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Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
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Ramen_Tiger Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
(04-13-2014 09:27 AM)bearcats5 Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:52 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 07:53 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Dunphy needs to go
Pastner needs to go
Dickey needs to go


Ollie, Cronin, and Brown are legit

Pastner is much maligned, but actual facts tell a different story:

1. Pastner inherited a terrible mess after Calipair left. He stripped the program right down to the snow cone machine.

2. Memphis joins Cincy as two of only 15 teams that have made the NCAA tournament the last four years. Cronin did not even make the NCAA Tourney at Cincy until his 5th year.

3. Cronin record at Cincy for his first five years was 87 wins and 77 defeats (53%) Pastner's record at Memphis is 130-44 (74.7%).

4. The average RPI for Memphis during Pastner's tenure is 30. Cincy had a 42 average RPI during the past 5 years.

5. Pastner won 2 NCAA tourney games at Memphis. Cronin won one during his first five years.

6. The Tigers APR was 99.5 for 2012 (the latest available) while the Bearcats APR was 95.5 for 2012.


Conclusion: If you think Pastner needs to go, then so should Cronin either now or after his 5th year based on actual performance.

If you think Pastner inherited a terrible mess at Memphis, go back and take a look at what the situation was that Cronin stepped into at UC. Rebuilding in the Big East vs. rebuilding in C-USA during that time period is completely different, too (even if both rebuilding jobs were the same, which they weren't--Cronin arguably had the biggest rebuilding task in major conference basketball in recent memory, probably only rivaled by what Crean took over at Indiana). While Pastner may have stepped into a less than ideal situation, comparing Pastner's five years to Cronin's first five (which you did for basically all but one point) are completely different for several reasons. Not saying anything for or against Pastner here, just saying that that way of comparing the two isn't the way to go. Surely, Memphis fans can remember that first meeting in Cronin's tenure as sort of a reference to how far back UC was set at that time.

He factored in to you guys playing in the Big East or did you choose to ignore that?
04-13-2014 10:14 AM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
(04-13-2014 09:27 AM)bearcats5 Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:52 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 07:53 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Dunphy needs to go
Pastner needs to go
Dickey needs to go


Ollie, Cronin, and Brown are legit

Pastner is much maligned, but actual facts tell a different story:

1. Pastner inherited a terrible mess after Calipair left. He stripped the program right down to the snow cone machine.

2. Memphis joins Cincy as two of only 15 teams that have made the NCAA tournament the last four years. Cronin did not even make the NCAA Tourney at Cincy until his 5th year.

3. Cronin record at Cincy for his first five years was 87 wins and 77 defeats (53%) Pastner's record at Memphis is 130-44 (74.7%).

4. The average RPI for Memphis during Pastner's tenure is 30. Cincy had a 42 average RPI during the past 5 years.

5. Pastner won 2 NCAA tourney games at Memphis. Cronin won one during his first five years.

6. The Tigers APR was 99.5 for 2012 (the latest available) while the Bearcats APR was 95.5 for 2012.


Conclusion: If you think Pastner needs to go, then so should Cronin either now or after his 5th year based on actual performance.

If you think Pastner inherited a terrible mess at Memphis, go back and take a look at what the situation was that Cronin stepped into at UC. Rebuilding in the Big East vs. rebuilding in C-USA during that time period is completely different, too (even if both rebuilding jobs were the same, which they weren't--Cronin arguably had the biggest rebuilding task in major conference basketball in recent memory, probably only rivaled by what Crean took over at Indiana). While Pastner may have stepped into a less than ideal situation, comparing Pastner's five years to Cronin's first five (which you did for basically all but one point) are completely different for several reasons. Not saying anything for or against Pastner here, just saying that that way of comparing the two isn't the way to go. Surely, Memphis fans can remember that first meeting in Cronin's tenure as sort of a reference to how far back UC was set at that time.

We will just have to disagree concerning the degree of difficulty each coach inherited. You appear to view the BE as a burden and I see it as an opportunity to rebuild faster (due to more resources, exposure, and better games).

Please understand, I think Cronin has done a good job and I have respect for the Cincy program and tradition. However, close examination of the facts states that Pastner has performed at a level comparable to Cronin. It is intellectually dishonest, IMO, to call for the extreme measure of axing Pastner while placing Cronin in the exalted company of this years' NC coach and a HOF coach.

I will comment no further on this topic in this thread because I do not wish to sow discord in a pointless back and forth.
04-13-2014 10:39 AM
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tnzazz Offline
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Post: #103
Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
Our front court is going to be nasty next year. If our guards play well, then we will be the surprise team of the AAC.
04-13-2014 10:48 AM
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oldtiger Away
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Post: #104
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
(04-13-2014 10:11 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  
(04-13-2014 09:57 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 08:39 PM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  ..... Pastner has something special with this group of players coming in next year....

You rip on what outsiders say of Memphis..yet every off season, Memphis fans say the exact thing above...as Pastner brings in 4-5 star recruits/transfers yet the team never lives up to their hype.

There is no hype about this group. I like the pieces that have been assembled for it. Just a bunch of guys who love to go all out on the court. I see this group as a group that will hustle their butts off on the court.

When I said he had something special I was talking about the màjority of the attitude of the players who are very coach able and do whatever the coach wants them to do. I am very excited for this new era.

But, we do have to acknowledge that what Knightlight says is true with some of our fan base. Every offseason, a large number of our fans set expectations that are higher than we achieve. I think that it's happened every year except his first 2 (NIT appearance with a cobbled together roster NCAA appearance with a very controversial last second no-call against AZ)

We can't ignore that a large number of fans have set expectations (realistic or not) that haven't been met. I may not agree with Knightlight on some things, but we can't ignore what he's saying here; there is validity to his comment about some of the fan base. We may explain fan comments away through inexperience, etc; but we can't ignore that the underlying fan critical remarks are there.

Josh has some work to do in game management and possibly game prep. I'm not saying that he can't get it done, he should be on the hot (or even warm) seat, or even be on this discussion list, but he's got some long-term work to do.....and I'm sure that you agree.
04-13-2014 07:08 PM
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oldtiger Away
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Post: #105
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
(04-13-2014 09:27 AM)bearcats5 Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:52 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 07:53 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Dunphy needs to go
Pastner needs to go
Dickey needs to go


Ollie, Cronin, and Brown are legit

Pastner is much maligned, but actual facts tell a different story:

1. Pastner inherited a terrible mess after Calipair left. He stripped the program right down to the snow cone machine.

2. Memphis joins Cincy as two of only 15 teams that have made the NCAA tournament the last four years. Cronin did not even make the NCAA Tourney at Cincy until his 5th year.

3. Cronin record at Cincy for his first five years was 87 wins and 77 defeats (53%) Pastner's record at Memphis is 130-44 (74.7%).

4. The average RPI for Memphis during Pastner's tenure is 30. Cincy had a 42 average RPI during the past 5 years.

5. Pastner won 2 NCAA tourney games at Memphis. Cronin won one during his first five years.

6. The Tigers APR was 99.5 for 2012 (the latest available) while the Bearcats APR was 95.5 for 2012.


Conclusion: If you think Pastner needs to go, then so should Cronin either now or after his 5th year based on actual performance.

If you think Pastner inherited a terrible mess at Memphis, go back and take a look at what the situation was that Cronin stepped into at UC. Rebuilding in the Big East vs. rebuilding in C-USA during that time period is completely different, too (even if both rebuilding jobs were the same, which they weren't--Cronin arguably had the biggest rebuilding task in major conference basketball in recent memory, probably only rivaled by what Crean took over at Indiana). While Pastner may have stepped into a less than ideal situation, comparing Pastner's five years to Cronin's first five (which you did for basically all but one point) are completely different for several reasons. Not saying anything for or against Pastner here, just saying that that way of comparing the two isn't the way to go. Surely, Memphis fans can remember that first meeting in Cronin's tenure as sort of a reference to how far back UC was set at that time.

They both had difficult jobs. You can make the case that the Big East was a more difficult league and therefore harder to rebuild in because of the competition ---- or ---- you can make the case that the Big East was easier to rebuild in because you were recruiting "to play in" the Big East.

I think that Cincy had less players left on their roster, so Cronin had a somewhat harder rebuilding job; but don't try to discredit the job that Josh accomplished in his rebuilding challenge. Almost no one is going to agree with you if you don't acknowledge the challenging job he had in front of him.
04-13-2014 07:14 PM
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Ramen_Tiger Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
(04-13-2014 07:08 PM)oldtiger Wrote:  
(04-13-2014 10:11 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  
(04-13-2014 09:57 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 08:39 PM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  ..... Pastner has something special with this group of players coming in next year....

You rip on what outsiders say of Memphis..yet every off season, Memphis fans say the exact thing above...as Pastner brings in 4-5 star recruits/transfers yet the team never lives up to their hype.

There is no hype about this group. I like the pieces that have been assembled for it. Just a bunch of guys who love to go all out on the court. I see this group as a group that will hustle their butts off on the court.

When I said he had something special I was talking about the màjority of the attitude of the players who are very coach able and do whatever the coach wants them to do. I am very excited for this new era.

But, we do have to acknowledge that what Knightlight says is true with some of our fan base. Every offseason, a large number of our fans set expectations that are higher than we achieve. I think that it's happened every year except his first 2 (NIT appearance with a cobbled together roster NCAA appearance with a very controversial last second no-call against AZ)

We can't ignore that a large number of fans have set expectations (realistic or not) that haven't been met. I may not agree with Knightlight on some things, but we can't ignore what he's saying here; there is validity to his comment about some of the fan base. We may explain fan comments away through inexperience, etc; but we can't ignore that the underlying fan critical remarks are there.

Josh has some work to do in game management and possibly game prep. I'm not saying that he can't get it done, he should be on the hot (or even warm) seat, or even be on this discussion list, but he's got some long-term work to do.....and I'm sure that you agree.

I agree. I just like this group from a attitude standpoint. Seems like a lot of tough minded kids. They will be fine in time
04-13-2014 08:03 PM
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Bearcat04 Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
Comparing the situation Cronin walked into to what Pastner inherited is laughable. Mick had to deal with a severely fractured fan base and he didn't have the luxury of an NBA arena and a top 15 budget. Having said that, I think Pastner did a fine job this year.
04-14-2014 12:20 AM
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KnightLight Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
(04-14-2014 12:20 AM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  Comparing the situation Cronin walked into to what Pastner inherited is laughable. Mick had to deal with a severely fractured fan base and he didn't have the luxury of an NBA arena and a top 15 budget. Having said that, I think Pastner did a fine job this year.

Agree.

Who knew that this even was a potential topic for discussion.
04-14-2014 06:57 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Does Ollie raise the stakes for Pastner, Cronin, Dunphy?
Pastner and Cronin have both done a good job at their respective schools and are in no danger of anything. The guy for whom Ollie has really raised the bar is Dunphy.

When Dunphy took over from Chaney, he built the Temple program back up by recruiting Philadephia area kids who he he either got to first before bigger programs discovered them or who had slipped under the radar and had been overlooked by bigger programs. A coach can do that when he coaches in a talent-rich area like Philly.

That strategy worked fine in the A10 where there was a limit on the level of talent at the other competing schools. Dunphy is a good coach and had enough talent to stay at or near the top of that conference. But even in his best years, Temple had a ceiling. Despite getting to the tournament for 6 straight years, they could never get out of the first weekend.

Dunphy is not a recruiter and that's going to hurt him in the A10. He simply can't do things the same way and compete with the top teams in this conference. And he's probably too old to change his ways. UConn, Memphis, and Cincinnati have been competing at a whole different level and it appears that SMU is joining them. That leaves Temple as a middle of the pack team in the AAC in their best years.

I assume that Temple wants to stay relevant. They have a great tradition, dating back to their national championship in the 1930's, their Final Fours in the 1950's, their NIT title in the 1960's, and their string of Elite 8's from the late 1980's through the early 2000's. They are a basketball school first and foremost.

If Ollie has raised the bar for anyone, it's Dunphy. If Temple wants to stay true to their basketball roots, it's time for them to change coaches.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2014 09:10 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
04-14-2014 09:09 AM
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