, probably if you go up and down the roster, most of USF's players were higher recruits than ECU's.

Football recruiting rankings are a joke (especially if you are in a area like NC that is a lot less focused on by scouts). If that's what you think is going to make you actually good, good luck is all I can say.

You only have 14 friggen games a year, and 50 plays on one side of the ball to really scout these players, and 95% of prospects are still unfinished physically products that have to be built in the weight room from 17 year olds when you recruit them to 23 year olds. This isnt' basketball with 30 games to scout with players playing almost every minute on both sides, then AAU all summer, prep schools that put all the top players together so you can see them compete vs other top players, and the majority of these guys that don't need to put on 15lbs of muscule much less 50lbs to compete with older players etc, not to mention there of hundreds less players to scout through than on football teams.

Look at our 2 CUSA championships teams. That senior class won championships their Jr and Sr year and beat ranked Boise, West Virginia, Virgina Tech, Houston etc with a senior class that didn't have a single 3 star player and most didn't have D1 offers and guys like CJ Wilson who are still in the NFL is a Defensive line men that came to us with no offers and as a DB/RB after putting on 80lbs You can't see genetics of all these unfinished products and plenty of guys blow up building them. There were like 5 NFL players out of that class as well. Wilson, Ross, Hudgins, Allison, Eskridge and a couple other All conf and not a single guy over a 2 star.

Look at our team stars like Carden (1 D1 offer), Hardy (walk on), Terry Williams (2 star LB now a 400lb NG), Jones (2 star Sun Belt offers), Worthy (walk on), Allen etc and most of our best players on our team were walk ons or 2 star with 1 or 2 offers. Our OC even said when we first got Hardy had he been in Texas he would have been a 4 star recruit, where as here he was a walk on no star.

It's always been that way at ECU. Jeff Blake, Chris Johnson, Garrard etc. No one wanted them or if they did they wanted them to move to TE or WR whatever. Coaching and weight room in college that matters after those elite 15 powerhouse schools divvy up the few freaks that are like 270lbs that already run 4.5's.

(10-02-2014 11:57 AM)Bear Wrote:  I don't get the 5 dash "1" part?

Anyways, can we have ECU's QB!! ?? Please!

When beat UCF in Tampa this November our all time record against the Knights will be 5-1.

The "dash" comment refers to former Bucs Head Coach, Sam Wyche's infamous quote during the 1994 season.

"This season is famous for Sam Wyche, Head Coach of the Bucs, saying "Five dash Two" to reporters during a press conference after game 7 in which he basically told reporters "HA I told you so" even though those 5 wins were close games marked by a great deal of luck for the Bucs. Tampa had won 9 of its previous 12 games, going back to the end of the 1994 season, and many observers felt they had become a sleeper NFC playoff contender. However, the good luck and victory string soon ran out"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Tampa_...ers_season

(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

So? Are we dusting off John Thompson and 5-9 DB turned QB whatever his name was that we started 2 of those games? How do you think that has any bearing on 2014? That's like USM posting all time records vs Louisville or even ECU, you think anyone cares at this point where they are and were we are?

I take extra pleasure in pointing USF’s our all-time 4-0 record against ECU, b/c many Pirates fans repeatedly told USF fans back in our pre-C-USA days that we would NEVER catch up to ECU on or off the field. Four victories later, including a bowl game blow out…and I just laugh at those early days of USF football. Good times for sure…

BTW, those were fun games back in the day. I travelled to one of those games and had a blast tailgating with ECU fans who were parked all around our group of cars and made us feel at home. College football at its best IMHO.

(10-02-2014 11:52 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 11:36 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 11:33 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  LOL. IF your team needs something like what this kid said to fire itself up and beat a mediocre at best USF team then you have bigger problems to worry about

ecu was probably going to win, the problem is now they might try to embarrass usf with points,...
depending on how much ecu players are, you might have went from a lack luster ECU to a fired up ecu looking for blood and a 80-0 game

sorry but ECU is not "80-0" good...

I think its going to be closer game than most expect.

Keeps this post in mind till after the SMU game is over...

(10-02-2014 02:45 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 11:52 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 11:36 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 11:33 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  LOL. IF your team needs something like what this kid said to fire itself up and beat a mediocre at best USF team then you have bigger problems to worry about

ecu was probably going to win, the problem is now they might try to embarrass usf with points,...
depending on how much ecu players are, you might have went from a lack luster ECU to a fired up ecu looking for blood and a 80-0 game

sorry but ECU is not "80-0" good...

I think its going to be closer game than most expect.

Keeps this post in mind till after the SMU game is over...

....just hoping my comments won't come back and haunt me ;^)

(10-02-2014 02:38 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

So? Are we dusting off John Thompson and 5-9 DB turned QB whatever his name was that we started 2 of those games? How do you think that has any bearing on 2014? That's like USM posting all time records vs Louisville or even ECU, you think anyone cares at this point where they are and were we are?

I take extra pleasure in pointing USF’s our all-time 4-0 record against ECU, b/c many Pirates fans repeatedly told USF fans back in our pre-C-USA days that we would NEVER catch up to ECU on or off the field. Four victories later, including a bowl game blow out…and I just laugh at those early days of USF football. Good times for sure…

We were 7-29 those first 3 wins of yours under Logan/Thompson. It's not like it was much of an accomplishment.

The last time you beat Holtz in a bowl we were 7-6 that year and had just got back to respectability and our first bowl in like 5 years. Those games correlated basically with the worst period in ECU history.

My point is there isn't a single player or major coach even hold over from this era. We are both removed by several head coaches and generations of college kids at this point who even cares. It's like USM, I'm sure they own pretty much everyone all time records, doesn't mean anyone would want to be them now.

I've been around long enough to see the times you guys were riding high talking down to UCF or whoever when they sucked, and just how much things can change in the matter of years. Basically you are only as good as your current coach.

(10-02-2014 11:33 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  LOL. IF your team needs something like what this kid said to fire itself up and beat a mediocre at best USF team then you have bigger problems to worry about

This! Come on already... little bit of overreaction to an offhanded comment that was quickly shot down by Taggart.

(10-02-2014 10:47 AM)TampaKnight Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 08:53 AM)pesik Wrote:  i understand the the houston/ucf smack because we had a relatively close game last year and we are borderline equal as far as percieved strength but usf calling out ecu???

but i find it funny that taggart went on to talk smack about his own guy when informed of the comment
""Who you talkin' about, the backup?" -- Taggart's initial reaction when told of Lee's comments

USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

Hmmm. Another 4-0 record about to crash and burn? And two years in a row, too.

Dude... Congrats on the great season, but the best UCF team EVER, beat the worst usf team EVER, and probably the worst team in FBS last year, by a whopping 3 points. I have a lot of friends who are Knights, and they are not pounding their chests about that win, it scared them to death. But that's football, anything can happen!

(10-02-2014 03:13 PM)Bull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 11:33 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  LOL. IF your team needs something like what this kid said to fire itself up and beat a mediocre at best USF team then you have bigger problems to worry about

This! Come on already... little bit of overreaction to an offhanded comment that was quickly shot down by Taggart.

Either way our team will use it. UNC ran their mouth about us being "beneath them" and a copy of the quote was posted in the lockeroom.

(10-02-2014 03:09 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:38 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

So? Are we dusting off John Thompson and 5-9 DB turned QB whatever his name was that we started 2 of those games? How do you think that has any bearing on 2014? That's like USM posting all time records vs Louisville or even ECU, you think anyone cares at this point where they are and were we are?

I take extra pleasure in pointing USF’s our all-time 4-0 record against ECU, b/c many Pirates fans repeatedly told USF fans back in our pre-C-USA days that we would NEVER catch up to ECU on or off the field. Four victories later, including a bowl game blow out…and I just laugh at those early days of USF football. Good times for sure…

We were 7-29 those first 3 wins of yours under Logan/Thompson. It's not like it was much of an accomplishment.

The last time you beat Holtz in a bowl we were 7-6 that year and had kojust got back to respectability and our first bowl in like 5 years. Those games correlated basically with the worst period in ECU history.

My point is there isn't a single player or major coach even hold over from this era. We are both removed by several head coaches and generations of college kids at this point who even cares. It's like USM, I'm sure they own pretty much everyone all time records, doesn't mean anyone would want to be them now.

I've been around long enough to see the times you guys were riding high talking down to UCF or whoever when they sucked, and just how much things can change in the matter of years. Basically you are only as good as your current coach.

What goes must come down and viceversa. You guys are doing well now and we are not. But just like those previous times didn't last neither will these.
So enjoy your times now. Who knows how long they will last or how long before they happen again

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 08:53 AM)pesik Wrote:  i understand the the houston/ucf smack because we had a relatively close game last year and we are borderline equal as far as percieved strength but usf calling out ecu???

but i find it funny that taggart went on to talk smack about his own guy when informed of the comment
""Who you talkin' about, the backup?" -- Taggart's initial reaction when told of Lee's comments

USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

Then again, I always wonder why players feel compelled to give the opposing team extra added motivation. Shane Carden reminds me a little bit of Matt Grothe with his playmaking ability and personality. Grothe loved the pre-game smack talk. Just ask UCF fans...

However, the reality of the situation is that this type of stuff is what makes the games fun for fans but has very little bearing on the outcome of the game. The better team will win the game. It will be fun to resume our rivalry with ECU and looking forward to travelling to ECU next year.

Let's just hope Shane Carden doesn't end up driving a beer truck, like Matt.

(10-02-2014 03:25 PM)Knightsweat Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 08:53 AM)pesik Wrote:  i understand the the houston/ucf smack because we had a relatively close game last year and we are borderline equal as far as percieved strength but usf calling out ecu???

but i find it funny that taggart went on to talk smack about his own guy when informed of the comment
""Who you talkin' about, the backup?" -- Taggart's initial reaction when told of Lee's comments

USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

Then again, I always wonder why players feel compelled to give the opposing team extra added motivation. Shane Carden reminds me a little bit of Matt Grothe with his playmaking ability and personality. Grothe loved the pre-game smack talk. Just ask UCF fans...

However, the reality of the situation is that this type of stuff is what makes the games fun for fans but has very little bearing on the outcome of the game. The better team will win the game. It will be fun to resume our rivalry with ECU and looking forward to travelling to ECU next year.

Let's just hope Shane Carden doesn't end up driving a beer truck, like Matt.

And he was great at driving it right over UCF defenders

(10-02-2014 03:29 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 03:25 PM)Knightsweat Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 08:53 AM)pesik Wrote:  i understand the the houston/ucf smack because we had a relatively close game last year and we are borderline equal as far as percieved strength but usf calling out ecu???

but i find it funny that taggart went on to talk smack about his own guy when informed of the comment
""Who you talkin' about, the backup?" -- Taggart's initial reaction when told of Lee's comments

USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

Then again, I always wonder why players feel compelled to give the opposing team extra added motivation. Shane Carden reminds me a little bit of Matt Grothe with his playmaking ability and personality. Grothe loved the pre-game smack talk. Just ask UCF fans...

However, the reality of the situation is that this type of stuff is what makes the games fun for fans but has very little bearing on the outcome of the game. The better team will win the game. It will be fun to resume our rivalry with ECU and looking forward to travelling to ECU next year.

Let's just hope Shane Carden doesn't end up driving a beer truck, like Matt.

And he was great at driving it right over UCF defenders

The only thing he drives anymore is a commercial vehicle. Honk that horn Matt! You're so cool!! Right where he belongs.

(10-02-2014 03:18 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 03:09 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:38 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

So? Are we dusting off John Thompson and 5-9 DB turned QB whatever his name was that we started 2 of those games? How do you think that has any bearing on 2014? That's like USM posting all time records vs Louisville or even ECU, you think anyone cares at this point where they are and were we are?

I take extra pleasure in pointing USF’s our all-time 4-0 record against ECU, b/c many Pirates fans repeatedly told USF fans back in our pre-C-USA days that we would NEVER catch up to ECU on or off the field. Four victories later, including a bowl game blow out…and I just laugh at those early days of USF football. Good times for sure…

We were 7-29 those first 3 wins of yours under Logan/Thompson. It's not like it was much of an accomplishment.

The last time you beat Holtz in a bowl we were 7-6 that year and had kojust got back to respectability and our first bowl in like 5 years. Those games correlated basically with the worst period in ECU history.

My point is there isn't a single player or major coach even hold over from this era. We are both removed by several head coaches and generations of college kids at this point who even cares. It's like USM, I'm sure they own pretty much everyone all time records, doesn't mean anyone would want to be them now.

I've been around long enough to see the times you guys were riding high talking down to UCF or whoever when they sucked, and just how much things can change in the matter of years. Basically you are only as good as your current coach.

What goes must come down and viceversa. You guys are doing well now and we are not. But just like those previous times didn't last neither will these.
So enjoy your times now. Who knows how long they will last or how long before they happen again

We'll I don't see Ruff leaving at all, and especially not pulling a Skip Holtz and leaving for a USF. There's the difference, and BTW thank you for making all this possible. As long as Ruff's around I don't foresee every falling into a John Thompson hole or the constant roller coaster Logan was.

The only major assistant we have on staff I expect to lose in the next 5-8 years is Riley and I think we have his replacement already here in Nichols. If not Ruff has a Rolodex 10 years deep with Texas Tech guys that can run the air raid and a couple others that have already been here that went to Washington State to be with Leach probably wouldn't mind coming back to run it.

Ruff's 55 years old and so are most of our major assistants and coordinators several who have been here under multiple coaches or are also alums and unlikely to leave at this point. I expect a nice long era of stability here. Hopefully we get 10-15 years out of Ruff and he hands it off to the next Alum like Yellock he's trained up.

(10-02-2014 11:33 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  LOL. IF your team needs something like what this kid said to fire itself up and beat a mediocre at best USF team then you have bigger problems to worry about

Exactly...

(10-02-2014 03:18 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 03:09 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:38 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

So? Are we dusting off John Thompson and 5-9 DB turned QB whatever his name was that we started 2 of those games? How do you think that has any bearing on 2014? That's like USM posting all time records vs Louisville or even ECU, you think anyone cares at this point where they are and were we are?

I take extra pleasure in pointing USF’s our all-time 4-0 record against ECU, b/c many Pirates fans repeatedly told USF fans back in our pre-C-USA days that we would NEVER catch up to ECU on or off the field. Four victories later, including a bowl game blow out…and I just laugh at those early days of USF football. Good times for sure…

We were 7-29 those first 3 wins of yours under Logan/Thompson. It's not like it was much of an accomplishment.

The last time you beat Holtz in a bowl we were 7-6 that year and had kojust got back to respectability and our first bowl in like 5 years. Those games correlated basically with the worst period in ECU history.

My point is there isn't a single player or major coach even hold over from this era. We are both removed by several head coaches and generations of college kids at this point who even cares. It's like USM, I'm sure they own pretty much everyone all time records, doesn't mean anyone would want to be them now.

I've been around long enough to see the times you guys were riding high talking down to UCF or whoever when they sucked, and just how much things can change in the matter of years. Basically you are only as good as your current coach.

What goes must come down and viceversa. You guys are doing well now and we are not. But just like those previous times didn't last neither will these.
So enjoy your times now. Who knows how long they will last or how long before they happen again

On target here…Every program has its ups and downs. That 4-0 stretch of losses to you guys were at the beginning, during, and the end of one of our worst stretches of ball in the history of our program. That last time you guys beat us in the bowl game we had a decent team but other than that game you guys played some of our worst teams in history.

I am sure USF will be back soon, I have watched a couple of your games this season and you are not too far away from being back. Once you QB gets some experience and you guys get a couple more receivers you will be well on your way.

I think our game against you guys next weekend will be more difficult than what many people think. You guys are pretty good on both lines and I could see you guys getting some decent pressure on Carden. I think the key match-up will be our dline against your oline and not letting your young back get on a roll.

(10-02-2014 03:34 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 03:18 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 03:09 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 02:38 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 12:14 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  So? Are we dusting off John Thompson and 5-9 DB turned QB whatever his name was that we started 2 of those games? How do you think that has any bearing on 2014? That's like USM posting all time records vs Louisville or even ECU, you think anyone cares at this point where they are and were we are?

I take extra pleasure in pointing USF’s our all-time 4-0 record against ECU, b/c many Pirates fans repeatedly told USF fans back in our pre-C-USA days that we would NEVER catch up to ECU on or off the field. Four victories later, including a bowl game blow out…and I just laugh at those early days of USF football. Good times for sure…

We were 7-29 those first 3 wins of yours under Logan/Thompson. It's not like it was much of an accomplishment.

The last time you beat Holtz in a bowl we were 7-6 that year and had kojust got back to respectability and our first bowl in like 5 years. Those games correlated basically with the worst period in ECU history.

My point is there isn't a single player or major coach even hold over from this era. We are both removed by several head coaches and generations of college kids at this point who even cares. It's like USM, I'm sure they own pretty much everyone all time records, doesn't mean anyone would want to be them now.

I've been around long enough to see the times you guys were riding high talking down to UCF or whoever when they sucked, and just how much things can change in the matter of years. Basically you are only as good as your current coach.

What goes must come down and viceversa. You guys are doing well now and we are not. But just like those previous times didn't last neither will these.
So enjoy your times now. Who knows how long they will last or how long before they happen again

We'll I don't see Ruff leaving at all, and especially not pulling a Skip Holtz and leaving for a USF. There's the difference, and BTW thank you for making all this possible. As long as Ruff's around I don't foresee every falling into a John Thompson hole or the constant roller coaster Logan was.

The only major assistant we have on staff I expect to lose in the next 5-8 years is Riley and I think we have his replacement already here in Nichols. If not Ruff has a Rolodex 10 years deep with Texas Tech guys that can run the air raid and a couple others that have already been here that went to Washington State to be with Leach probably wouldn't mind coming back to run it.

Ruff's 55 years old and so are most of our major assistants and coordinators several who have been here under multiple coaches or are also alums and unlikely to leave at this point. I expect a nice long era of stability here. Hopefully we get 10-15 years out of Ruff and he hands it off to the next Alum like Yellock he's trained up.

Riley leaving could really hurt us on the offensive side of the ball…I could see some of the other assistants with a Texas Tech background on offense follow Riley to his next stop. I think the key will be if there is a guy on the offensive staff that Coach Ruff feels is ready to make the step to an offensive coordinator role…If that happens hopefully we will be able to hang on to most of our offensive staff.

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 08:53 AM)pesik Wrote:  i understand the the houston/ucf smack because we had a relatively close game last year and we are borderline equal as far as percieved strength but usf calling out ecu???

but i find it funny that taggart went on to talk smack about his own guy when informed of the comment
""Who you talkin' about, the backup?" -- Taggart's initial reaction when told of Lee's comments

USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

all tme record smack on a 4 game series...2 under a coach that shall not be named. USF is a joke right now.

(10-02-2014 05:50 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 09:04 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(10-02-2014 08:53 AM)pesik Wrote:  i understand the the houston/ucf smack because we had a relatively close game last year and we are borderline equal as far as percieved strength but usf calling out ecu???

but i find it funny that taggart went on to talk smack about his own guy when informed of the comment
""Who you talkin' about, the backup?" -- Taggart's initial reaction when told of Lee's comments

USF owns a 4-0 all time record against ECU so.....

all tme record smack on a 4 game series...2 under a coach that shall not be named. USF is a joke right now.

If we are a joke then why make a big deal about this kid quote. As I say enjoy the highs because they don't last

(10-02-2014 04:22 PM)ECU-DMB Fanatic Wrote:  Riley leaving could really hurt us on the offensive side of the ball…I could see some of the other assistants with a Texas Tech background on offense follow Riley to his next stop.

So a guy like Dave Nichols who is already here would turn down an OC job to go to somewhere and be an assistant under Riley? I doubt it. Then you got guys that were already here like Clay McGuire or Dennis Simmons that would probably leave Washington State and their 30k drawing fanbase to come back and be a Coordinator. There are probably a multitude of other guys Ruff worked with the 10 years there we don't even know about he could call.

I expect there are plenty of Texas Tech guys that would love to work for a coach committed to running the offense and I can't think of a single one that came out of that tree that hasn't been sucessful.

Leach
Briles
Dykes
Holgerson
Kingsbury
Riley

Lot of proven guys coming out of there. The system is already in place, the playbook, the way of training and player recruited for, and a coach commited to it. Heck even how to train and work out they way they do. What more could you ask for.

Quote:I think the key will be if there is a guy on the offensive staff that Coach Ruff feels is ready to make the step to an offensive coordinator role…If that happens hopefully we will be able to hang on to most of our offensive staff.

How about this guy?

Quote:Dave Nichols
37 years old
Texas Tech grad/ Class 99

2000-01 assisted with QB's and WR's under Leach

2002 Passing game coordinator at Cisco Junior College (led Conf in passing and finished second in total offense)

2003-05 back with Texas Tech/ Leach as Offensive line assistant

2006 Baylor assistant

2007-2011 Arizona assistant under OC and Tech grad Sonny Dykes who was OC under Leach at Texas Tech

2012-2014 ECU assistant under Lincoln Riley another Texas Tech guy

Better resume than Riley had. He's already here, he knows the playbook, he knows the players already, he knows the coaching staff and he's already called plays successfully at least at the JUCO level.

Kirpatrick isn't going anywhere and he's been here under 2 coaches is late 50's and recruiting coordinator. He's also a former successful OC at Louisville and Tennesse Chattanooga, even head coach so worst comes to worse he takes the playbook and over. I actually think he's a big part of why we use things like TE's and run and helped shape Riley's/the ECU version of it.

Doll isn't going anywhere either. He's 63 and an Alum and special teams Coordinator and RB coach. The only guy I think we are even endanger of losing is the OL coach Jones. Riley might take him with him but I think any number of guys from Texas Tech would love to step into a program with the foundation of players recruited for this system and fimilarity already in place and just pick up this playbook and go. Nichols is a no brainer IMO at this point.

At the end of the day Ruff is committed to running a high pace air raid style of offense. That's the main key. It's not like a Holtz run it up the gut and kill clock and hope to hold on or that he would ever transform into that after that.