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Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #21
Re: RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 09:31 AM)CommuterBob Wrote:  And not detailed in Dodd's article - and seemingly passed over by others - is the fact that the P5 will have a 2-to-1 majority in voting on FBS legislation in addition to the areas of autonomy. Essentially, they have total control over FBS and the G5 have no say at all - and they really don't even need to have consensus among the P5 to enact changes. They only need 4 of the 5.

Ultimately that is not going to work. An "association" where some members have zero power to represent their own interests even if they all vote together....can't last.
04-21-2014 10:30 AM
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bearcatfan Offline
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
Who put these people in charge? I have to believe sooner or later some school or schools will challenge (lawsuits) what the so called P5 are doing.
04-21-2014 10:30 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Re: RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 10:30 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Who put these people in charge? I have to believe sooner or later some school or schools will challenge (lawsuits) what the so called P5 are doing.

Private voluntary organizations can make their own unfair rules if they want. The only issue I see would be whether or not NCAA is really that voluntary.
04-21-2014 10:59 AM
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msm96wolf Offline
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-19-2014 03:05 PM)BE4evah Wrote:  If the way that you guys have describe it is true ie, the power 5 schools get to make changes, and then on some issues the Aac can only make changes if all of the conferences agree, how is that fair?

Aresco needs to come out now and put a stop to it.

If not, poster upstater from Uconn is right. This smells of a lawsuit.

Incidentally, why Aresco would ever voluntarily let the P5 seperate themselves in the first place is mind boggling.

And how does Notre Dame get to be part of this? This is craziness.

The real question, can all the schools of the G5 stay united? I can easily see the SB, CUSA and MAC vote for this if it keeps their away game paychecks and shot at an access slot. It will be hard to cry foul if even of simple majority of the G5 votes with the P5. Instead of Aresco yelling he needs to be getting the G5 united. I don't see it happening, but that would be the wise move. I give the P5 credit, they are using the G5 against each other.
04-21-2014 11:30 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Re: RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 11:30 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(04-19-2014 03:05 PM)BE4evah Wrote:  If the way that you guys have describe it is true ie, the power 5 schools get to make changes, and then on some issues the Aac can only make changes if all of the conferences agree, how is that fair?

Aresco needs to come out now and put a stop to it.

If not, poster upstater from Uconn is right. This smells of a lawsuit.

Incidentally, why Aresco would ever voluntarily let the P5 seperate themselves in the first place is mind boggling.

And how does Notre Dame get to be part of this? This is craziness.

The real question, can all the schools of the G5 stay united? I can easily see the SB, CUSA and MAC vote for this if it keeps their away game paychecks and shot at an access slot. It will be hard to cry foul if even of simple majority of the G5 votes with the P5. Instead of Aresco yelling he needs to be getting the G5 united. I don't see it happening, but that would be the wise move. I give the P5 credit, they are using the G5 against each other.

Who wants to lead a charge against the P5?

A lot of these G5 commissioners, coaches, Presidents, and AD's hope to get hired into the P5 someday. Who wants to void their own lottery ticket by leading the charge against them?
04-21-2014 11:36 AM
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msm96wolf Offline
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
For the Record, I am happy P5 fan. I don't see it as a right play for the individual, but I am an evil capitalist. But looking at in the Macro perspective, if the G5 wants to stay relevant, they need to stick together. As Ben Franklin stated, "We need to to hang together or we will surely hang separately" I actually prefer a split back to the old 1a and 1aa. Know I am in the minority on that opinion but I think there should only be about 70-75 D1 schools.
04-21-2014 11:47 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Re: RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 11:47 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  For the Record, I am happy P5 fan. I don't see it as a right play for the individual, but I am an evil capitalist. But looking at in the Macro perspective, if the G5 wants to stay relevant, they need to stick together. As Ben Franklin stated, "We need to to hang together or we will surely hang separately" I actually prefer a split back to the old 1a and 1aa. Know I am in the minority on that opinion but I think there should only be about 70-75 D1 schools.

There is nothing wrong with evil capitalism in professional leagues. But it is destroying non-professional college sports.
04-21-2014 11:54 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 10:59 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:30 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Who put these people in charge? I have to believe sooner or later some school or schools will challenge (lawsuits) what the so called P5 are doing.

Private voluntary organizations can make their own unfair rules if they want. The only issue I see would be whether or not NCAA is really that voluntary.

Considering that there are other organizations out there, (NAIA, USCAA) yeah it can be considered voluntary.
04-21-2014 11:57 AM
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shere khan Offline
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
this isnt about dumping the fbs schools, this is about keeping dipshit schools like the C7 and A10 that wanna be big time half way from being able to vote on football matters.. I have said it a thousand times. If you dont play d1 football you shouldnt be allowed to play d1 basketball. this goes for many of the recent d1-aa to d1 move ups..like the mac and the sunbelt and half of cusa. they should still be d1-aa.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2014 12:03 PM by shere khan.)
04-21-2014 11:59 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #30
Re: RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 11:57 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:59 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:30 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Who put these people in charge? I have to believe sooner or later some school or schools will challenge (lawsuits) what the so called P5 are doing.

Private voluntary organizations can make their own unfair rules if they want. The only issue I see would be whether or not NCAA is really that voluntary.

Considering that there are other organizations out there, (NAIA, USCAA) yeah it can be considered voluntary.

Just because there are other organizations in existence doesn't necessarily make it voluntary.
04-21-2014 12:02 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 12:02 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 11:57 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:59 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:30 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Who put these people in charge? I have to believe sooner or later some school or schools will challenge (lawsuits) what the so called P5 are doing.

Private voluntary organizations can make their own unfair rules if they want. The only issue I see would be whether or not NCAA is really that voluntary.

Considering that there are other organizations out there, (NAIA, USCAA) yeah it can be considered voluntary.

Just because there are other organizations in existence doesn't necessarily make it voluntary.

I believe it does, a school can join the NAIA if it wants to, but they voluntarily chose to be part of the NCAA.
04-21-2014 12:04 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 11:47 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  For the Record, I am happy P5 fan. I don't see it as a right play for the individual, but I am an evil capitalist. But looking at in the Macro perspective, if the G5 wants to stay relevant, they need to stick together. As Ben Franklin stated, "We need to to hang together or we will surely hang separately" I actually prefer a split back to the old 1a and 1aa. Know I am in the minority on that opinion but I think there should only be about 70-75 D1 schools.

Most P5 "fans" under value the investment being made at non P5 schools and over value investments P5 schools are actually making.

Look at UCF. They borrowed a ton of money to finance a new football stadium and basketball arena and built them at basically the same time. How many P5 schools have borrowed that kind of money.

If you are going to put a cap on the number of schools....then there would be some in the P5 that would drop out if we just look at the numbers. The media and many in the P5 just gloss over the fact that there is no real definition of a P5 program. P5 programs are there because they were invited to a particular conference for a variety of reasons...or maybe they have just been there for a really long time.
04-21-2014 12:05 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #33
Re: RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 12:04 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 12:02 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 11:57 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:59 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 10:30 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Who put these people in charge? I have to believe sooner or later some school or schools will challenge (lawsuits) what the so called P5 are doing.

Private voluntary organizations can make their own unfair rules if they want. The only issue I see would be whether or not NCAA is really that voluntary.

Considering that there are other organizations out there, (NAIA, USCAA) yeah it can be considered voluntary.

Just because there are other organizations in existence doesn't necessarily make it voluntary.

I believe it does, a school can join the NAIA if it wants to, but they voluntarily chose to be part of the NCAA.

This is how fans think but not necessarily how judges think.

Is the NAIA a valid alternative to the NCAA in terms of access to the college football marketplace?

I could start Joe's College Football Association with an HQ and everything. Would that be seen by a judge as a valid and viable and reasonable alternative to the NCAA?

Maybe, maybe not.
04-21-2014 12:12 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
I love the let's take to court talk. Don't you think the NCAA lawyers are looking at how to get this pass the court? If the vast members vote for it, how can those who lose the vote complain? Does this not have to get the votes first to allow this to happen? Reminds of the the USFL vs NFL, USFL won the Antitrust suit for what, a whole 3 dollars.
04-21-2014 01:16 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 11:59 AM)shere khan Wrote:  this isnt about dumping the fbs schools, this is about keeping dipshit schools like the C7 and A10 that wanna be big time half way from being able to vote on football matters.. I have said it a thousand times. If you dont play d1 football you shouldnt be allowed to play d1 basketball. this goes for many of the recent d1-aa to d1 move ups..like the mac and the sunbelt and half of cusa. they should still be d1-aa.

Huh? Umass is the only recent move-up for the MAC and they're gone in 2 years. Other than that Buffalo moved up in 1999. NIU's been in the conference for about 30 years and we're one of the newbies.
04-21-2014 01:26 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 01:16 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  I love the let's take to court talk. Don't you think the NCAA lawyers are looking at how to get this pass the court? If the vast members vote for it, how can those who lose the vote complain? Does this not have to get the votes first to allow this to happen? Reminds of the the USFL vs NFL, USFL won the Antitrust suit for what, a whole 3 dollars.

The NCAA is being sued right as we speak on the basis of rules that were voted for by the current membership. The NCAA can be sued. My guess is that the NCAA would get sued on the whole "permissive" and "actionable" portion of P5 autonomy for preventing schools from implementing any P5 rules that the G5 schools are willing to pay for. Such a suit could come from the schools or the athletes at those schools--or both.
04-21-2014 01:47 PM
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 01:16 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  I love the let's take to court talk. Don't you think the NCAA lawyers are looking at how to get this pass the court? If the vast members vote for it, how can those who lose the vote complain? Does this not have to get the votes first to allow this to happen? Reminds of the the USFL vs NFL, USFL won the Antitrust suit for what, a whole 3 dollars.

Yes, it doesn't make sense at all to wish/hope for some type of legal or political intervention to save the G5. Just look at how college sports have evolved in the past 30 years since the University of Oklahoma case that blew up the NCAA's restrictions on TV rights. What that Supreme Court case effectively stated was that the NCAA putting curbs on power school voting power and money is actually MORE of an antitrust violation than the power schools maximizing every single cent in the marketplace to the complete exclusion of the non-power schools. Believe it or not, in the eyes of the law, the "equal access" NCAA Tournament is a bigger potential antitrust violation than the old BCS/new CFP football system.

Note that the antitrust law does NOT protect financial equality. This is the mistake that I always see laypeople make. Instead, antitrust law is in place to protect the free market, which inherently ends up with anything but financial equality. (Indeed, financial equality can typically only be achieved by interfering with the free market itself.) In order for the G5 to win an antitrust case, they need to show that the P5 is actually taking money *away* from the G5 that they would otherwise be making in a real free market. That has always been the problem for the G5 (or formerly non-AQ) conferences - the market analysis showed that that the old BCS system actually made the non-power schools more than what they would have made in a pure free market. This means that the G5 can't show damages (just as the USFL couldn't show damages against the NFL and were awarded only $3 even though they technically "won") and why lawsuits are always threatened but NEVER filed.
04-21-2014 01:48 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 01:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 01:16 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  I love the let's take to court talk. Don't you think the NCAA lawyers are looking at how to get this pass the court? If the vast members vote for it, how can those who lose the vote complain? Does this not have to get the votes first to allow this to happen? Reminds of the the USFL vs NFL, USFL won the Antitrust suit for what, a whole 3 dollars.

The NCAA is being sued right as we speak on the basis of rules that were voted for by the current membership. The NCAA can be sued. My guess is that the NCAA would get sued on the whole "permissive" and "actionable" portion of P5 autonomy for preventing schools from implementing any P5 rules that the G5 schools are willing to pay for. Such a suit could come from the schools or the athletes at those schools--or both.

Possible, but I truly don't think this is a game for the P5. The threat that the P5 would separate from the NCAA is very real if this legislation isn't passed and, regardless of the bluster of the G5 in (mistakenly) thinking that they could go it alone, the G5 absolutely wants nothing to do with that happening (if only to protect the NCAA Tournament). The P5 hold all the cards here: they are effectively stating that these rules need to be passed or they're going to leave. A lawsuit blocking these rules would simply get the P5 to leave (and then the "actionable" and "permissive" distinctions become irrelevant).
04-21-2014 01:53 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #39
RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
I think the lawsuit may wind up being against the non FBS playing conferences rather than the P5 conferences. I think ironically the Big East and the AAC would be on the same side of that lawsuit quite frankly.....
04-21-2014 02:01 PM
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RE: Autonomy Defined--Dennis Dodd CBS-Sports
(04-21-2014 01:48 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-21-2014 01:16 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  I love the let's take to court talk. Don't you think the NCAA lawyers are looking at how to get this pass the court? If the vast members vote for it, how can those who lose the vote complain? Does this not have to get the votes first to allow this to happen? Reminds of the the USFL vs NFL, USFL won the Antitrust suit for what, a whole 3 dollars.

Yes, it doesn't make sense at all to wish/hope for some type of legal or political intervention to save the G5. Just look at how college sports have evolved in the past 30 years since the University of Oklahoma case that blew up the NCAA's restrictions on TV rights. What that Supreme Court case effectively stated was that the NCAA putting curbs on power school voting power and money is actually MORE of an antitrust violation than the power schools maximizing every single cent in the marketplace to the complete exclusion of the non-power schools. Believe it or not, in the eyes of the law, the "equal access" NCAA Tournament is a bigger potential antitrust violation than the old BCS/new CFP football system.

Note that the antitrust law does NOT protect financial equality. This is the mistake that I always see laypeople make. Instead, antitrust law is in place to protect the free market, which inherently ends up with anything but financial equality. (Indeed, financial equality can typically only be achieved by interfering with the free market itself.) In order for the G5 to win an antitrust case, they need to show that the P5 is actually taking money *away* from the G5 that they would otherwise be making in a real free market. That has always been the problem for the G5 (or formerly non-AQ) conferences - the market analysis showed that that the old BCS system actually made the non-power schools more than what they would have made in a pure free market. This means that the G5 can't show damages (just as the USFL couldn't show damages against the NFL and were awarded only $3 even though they technically "won") and why lawsuits are always threatened but NEVER filed.

Thanks Frank ... you always (or so it seems) post the best stuff.
04-21-2014 02:05 PM
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