(11-28-2013 02:05 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 01:24 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 01:39 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:50 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 06:00 PM)LouPower Wrote:  At this moment, nobody fills that mold.

Saint Louis does.

How is that? Dayton has more NCAAT appearances from 2000 on (4 to 3). SLU has more NCAAT appearances from 1990 on (6 to 5).

I'm not sure how SLU fits that mold more than UD. I'm pretty sure Dayton has the larger attendance and budget. St. Louis is a new and larger market than Dayton, but that's about all they seemingly have in their favor.

How is that? Let's see, a catholic school in a large metropolitan area who's primary focus us basketball. Hmmmmm how does that fit the other schools of this conference?

Seriously, do you know what this league is about?

Everything you just listed describes the Univ. of Dayton as well. I think that was his point.

As if they didn't even bother reading my comparison of the schools.

(11-28-2013 05:32 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 02:05 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 01:24 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 01:39 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:50 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Saint Louis does.

How is that? Dayton has more NCAAT appearances from 2000 on (4 to 3). SLU has more NCAAT appearances from 1990 on (6 to 5).

I'm not sure how SLU fits that mold more than UD. I'm pretty sure Dayton has the larger attendance and budget. St. Louis is a new and larger market than Dayton, but that's about all they seemingly have in their favor.

How is that? Let's see, a catholic school in a large metropolitan area who's primary focus us basketball. Hmmmmm how does that fit the other schools of this conference?

Seriously, do you know what this league is about?

Everything you just listed describes the Univ. of Dayton as well. I think that was his point.

As if they didn't even bother reading my comparison of the schools.

No, we read it. We just think Saint Louis fits better, NCAA appearances mean nothing when talking about partnering up with someone for the next 30+ years. Xavier already has that market. Yes, Dayton and Cincinnati will soon be merged into one TV market. Thats why Saint Louis is a much better fit. They deliver a much bigger market and one that isn't already in the leagues footprint.

Your comparison is about NCAA appearances and wins which in the long run mean little. Also Saint Louis just won the A-10 prior to it losing any teams. Thats saying something. Dayton hasn't said anything like that in a while now.

(11-28-2013 03:17 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 02:15 PM)LouPower Wrote:  St. Louis is a much bigger market than Dayton.

That said, they stopped at 10 for a reason.

i think its a forgone conclusion that st louis u is #11,
my guess is that the appeal of having a round robin with 10 was greater than going with 11 while they sorted out #12. Also losing 6 teams at the same time would be damaging to the a10. IMO that also played a part in the delay

I'm curious why you think that. I haven't read anything out of the conference itself to indicate that. Just a lot of speculation. Have you come across anything?

It seems to me that the conference has held things pretty close to the vest with very little if anything leaking out.

(11-29-2013 05:17 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 03:17 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 02:15 PM)LouPower Wrote:  St. Louis is a much bigger market than Dayton.

That said, they stopped at 10 for a reason.

i think its a forgone conclusion that st louis u is #11,
my guess is that the appeal of having a round robin with 10 was greater than going with 11 while they sorted out #12. Also losing 6 teams at the same time would be damaging to the a10. IMO that also played a part in the delay

I'm curious why you think that. I haven't read anything out of the conference itself to indicate that. Just a lot of speculation. Have you come across anything?

It seems to me that the conference has held things pretty close to the vest with very little if anything leaking out.

I havent read anything to confirm they held off to spare the a10. Its just a gut feeling i have that the schools of the c7 know all too well what its like to almost have you league and perhaps future crumble down around you. Maybe im a little naive in this regard, but i think as a group they didnt want to put the A10 through the same ringer that the c7 and the fb schools now in the american went thru.
its known which schools are in the site of the BE. the A10 (more than likely) now has time to prepare and develop a more calculated plan. had temple,charlotte,butler,xavier, slu and school#6 all bolted the same year what would that have done to the a10?(perceived or in reality)
maybe im reading more into this than is there. i think creighton was picked in 1st round in part as a signal or sign (mostly to slu) that the conference boundaries extend beyond missouri. A western outpost in omaha imo gives hope to others that are still in mix. if stl was chosen in 1st round, some might have read that as "the western boundary of the BE ends in St Louis and that omaha was too far away. we now know omaha isnt too far.
like i said, just my hunch i have no inside info or any source to back up my opinion

(11-29-2013 05:11 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(11-29-2013 05:17 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 03:17 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(11-28-2013 02:15 PM)LouPower Wrote:  St. Louis is a much bigger market than Dayton.

That said, they stopped at 10 for a reason.

i think its a forgone conclusion that st louis u is #11,
my guess is that the appeal of having a round robin with 10 was greater than going with 11 while they sorted out #12. Also losing 6 teams at the same time would be damaging to the a10. IMO that also played a part in the delay

I'm curious why you think that. I haven't read anything out of the conference itself to indicate that. Just a lot of speculation. Have you come across anything?

It seems to me that the conference has held things pretty close to the vest with very little if anything leaking out.

I havent read anything to confirm they held off to spare the a10. Its just a gut feeling i have that the schools of the c7 know all too well what its like to almost have you league and perhaps future crumble down around you. Maybe im a little naive in this regard, but i think as a group they didnt want to put the A10 through the same ringer that the c7 and the fb schools now in the american went thru.
its known which schools are in the site of the BE. the A10 (more than likely) now has time to prepare and develop a more calculated plan. had temple,charlotte,butler,xavier, slu and school#6 all bolted the same year what would that have done to the a10?(perceived or in reality)
maybe im reading more into this than is there. i think creighton was picked in 1st round in part as a signal or sign (mostly to slu) that the conference boundaries extend beyond missouri. A western outpost in omaha imo gives hope to others that are still in mix. if stl was chosen in 1st round, some might have read that as "the western boundary of the BE ends in St Louis and that omaha was too far away. we now know omaha isnt too far.
like i said, just my hunch i have no inside info or any source to back up my opinion

Thanks for the explanation. Greatly appreciate that you shared your thoughts.

So many are treating this as though it's a foregone conclusion that St Louis is #11 as though this is a known fact. I respect that you're saying it's a hunch based on the way you read the signals. I can accept that.

When I hear people speaking about St Louis as a done deal, I'm trying to figure out where they're getting that. I've followed this pretty closely and I can't find any indication from within the conference that this is the case.

It's cool, Red guy. Just alter your talking points midway through.

(11-30-2013 10:23 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  It's cool, Red guy. Just alter your talking points midway through.

What did I alter?

The Big East doesn't need St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, etc. Stay at 10.

(12-07-2013 08:01 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  The Big East doesn't need St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, etc. Stay at 10.

I agree. But there have already been conference insiders who have been quoted as saying that the conference will in fact expand within the next few years. That's what fuels the speculation.

I've said it before, and I still stand by my information. Dayton has been contacted by the Big East and is, in fact, prepping to be invited. I expected it to happen in the first go around, but I certainly expect it in the 2nd go around.

Granted, my information comes from the academic side but they've been told to start working with Big East institutions in academic affairs due to pending conference changes. That seems to be as straight forward as can be.

Obviously anything can change when it comes to college athletics... but that seems to be about as golden as you can be without the paperwork signed, sealed, and delivered.

(12-09-2013 10:27 AM)mlb Wrote:  I've said it before, and I still stand by my information. Dayton has been contacted by the Big East and is, in fact, prepping to be invited. I expected it to happen in the first go around, but I certainly expect it in the 2nd go around.

Granted, my information comes from the academic side but they've been told to start working with Big East institutions in academic affairs due to pending conference changes. That seems to be as straight forward as can be.

Obviously anything can change when it comes to college athletics... but that seems to be about as golden as you can be without the paperwork signed, sealed, and delivered.

The Big East is not expanding.

(12-09-2013 11:10 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 10:27 AM)mlb Wrote:  I've said it before, and I still stand by my information. Dayton has been contacted by the Big East and is, in fact, prepping to be invited. I expected it to happen in the first go around, but I certainly expect it in the 2nd go around.

Granted, my information comes from the academic side but they've been told to start working with Big East institutions in academic affairs due to pending conference changes. That seems to be as straight forward as can be.

Obviously anything can change when it comes to college athletics... but that seems to be about as golden as you can be without the paperwork signed, sealed, and delivered.

The Big East is not expanding.

The Big East does not need the Dayton market. They do not need to expand, nor should they.

(12-11-2013 08:31 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 11:10 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 10:27 AM)mlb Wrote:  I've said it before, and I still stand by my information. Dayton has been contacted by the Big East and is, in fact, prepping to be invited. I expected it to happen in the first go around, but I certainly expect it in the 2nd go around.

Granted, my information comes from the academic side but they've been told to start working with Big East institutions in academic affairs due to pending conference changes. That seems to be as straight forward as can be.

Obviously anything can change when it comes to college athletics... but that seems to be about as golden as you can be without the paperwork signed, sealed, and delivered.

The Big East is not expanding.

The Big East does not need the Dayton market. They do not need to expand, nor should they.

I agree, but Big East insiders have publicly stated that they intend to do so.

The Big East didn't need the Omaha market, but they took Creighton because of their high attendance and intense fan support, which has translated into high ticket sales for the big east tournament in March. Dayton is the same kind of program and therefore can't be ignored.

As far as market is concerned, Dayton is not a commuter school. I don't know what it's market is, but if it's like other private schools, it's more likely regional than just local. It's up to the commissioner's office and Fox to do the research to determine just what their market is and whether it helps the conference. It's not a valid assumption to say that all they bring is the city of Dayton. They are the largest private university in Ohio.

(12-12-2013 08:29 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  As far as market is concerned, Dayton is not a commuter school. I don't know what it's market is, but if it's like other private schools, it's more likely regional than just local. It's up to the commissioner's office and Fox to do the research to determine just what their market is and whether it helps the conference. It's not a valid assumption to say that all they bring is the city of Dayton. They are the largest private university in Ohio.

Dayton is a larger school than Xavier, with a larger fan base too. Yes, it is in a smaller city than Cincinnati, but the pockets are deep in their alumni. There are probably as many Dayton fans as Ohio State fans going to their only competitor in town, Wright State University.

I know I'm biased, but if you take out the recent tournament success by Xavier then I don't see how you can think that Xavier is any better than Dayton. Both have great histories, both draw well (although Dayton has, as long as I have been alive, never been outdrawn by Xavier), Dayton owns its market while Xavier draws much lower ratings in Cincinnati than UC. There is a reason why UC gets the higher billing on both teams' flagship station (700 WLW)... when they are playing at the same time XU gets pushed to a lower level station and UC is broadcast on the 50,000 Watt flamethrower.

(12-12-2013 08:29 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(12-11-2013 08:31 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 11:10 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(12-09-2013 10:27 AM)mlb Wrote:  I've said it before, and I still stand by my information. Dayton has been contacted by the Big East and is, in fact, prepping to be invited. I expected it to happen in the first go around, but I certainly expect it in the 2nd go around.

Granted, my information comes from the academic side but they've been told to start working with Big East institutions in academic affairs due to pending conference changes. That seems to be as straight forward as can be.

Obviously anything can change when it comes to college athletics... but that seems to be about as golden as you can be without the paperwork signed, sealed, and delivered.

The Big East is not expanding.

The Big East does not need the Dayton market. They do not need to expand, nor should they.

I agree, but Big East insiders have publicly stated that they intend to do so.

The Big East didn't need the Omaha market, but they took Creighton because of their high attendance and intense fan support, which has translated into high ticket sales for the big east tournament in March. Dayton is the same kind of program and therefore can't be ignored.

As far as market is concerned, Dayton is not a commuter school. I don't know what it's market is, but if it's like other private schools, it's more likely regional than just local. It's up to the commissioner's office and Fox to do the research to determine just what their market is and whether it helps the conference. It's not a valid assumption to say that all they bring is the city of Dayton. They are the largest private university in Ohio.

As far as market consisting of student body, its mostly ohio, Chicago, and north east kids. While we do have a lot of Cincinnati alums Cleveland sends more to UD so you bring that market in as well

I know I'm going to get flogged for supposedly surreptitious promotion of a VCU addition with this, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like the Big East, if it doesn't expand, will wind up winning the TV contract battle at the expense of losing the BCS vs. non-BCS/Football vs. Basketball wars.

The Power 5 are going to continue to throw their weight around: http://www.athleticscholarships.net/2013...sion-i.htm

The one thing that would give elite and ascendant non-football schools a fighting chance (or at the very least the ability to dictate the demise of non-BCS basketball on their own terms) is banding together for some collective bargaining.

Leaving aside VCU all together, a Big East basketball Super Conference with the current 10 + SLU, Dayton, Gonzaga, Wichita State, UMass, Davidson, UR, _____, and two other schools if needed/possible, would immeasurably strengthen the conference's collective (and the schools' respective) hand. It would also create a pole of power to which non-member basketball/non-BCS schools could gravitate and vote with en bloc.

Sadly, this will not happen due to status quo bias, uncertainty, and a bunch of other perfectly understandable reasons, but it's a pity.

Not even sure Dayton is the largest private University in Ohio. Case Western Reserve, when you add up its undergraduate, graduate, law and medical school enrollments, is likely larger. But I don't see anyone saying that Case Western should be added to the Big East.

(12-13-2013 04:00 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Not even sure Dayton is the largest private University in Ohio. Case Western Reserve, when you add up its undergraduate, graduate, law and medical school enrollments, is likely larger. But I don't see anyone saying that Case Western should be added to the Big East.

I don's see any posts suggesting that Dayton should be added to the Big East based solely on the fact that they are the largest private university in Ohio. Do you?

FWIW, the University of Dayton is in fact the largest private university in Ohio with a total enrollment of 11,186 (Wikipedia). Case Western Reserve University has a total enrollment of 10,325 (http://case.edu).

(12-12-2013 12:22 PM)mlb Wrote:  [Dayton is a larger school than Xavier, with a larger fan base too. Yes, it is in a smaller city than Cincinnati, but the pockets are deep in their alumni. There are probably as many Dayton fans as Ohio State fans going to their only competitor in town, Wright State University.

I know I'm biased, but if you take out the recent tournament success by Xavier then I don't see how you can think that Xavier is any better than Dayton. Both have great histories, both draw well (although Dayton has, as long as I have been alive, never been outdrawn by Xavier), Dayton owns its market while Xavier draws much lower ratings in Cincinnati than UC. There is a reason why UC gets the higher billing on both teams' flagship station (700 WLW)... when they are playing at the same time XU gets pushed to a lower level station and UC is broadcast on the 50,000 Watt flamethrower.

I agree, you are biased. Only a truly biased fan could put Xavier and Dayton on level ground. But then, mlb is a uc fan so he thinks that a Xavier team that routinely fills the Cintas is outdrawn by uc, whose team not only doesn't fill its own arena, but routinely fails to draw as many fans to its home games as the Muskies do to theirs.

(12-14-2013 11:12 AM)X-man Wrote:  I agree, you are biased. Only a truly biased fan could put Xavier and Dayton on level ground. But then, mlb is a uc fan so he thinks that a Xavier team that routinely fills the Cintas is outdrawn by uc, whose team not only doesn't fill its own arena, but routinely fails to draw as many fans to its home games as the Muskies do to theirs.

Uhh... reread my post. I said ratings. Xavier ratings are obviously not great in town compared to UC being that UC is the priority between the 2 schools on WLW.

In the past 15 years there is no doubt that Xavier has been, by far, the best program between UC, XU, and UD. Before the past 15 years I'd argue that UC, then UD, then XU in terms of overall success.

At the end of the day I'm positive that Dayton has the best fan base of any basketball team in Ohio. It doesn't matter their record or who they are playing, they draw 12K+ night after night after night. I also think they have the best arena. They just need to find a coach who wants to stay and build... not easy, I know. But Gonzaga, Creighton, and others have found coaches like that and eventually Dayton will find its coach.