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I agree, what's the closest others have to RTB in terms of a nursery rhyme?

(07-30-2014 11:22 PM)BroncoLifer Wrote:  I agree, what's the closest others have to RTB in terms of a nursery rhyme?

Nursery rhyme? That's kind of a stretch. Rowing is grueling sport with no connection to children's nursery rhymes. Is the Seminoles Tomahawk chop a close version of a bad cowboy and Indian movie? Is the USC Trojan a silly character from a Hollywood flick?

The difference that I see CD between the examples that you are giving and our RTB example.

First, RTB isn't a mascot like many of the those that you have brought up are. So that takes out the Alabama elephant (which I have also wondered where it came from), the War Eagle, The Ibis and the Stanford Tree (also not understanding that one).

Next, the examples of Hold the Rope, The Factory and whatever other team slogans or sayings are more of a comparative example. Here is the difference. In those cases, these are basically a slogan or saying that is used within the team. I don't ever really remember hearing any of my CMU friends say Hold the Rope or any other schools fans using a teams inside saying. That is how I believe RTB should have been used with our program. If they want to use that in house as their mantra so be it. But the way it is being used just doesn't really resonate with fans and is mocked by most everyone else.

Most schools and their fans have their quick slogan or phrase that identifies them. Go Blue, Go Green, Boiler Up, Sparty On, Hook Em, Roll Tide, War Eagle, Fire Up, Go Broncos that list goes on. I guess this biggest difference I see in these are that they generally tie in with the school or the mascot. RTB really doesn't do that, which I think is another reason that people just shake their head and don't get it.


I can understand PJs reasoning for the saying. With his personal reason and the story of coming through adversity with the death of an infant child. I get it I really do. I just think that maybe this would have been an internal team slogan rather than trying to make that the universities slogan. I really don't think that it ever catches on and once PJ is gone, whether that's in 3 years or 13 years, its not one that will stick at WMU, because it simply doesn't make sense.

(07-31-2014 05:33 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  The difference that I see CD between the examples that you are giving and our RTB example.

First, RTB isn't a mascot like many of the those that you have brought up are. So that takes out the Alabama elephant (which I have also wondered where it came from), the War Eagle, The Ibis and the Stanford Tree (also not understanding that one).

Next, the examples of Hold the Rope, The Factory and whatever other team slogans or sayings are more of a comparative example. Here is the difference. In those cases, these are basically a slogan or saying that is used within the team. I don't ever really remember hearing any of my CMU friends say Hold the Rope or any other schools fans using a teams inside saying. That is how I believe RTB should have been used with our program. If they want to use that in house as their mantra so be it. But the way it is being used just doesn't really resonate with fans and is mocked by most everyone else.

Most schools and their fans have their quick slogan or phrase that identifies them. Go Blue, Go Green, Boiler Up, Sparty On, Hook Em, Roll Tide, War Eagle, Fire Up, Go Broncos that list goes on. I guess this biggest difference I see in these are that they generally tie in with the school or the mascot. RTB really doesn't do that, which I think is another reason that people just shake their head and don't get it.


I can understand PJs reasoning for the saying. With his personal reason and the story of coming through adversity with the death of an infant child. I get it I really do. I just think that maybe this would have been an internal team slogan rather than trying to make that the universities slogan. I really don't think that it ever catches on and once PJ is gone, whether that's in 3 years or 13 years, its not one that will stick at WMU, because it simply doesn't make sense.

Excellent points. I agree.

(07-31-2014 05:33 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  The difference that I see CD between the examples that you are giving and our RTB example.

First, RTB isn't a mascot like many of the those that you have brought up are. So that takes out the Alabama elephant (which I have also wondered where it came from), the War Eagle, The Ibis and the Stanford Tree (also not understanding that one).

Next, the examples of Hold the Rope, The Factory and whatever other team slogans or sayings are more of a comparative example. Here is the difference. In those cases, these are basically a slogan or saying that is used within the team. I don't ever really remember hearing any of my CMU friends say Hold the Rope or any other schools fans using a teams inside saying. That is how I believe RTB should have been used with our program. If they want to use that in house as their mantra so be it. But the way it is being used just doesn't really resonate with fans and is mocked by most everyone else.

Most schools and their fans have their quick slogan or phrase that identifies them. Go Blue, Go Green, Boiler Up, Sparty On, Hook Em, Roll Tide, War Eagle, Fire Up, Go Broncos that list goes on. I guess this biggest difference I see in these are that they generally tie in with the school or the mascot. RTB really doesn't do that, which I think is another reason that people just shake their head and don't get it.


I can understand PJs reasoning for the saying. With his personal reason and the story of coming through adversity with the death of an infant child. I get it I really do. I just think that maybe this would have been an internal team slogan rather than trying to make that the universities slogan. I really don't think that it ever catches on and once PJ is gone, whether that's in 3 years or 13 years, its not one that will stick at WMU, because it simply doesn't make sense.

Notice also that there is no RTB permanently attached to the actual Jerseys they wear. Its on the sleeve of an undershirt that is exposed by the shorter jersey sleeves. ITs also on that replaceable part of the helmet between the forehead face mask screws.. It's mostly on re-paintable areas of the teams facility and maybe on that canopy used as a tunnel for the players entering the field... but nowhere permanently attached to the public viewable facility... Just a thought that PJ understands that he can't brand the slogan on places where it would be difficult to remove once he's gone... so there's that.

(07-31-2014 07:45 AM)Cant make this sh t up Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 10:29 PM)ghost bronco Wrote:  Our coach used it to keep going in life after the death of his infant child and tried to instill that type of no quit mentality into the program.

Just to add onto that...RTB stands for life principles Responsibility, Trust and Belief. Very good motto for young men in our community to model their character after. The explanation, of the BOAT and its OARS, makes logical sense (I know here we go again with logic) if you LISTEN and understand the message and make up of the process of ROWING.
I know some of you are open minded enough to actually get it, but some of you aren't. If you know anything about "motivational" companies out their and Positive messages, Rowing and Boats are used quite often.

Nope, negative connotations and nursery rhymes only!

(07-31-2014 07:29 AM)flushtheherd Wrote:  

(07-31-2014 05:33 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  The difference that I see CD between the examples that you are giving and our RTB example.

First, RTB isn't a mascot like many of the those that you have brought up are. So that takes out the Alabama elephant (which I have also wondered where it came from), the War Eagle, The Ibis and the Stanford Tree (also not understanding that one).

Next, the examples of Hold the Rope, The Factory and whatever other team slogans or sayings are more of a comparative example. Here is the difference. In those cases, these are basically a slogan or saying that is used within the team. I don't ever really remember hearing any of my CMU friends say Hold the Rope or any other schools fans using a teams inside saying. That is how I believe RTB should have been used with our program. If they want to use that in house as their mantra so be it. But the way it is being used just doesn't really resonate with fans and is mocked by most everyone else.

Most schools and their fans have their quick slogan or phrase that identifies them. Go Blue, Go Green, Boiler Up, Sparty On, Hook Em, Roll Tide, War Eagle, Fire Up, Go Broncos that list goes on. I guess this biggest difference I see in these are that they generally tie in with the school or the mascot. RTB really doesn't do that, which I think is another reason that people just shake their head and don't get it.


I can understand PJs reasoning for the saying. With his personal reason and the story of coming through adversity with the death of an infant child. I get it I really do. I just think that maybe this would have been an internal team slogan rather than trying to make that the universities slogan. I really don't think that it ever catches on and once PJ is gone, whether that's in 3 years or 13 years, its not one that will stick at WMU, because it simply doesn't make sense.

Notice also that there is no RTB permanently attached to the actual Jerseys they wear. Its on the sleeve of an undershirt that is exposed by the shorter jersey sleeves. ITs also on that replaceable part of the helmet between the forehead face mask screws.. It's mostly on re-paintable areas of the teams facility and maybe on that canopy used as a tunnel for the players entering the field... but nowhere permanently attached to the public viewable facility... Just a thought that PJ understands that he can't brand the slogan on places where it would be difficult to remove once he's gone... so there's that.

Good point flush. I'm over arguing about whether or not we like or dislike Row The Boat. Its not going anywhere as long as PJ is here (again 3 years or 13 years).

I guess the difference that I see is that many of those sayings, slogans, mascots, etc. that we are accustom to hearing have been a part of those programs tradition and will continue to be far after coaches, players and fans have moved on. With RTB, its not something that will stick past the current tenure. I guess that's what I see as different. I'm sure that most programs have the same types of mantras internally that come and go. Our just seemed to be put out there much more externally.

(07-31-2014 07:45 AM)Cant make this sh t up Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 10:29 PM)ghost bronco Wrote:  Our coach used it to keep going in life after the death of his infant child and tried to instill that type of no quit mentality into the program.

Just to add onto that...RTB stands for life principles Responsibility, Trust and Belief. Very good motto for young men in our community to model their character after. The explanation, of the BOAT and its OARS, makes logical sense (I know here we go again with logic) if you LISTEN and understand the message and make up of the process of ROWING.
I know some of you are open minded enough to actually get it, but some of you aren't. If you know anything about "motivational" companies out their and Positive messages, Rowing and Boats are used quite often.

Stay thirsty my friends and try to comprehend maybe with a beer in your hand!

The explanation and message make perfect sense. My thinking is that its more of an internal message than something that the fan base is going to attach to.

(07-31-2014 08:19 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  

(07-31-2014 07:45 AM)Cant make this sh t up Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 10:29 PM)ghost bronco Wrote:  Our coach used it to keep going in life after the death of his infant child and tried to instill that type of no quit mentality into the program.

Just to add onto that...RTB stands for life principles Responsibility, Trust and Belief. Very good motto for young men in our community to model their character after. The explanation, of the BOAT and its OARS, makes logical sense (I know here we go again with logic) if you LISTEN and understand the message and make up of the process of ROWING.
I know some of you are open minded enough to actually get it, but some of you aren't. If you know anything about "motivational" companies out their and Positive messages, Rowing and Boats are used quite often.

Stay thirsty my friends and try to comprehend maybe with a beer in your hand!

The explanation and message make perfect sense. My thinking is that its more of an internal message than something that the fan base is going to attach to.

Fan bases attach to their school (unless they are self hating) and to winning. If we went 11-1 last season instead of 1-11 all but the real demented PJ Fleck haters would have a wooden oar up in their home office/garage.

Seemingly there are three simultaneous complaints about Fleck that need to be disentangled.

1.) The search. As stated earlier thats not his fault. He showed interest and got the job. Good for him. He doesn't share responsibility for any perceived shortcoming in the administration.

2.) His style, RTB, etc... This is a matter of taste and I think its important to remember that no matter what middle aged guys think of it, it seems to work on the 17 year old kids you need to build a football program. He also brought back brown uniforms. So give him that.

3.) His coaching ability. This I think is fair game and substantively what we should be talking about. He did go 1-11 last season after all and there were lots of problems beyond personal that need to be shored up quickly.

I think at this point in his tenure we need to evaluate him less on points 1 & 2 and more on #3. We could be looking at another tough season with a young team if the in game coaching doesn't improve. Overall though I think we'll be better served to keep him for at least a third year regardless. The way he brings talent in the worst case scenario is that he leaves the table set for the next coach. The best case scenario is that he can coach like he recruits once he gets his players in and then nobody will GaF about RTB or who turned the job down.

(07-31-2014 07:45 AM)Cant make this sh t up Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 10:29 PM)ghost bronco Wrote:  Our coach used it to keep going in life after the death of his infant child and tried to instill that type of no quit mentality into the program.

Just to add onto that...RTB stands for life principles Responsibility, Trust and Belief. Very good motto for young men in our community to model their character after. The explanation, of the BOAT and its OARS, makes logical sense (I know here we go again with logic) if you LISTEN and understand the message and make up of the process of ROWING.
I know some of you are open minded enough to actually get it, but some of you aren't. If you know anything about "motivational" companies out their and Positive messages, Rowing and Boats are used quite often.

Stay thirsty my friends and try to comprehend maybe with a beer in your hand!

I like you, but please, the explanation of what it all is supposed to mean has been out there from day one. And please also understand there are MBA's and PhD's in here, we can comprehend simple statements. The problem is the whole structure of it doesn't really relate to WMU tradition. I tend to think he came up with it related to the Buccaneers. It would have sold well at GVSU. The Hungry Dog and Farmers Alliance is so obviously NIU stuff. And then the whole thing a hard sell from day one.

Trust and Belief? Step One on every con job to do list.

This stuff is all very simplistic, some of it doesn't really rise to the 3rd grade level. The compass relates to the direction of the program? Duh. Give me a break.

(07-30-2014 10:16 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 08:45 PM)ghost bronco Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 08:17 PM)Liam9903 Wrote:  Row the Boat v. Beat the Drum

"But what does a large drum have to do with a train?"

-- Angry old Purdue fans fifty years ago

Ghost has a point. Every tradition started somewhere.

What does an elephant have to do with Crimson Tide?

What does a War Eagle have to do with a Tiger?

Purdue's Big Drum dates back almost 100 years. In the late teens and early 1920s there was something of a arms race among colleges to have the biggest drum at games. By 1921 the biggest was about 4 feet across. Purdue's then band director Spotts Emrick decided to whomp them all by commissioning a massive drum that would put Purdue on top for good. Mission Accomplished! It's been part of Purdue tradition ever since. It's not a mascot per-se but it is a true and lasting Purdue tradition.

Auburn's War Eagle is the title of the school's fight song. Like Purdue drum it is NOT Auburn's mascot. That would be Aubie the Tiger. A live eagle has been used off and on at Auburn football games since 1930, so about 85 years of Auburn tradition.

Alabama's elephant mascot also dates back to 1930. On October 8 of that year, a sportswriter wrote about the previous weekend's Alabama-Ole Miss football game. The writer, using the flair for the dramatic common in sportswriting at the time, wrote that an anonymous fan yelled out "Hold your horses, the elephants are coming!" upon feeling the rumble of the Alabama players running onto the field. The name stuck throughout what became a national championship season and beyond. So, again, about 85 years of tradition behind that one too.

The University of Miami's Ibis mascot goes back even a few years more, to 1926. Sebastian the Ibis was chosen as Miami's unofficial mascot by Nathan Duncan in 1926 when the school's yearbook chose its name to be "The Ibis." Some ignorant individuals think that the Ibis doesn't have anything to do with hurricanes but they are wrong. The Ibis is known for its bravery as a hurricane approaches. Folklore maintains that other birds look to the Ibis for leadership. The Ibis uses its instinct to detect danger. It is the last sign of wildlife to take shelter before a hurricane hits, giving warning that danger is imminent. As the storm passes the Ibis is the first to reappear, a sign that clear skies are approaching. Naturally, the symbol caught on and a relevant and enduring mascot was born.

Great stuff coax. Thanks.

Agree with everything you have said here Liam.

In regards to item 1. My issue in that respect had nothing to do with PJ. It had and will continue to have everything to do with our Athletic Dept and just the way the do business. PJ, just happened to be where the roulette ball landed, its not his fault that our President got involved and that other more desirable candidates weren't interested.

2. As I have stated several times. I think the RTB is stupid, but I am also over it and have moved on. Apparently, his style and approach work to attracting solid recruits to come to WMU. If that's the case, then what does it matter to my old fat @$$

3. You hit the nail on the head with this one. His coaching ability will be 100% fair game this season. Because now all of the talk and rhetoric don't mean a d@mn thing if you cant coach these kids and develop them. While I don't totally agree with the fact that the program was in complete shambles when he arrived, its time to move on from that and start seeing some improvement in the program that we have at hand. We MUST at a minimum be competitive on a weekly basis. Last year, that was not the case. Not even close. And all of the chest bumping and coach speak wont be able to cover up the facts of how competitive they are this year and how much improvement they are making. I don't expect a giant leap in the win column this season, maybe 4 or if lucky 5. But even that along with competing into the 4th quarter of games that they lose would be a step in the right direction.

So now its time for PJ and his staff to show if they have any idea how to coach or not. As for giving him a 3rd season. He isn't going anywhere. The school is too invested at this point and cant afford to make any kind of change. Its really not even worth discussing. Now if after year 3 we are still 4-8 and struggling to compete or if in year 4 we are 5-7 and not progressing with all of the highly touted talent that has gotten so much experience, then we ALL have the right to question his ability.

(07-31-2014 09:28 AM)coax Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 10:16 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 08:45 PM)ghost bronco Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 08:17 PM)Liam9903 Wrote:  Row the Boat v. Beat the Drum

"But what does a large drum have to do with a train?"

-- Angry old Purdue fans fifty years ago

Ghost has a point. Every tradition started somewhere.

What does an elephant have to do with Crimson Tide?

What does a War Eagle have to do with a Tiger?

Purdue's Big Drum dates back almost 100 years. In the late teens and early 1920s there was something of a arms race among colleges to have the biggest drum at games. By 1921 the biggest was about 4 feet across. Purdue's then band director Spotts Emrick decided to whomp them all by commissioning a massive drum that would put Purdue on top for good. Mission Accomplished! It's been part of Purdue tradition ever since. It's not a mascot per-se but it is a true and lasting Purdue tradition.

Auburn's War Eagle is the title of the school's fight song. Like Purdue drum it is NOT Auburn's mascot. That would be Aubie the Tiger. A live eagle has been used off and on at Auburn football games since 1930, so about 85 years of Auburn tradition.

Alabama's elephant mascot also dates back to 1930. On October 8 of that year, a sportswriter wrote about the previous weekend's Alabama-Ole Miss football game. The writer, using the flair for the dramatic common in sportswriting at the time, wrote that an anonymous fan yelled out "Hold your horses, the elephants are coming!" upon feeling the rumble of the Alabama players running onto the field. The name stuck throughout what became a national championship season and beyond. So, again, about 85 years of tradition behind that one too.

The University of Miami's Ibis mascot goes back even a few years more, to 1926. Sebastian the Ibis was chosen as Miami's unofficial mascot by Nathan Duncan in 1926 when the school's yearbook chose its name to be "The Ibis." Some ignorant individuals think that the Ibis doesn't have anything to do with hurricanes but they are wrong. The Ibis is known for its bravery as a hurricane approaches. Folklore maintains that other birds look to the Ibis for leadership. The Ibis uses its instinct to detect danger. It is the last sign of wildlife to take shelter before a hurricane hits, giving warning that danger is imminent. As the storm passes the Ibis is the first to reappear, a sign that clear skies are approaching. Naturally, the symbol caught on and a relevant and enduring mascot was born.

If I recall my Verne Lunquist the War Eagle was some eccentric professors Eagle that escaped and flew around the stadium a couple of time before returning to him before a game once, and then became a thing.

PJ's ability to coach is the only thing I am going to watch with a close eye this year... and with very little benefit of the doubt. Sure we will be young again this year, but we have quite a few players back from last year who have at least one good year under their belt. I know we wont win a ton of games this year, but for the love of boats... I better see a team that looks like it has a plan, and a team that MAKES ADJUSTMENTS as the game goes on...

RTB - Ready To Believe...

(07-31-2014 09:39 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  While I don't totally agree with the fact that the program was in complete shambles when he arrived, its time to move on from that and start seeing some improvement in the program that we have at hand.

I think that the talent level was more shallow than we would have thought, I mean look at the effect that some key injuries had. I agree though that the program was not in shambles it had just lost momentum (and of course part of that is the admin clearly withdrawing support for a coach before they fired him, you can't recruit on a 1 or 2 year contract) but we are where we are. Taking this program down to a total rebuild means that the payoff had better be as good as last year was crappy. We can live through a losing season or two but it had better get us a MAC championship down the road. If PJ's high water mark is a 7 or 8 win season and bowl game then I don't know what all this was for. Time will tell.

(07-31-2014 10:36 AM)Liam9903 Wrote:  

(07-31-2014 09:39 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  While I don't totally agree with the fact that the program was in complete shambles when he arrived, its time to move on from that and start seeing some improvement in the program that we have at hand.

I think that the talent level was more shallow than we would have thought, I mean look at the effect that some key injuries had. I agree though that the program was not in shambles it had just lost momentum (and of course part of that is the admin clearly withdrawing support for a coach before they fired him, you can't recruit on a 1 or 2 year contract) but we are where we are. Taking this program down to a total rebuild means that the payoff had better be as good as last year was crappy. We can live through a losing season or two but it had better get us a MAC championship down the road. If PJ's high water mark is a 7 or 8 win season and bowl game then I don't know what all this was for. Time will tell.

Beyond the injuries last year I really think PJ was trying to get some of the young guns in there so as to jump start the experience level on the roster for the years to come... This came at a cost... the fundamentals of the young guys was limited last year. I think we had a whole year of kids second guessing themselves and appearing a step slow and out of place... This is a cost that hopefully shows benefit this year as now we have a full load of players ready to be teachers this year to the younger guys... Last year, everyone was a student to the coaching staff.

We're favored to lose by less than 2 TDs: +12.5

http://www.oddsshark.com/ncaaf/odds

Wouldn't it be sweet if we won? If we win I'm going to make shirts online (and show people the link) about PJ the unstoppable DJ! :)

Hey, it was 13 at one point. Glad to see we're improving.

(07-30-2014 11:47 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  Nursery rhyme? That's kind of a stretch. Rowing is grueling sport with no connection to children's nursery rhymes.

If there's no connection of PJ's Row The Boat to a child's nursery rhyme then why was the nursery rhyme song played over the loudspeakers at Waldo last year to kick off the 3rd Quarter?