the confedaracy never based their philosophy on slavery, the United States did that. Let me make one point clear that will put this into sharper focus. When Lincoln issued the Emancipation proclamation (which I am sure you have not read) he said specifically, "This proclamation goes into effect on jan. 1, 1863. If the southern states lay down their arms BEFORE THEN, it will be null and void."

Problem is that he was prepared, as was 90% of the union population to go back to the status quo. The war was NEVER about slavery and the problem is not southern racism, but rather your superficial understanding of your own history.

You are the one who does not understand history. Citing the Emancipation Proclamation only proves my point. During the election campaign of 1860, Abraham Lincoln plainly and clearly said that he would not abolish slavery in the Southern states where it already existed. But that was not good enough for them. They refused to believe him.

So they decided to secede. They loved their state's right to have slavery so much, and refused to believe their new President so much, that they were willing to destroy our country to keep slavery. In a nutshell, that is the truth. You can say state's rights all you want. In the end, the only right any of those states cared for was having slaves.

Lolly Popp Wrote:The modern Japanese flag is not the same flag they used in World War Two. The militaristic Japanese flag had a red sun in the center of a white sky with red rays extending all around. The modern Japanese flag simply has a red sun in the center of a white sky denoting peace. Interesting attempt at trickery though.


All of you Southerners on here who defend the Confederacy don't get it. As a matter of fact, I know and often debate a Neo-Nazi who also defends the Confederacy. You would make great bedfellows. When people say there are "cultural differences" between your schools and ours, this is almost a perfect example.

I don't want my school sharing a conference with schools whose majority of fans believe in the racism that the Confederacy stood for. You want to gloss over the mistakes of the past instead of analyzing them, learning from them, and growing beyond them. As many have posted before, we don't share values.

I think you need to be fair in your argument. The Northern states did not feel blacks should have equal rights either. They may not support slavery but they were not "angels".

Lolly Popp Wrote:There is NOTHING "small" about slavery! How dare you try to gloss over an EVIL institution such as the act of owning and oppressing other human beings! It was not a "small" thing! It was a BIG thing! You can say state's rights all you want, but NO state has a right to own or oppress other human beings under any circumstances, whatsoever! What we are seeing today is the aftereffect of BILE lies that have seeped into the small minds of America and molded them to deny history! The arguments in support of the Confederacy being made on here today are without any doubt morally BANKRUPT and completely contrasting anathemas to any concept of family values anywhere in any civilized society!

You really know how to twist something.

Lolly Popp Wrote:As for Northern states owning slaves, they abolished the evil institution years before the Civil War. The South was afraid Lincoln would force them into abolition, so they tried to secede. Big mistake.

The Civil War was a war about slavery because the Confederacy felt that they had a right to slavery and the government could not take that right away. That is what state's rights boils down to.

Making blanket aspersions does not cut it on here. The North evolved faster from the mistakes of the Founding Fathers. The South tried to secede and started a war because they refused to evolve.

No amount of spin can explain away the evil that was represented by Slavery or the Confederacy. You have shown your true character here today, TopCoog, and you deserve a lifetime ban without parole!

I think the argument is a little deeper than you are letting on (although I like your arguments). First of all, let me say that slavery is wrong and immoral. We CAN ALL AGREE on this.

For a person in the south during those times, slaves = "property" like any other property. As wrong as it is, this is a fair argument during that time. Who was going to pay those people for the "property" they bought during a time it was legal?

The South felt that the United States government was not meeting the populations' needs and the central government was forcing them to abide by laws they did not agree upon.

Using our Declaration of Independence as justification for a revolution from England, the southern states similarly stated that they had a right to revolution because the government was not meeting the needs of its population. (I can buy that argument from the south's point of view)

The Northern States (the United State) correctly pointed out that there are no provisions to leave the union and they cannot secede.

I enjoy reading about this topic and feel I truly understand many of the issues surrounding the war. My favorite city is Richmond (VA) and I lived there many years. I have been to the Confederate White House and walked many battlefields. I really respect many of Zebulan Vance's (NC Gov) arguments and liked how he fought with Jefferson Davis the entire war. South Carolina, in true hot-head fashion, was the first to leave. Robert E. Lee is so interesting to read about. Lincoln is equally interesting.

There is a lot of passion for this subject. Some of it unfortunately is "racism". It is too bad Lincoln was shot. We may have healed much more quickly with his leadership.

Sec217 Wrote:Seems like a odd sports discussion but I saw a presentation one time that was very educational that may add some insight.

The "Confederate Flag" that most people see today was in fact NEVER the flag of the Confederacy. I believe it was the Tennessee battle flag??

95% of the people who fought for the South never owned slaves and in fact most served in some capacity to large land owners.

There were several black regimens that fought for the South. They were all volunteers.

The Civil War was not a battle for or against slavery but representation and lack of power in the Federal government. The Federal governments decision to abolish slavery was not about doing the morally correct thing but reducing the authority and financial power coming from the South. The South needed the slaves, the North did not. If abolishing slavery was done for the correct reasons, blacks would have been given many more rights and freedoms in the North.

The "Confederate Flags" use by the KKK has led to the belief that it represents hatred and racism and that anyone who flies it believes the same thing. That is not true and simply is used as a excuse to divide people.

The use of the flag by some Southern states and individual people is simply to promote the ideals by which the flag was first created. Pride in Southern Heritage and the belief of strong representation in the Federal government.

People have said the Civil War was fought over slavery so many times that people now believe it. That was not the cause of the Civil War. People need to take some time and study history or find a seminar on topics surrounding the Civil War. There is a lot to learn beyond what you hear from someone trying to use the Civil War and a Confererate flag as a excuse.

It wasn't the TN battle flag. It was first used by Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. See link....

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate3.html

chess Wrote:There is a lot of passion for this subject. Some of it unfortunately is "racism".

It is sad that hate mongers have decided to use the Confederate battle as a symbol of their reprehensible views and ideals.

It is just as sad that some ignorant people can't seperate history from hate. It's sad that some people view anything connected to the South or to the Confederacy as evil.

Personally, I don't think the Confederate battle flag should be displayed in public building. However, it has nothing to do with the Confederacy. It is because idiots like the KKK and the Aryan nation have caused the battle flag to be more associated with hate than with history.

Quote:the confedaracy never based their philosophy on slavery, the United States did that. Let me make one point clear that will put this into sharper focus. When Lincoln issued the Emancipation proclamation (which I am sure you have not read) he said specifically, "This proclamation goes into effect on jan. 1, 1863. If the southern states lay down their arms BEFORE THEN, it will be null and void."

Problem is that he was prepared, as was 90% of the union population to go back to the status quo. The war was NEVER about slavery and the problem is not southern racism, but rather your superficial understanding of your own history.

-- exactly right.....if the war was about slavery how do you explain the fact that they were slave states that stayed in the union? If the war was about slavery, then why did Lincoln wait till late 1862 to issue the emancipation proclmation and then only free the slaves in the CSA. Lincoln did not free the slaves that he actually had the power to free untill the war was over


Jackson

I'm a southerner, and I hate racism and slavery. I'm also proud to be a southerner. I think the solution to this whole flag issue is to change the flag from the stars and bars (a racist symbol thanks to the klan, like it or not) to the actual historical confederate flag. Use the flag that was the national symbol of the CSA, not the battle flag. Its much less offensive. I know its hard for yankees to understand southern pride, but its not about hatred and its hard to explain to someone who is from the north.

As far as the civil war, the main causes of it were: economic issues, states rights, going division between north and south, and slavery. Lincoln never freed the slaves, congress did it in 1865 with the 15th amendment to the constitution. Lincoln even said in one letter to his wife that he would have much rather let the south have slaves forever if the union was kept together. That's all he cared about. The Union was just as guilty at the time. In northern factories men, women, and children were wage slaves who worked in much worse conditions than your average southern slave. Northern wage slaves where treated like things to be used up and thrown away while southern slaves where treated like property that should be taken care of. I not saying slavery was a good life, I'm just saying that northern workers had it just as rough.

Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote:the confedaracy never based their philosophy on slavery, the United States did that. Let me make one point clear that will put this into sharper focus. When Lincoln issued the Emancipation proclamation (which I am sure you have not read) he said specifically, "This proclamation goes into effect on jan. 1, 1863. If the southern states lay down their arms BEFORE THEN, it will be null and void."

Problem is that he was prepared, as was 90% of the union population to go back to the status quo. The war was NEVER about slavery and the problem is not southern racism, but rather your superficial understanding of your own history.

-- exactly right.....if the war was about slavery how do you explain the fact that they were slave states that stayed in the union? If the war was about slavery, then why did Lincoln wait till late 1862 to issue the emancipation proclmation and then only free the slaves in the CSA. Lincoln did not free the slaves that he actually had the power to free untill the war was over

Jackson, I am really surprised. You have seemed to me previously to be one of the most rational posters on this website. That you would choose this topic to fall into lock step with TopCoog, who in addition to all his other unredeemable qualities has now proven himself to be an awful hatemonger and a blatant bigot, is truly shocking. But let me repeat myself yet again.

The war wasn't about slavery - but it was all about slavery - at the same time. Lincoln said during the campaign that he wouldn't abolish slavery. The South refused to believe him. They were so afraid he would take their slaves away, even though he said he wouldn't, that they tried to destroy our nation. No state has a right to slavery. But that was all they cared about.

There is NOTHING "small" about slavery! How dare you try to gloss over an EVIL institution such as the act of owning and oppressing other human beings! It was not a "small" thing! It was a BIG thing! You can say state's rights all you want, but NO state has a right to own or oppress other human beings under any circumstances, whatsoever! What we are seeing today is the aftereffect of BILE lies that have seeped into the small minds of America and molded them to deny history! The arguments in support of the Confederacy being made on here today are without any doubt morally BANKRUPT and completely contrasting anathemas to any concept of family values anywhere in any civilized society!

You wish a terminal disease on someone ... one of the worst diseases known to humanity ... because you ''think'' someone insulted your precious Southern heritage? Tell us again who the real scum is!

First of all, there are no insults there, only analysis and truth. The Confederacy incorporated the evil institution of slavery as one of their bedrock principles. No state has a right to own human beings.

As for Northern states owning slaves, they abolished the evil institution years before the Civil War. The South was afraid Lincoln would force them into abolition, so they tried to secede. Big mistake.

The Civil War was a war about slavery because the Confederacy felt that they had a right to slavery and the government could not take that right away. That is what state's rights boils down to.

Making blanket aspersions does not cut it on here. The North evolved faster from the mistakes of the Founding Fathers. The South tried to secede and started a war because they refused to evolve.

No amount of spin can explain away the evil that was represented by Slavery or the Confederacy. You have shown your true character here today, TopCoog, and you deserve a lifetime ban without parole!

You are the one who does not understand history. Citing the Emancipation Proclamation only proves my point. During the election campaign of 1860, Abraham Lincoln plainly and clearly said that he would not abolish slavery in the Southern states where it already existed. But that was not good enough for them. They refused to believe him.

So they decided to secede. They loved their state's right to have slavery so much, and refused to believe their new President so much, that they were willing to destroy our country to keep slavery. In a nutshell, that is the truth. You can say state's rights all you want. In the end, the only right any of those states cared for was having slaves.

Chess, I want to thank you for your comments, even though we have disagreed on expansion issues before. You have been quite fair in this discussion. I agree that there were no "angels" on the issue of slavery. We do know from history, however, that the North did develop enough of a conscience to abolish slavery decades earlier than the South ever would have done so.

I have tried to keep things simple and boiled down to the lowest common denominator because that is the only thing many people understand these days. Look at recent elections for proof of that. So to those who say ''the Civil War wasn't about slavery but about state's rights'' I say ''state's rights to do what'' in response. The answer is a right that no one should ever have.

I agree that we have had a good discussion on this subject (and on an internet sports board, too.)

This is really a rough subject to discuss even with your friends and in school.

Americans really have not digested all of the pains from the Civil War yet.

I have a good friend who after graduating from ECU worked in England for a few years. One of my favorite discussions we had was how he would make these "jokes" about being a southerner and black and nobody would "get the jokes". He was amazed at how much baggage he carried from growing up in the south. Many times you have to leave a place and travel to gain perspective.

I had a similar feeling when I moved to Chicago. I am not German but have a German last name. I worked in a neighborhood with first generation Polish people. The older people were young during World War II. For some reason I felt guilty. One day, one of my older clients felt the weird pause and sensed something wrong in my movements. I remember what he said... "You had nothing to do with World War II and don't feel guilty." How is that for compassion and insight?

I don't think about it today and realize that I shouldn't have felt this need to apologize for the past I could not control. Treat all people with respect and we can all be happy.

TopCoog Wrote:

CardHouse Wrote:

Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote: don't see this as a liberal or conservative thing, just common sense. Unfortunately, racism is still a significant problem, especially in the South. We're currently seeing it here in Louisville with the "cruising" issue around the Derby, though some would try to deny the racial basis of it. Symbols of segregation and slavery, however complex their other connotations, are not acceptable as official emblems.

-- I think it certainly becomes a Liberal/conservative thing when you have the NAACP trying to get involved with the state affairs of SC....and liberal politicans from accross the country denouncing the flag and hinting that the federal government should do something about it.....certainly the NAACP and the federal government do not have the right to tell the people of SC what flag they can fly over their own state house.....especially when that flag is meant to honor the thousands if men who died protecting that state from an invading force bent on destruction


Jackson

Southerners have the right to display the Confederate flag in a private manner anyway they want (like with bumper stickers, T-shirts, privately funded memorials?.etc?)

But when the symbol appears on a government building or on government property, then that crosses the line.

Kiss my A$$ Card House. Many brave men died upholding the principles of the Confedracy and for some uneductaed little twit like you to insult their memory and bravery is disgusting.

FU TopPoop, you are such an idiot, but everyone already knows that.

I'm well educated, have been a history buff for over 30 years, and guarantee you I know a lot more about the Civil War then you do.

I wasn't insulting anyone. Honor your heritage, but that flag doesn't belong on any government property in the United States anymore then any other foreign government flag does.

Go back to your CUSA board with your other rebel buddies.

And one more thing:

Quote:Jackson, I am really surprised. You have seemed to me previously to be one of the most rational posters on this website. That you would choose this topic to fall into lock step with TopCoog, who in addition to all his other unredeemable qualities has now proven himself to be an awful hatemonger and a blatant bigot, is truly shocking. But let me repeat myself yet again.

The war wasn't about slavery - but it was all about slavery - at the same time. Lincoln said during the campaign that he wouldn't abolish slavery. The South refused to believe him. They were so afraid he would take their slaves away, even though he said he wouldn't, that they tried to destroy our nation. No state has a right to slavery. But that was all they cared about.

-- Don't be too suprised....I had a history class that had a geneology componet in college and found that I had a civil war ancestor who was actually wounded in the service of the Confederacy. I was fascinated. I went on to take a Civil War/Reconstruction classes at WVU and became a civil war buff on the side. The deeper that I got into it the more alligned I became with the political beliefs of the CSA (outside of slavery). I am a firm believer in the old idea of states rights (after all we are the United States not the United Provinces) and think a lot of our politlcal problems could more easily be solved by moving toward more local/state gov't control

-- two things make my blood boil on this issue. A)KKK and Aryan Nation using the CSA battle flag is their symbol B) the effort by the political left to eliminate any monuments or tokens of respect to our anscestors and to the ideas for which they fought.

Quote:but that flag doesn't belong on any government property in the United States anymore then any other foreign government flag does.

-- I will grant you the flag does not belong on US property....but the "flag" in question currently resides on the property of the state of South Carolina

-- what I find usefull for everyone is that if you really want to honor your CSA heritage....use the old stars and bars


--this flag flies outside of my hunting cabin....and no one knows what it means....it also doesn't bring the racial componet into the equation because hate groups don't use it


Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:two things make my blood boil on this issue. A)KKK and Aryan Nation using the CSA battle flag is their symbol B) the effort by the political left to eliminate any monuments or tokens of respect to our anscestors and to the ideas for which they fought.

In Memphis we have Confedate Park, Jefferson Davis Park and Forrest Park. Forrest is buried in Forrest Park. There has been talk in the past about renaming these parks. I think it's sad because some of the arguments against them are simply because people are uninformed. Unforturnately, however, some people are honestly offended. There is no easy solution.

Tallgrass Wrote:Well, you are correct to stay it is all a rumor. But we do know ACC/CUSA had the Palmetto Bowl ready to go...and we know UCF will have a gorgeous stadium....and we know UCF's AD is from the Orange Bowl....it it like having all the ingredients on the kitchen counter...just ready for someone to stir the pot.

acording to USF people it wont be gorgeous... its an erector set built out of toothpicks and popicle sticks... at least it will be clean and new..

goodknightfl Wrote:

Tallgrass Wrote:Well, you are correct to stay it is all a rumor. But we do know ACC/CUSA had the Palmetto Bowl ready to go...and we know UCF will have a gorgeous stadium....and we know UCF's AD is from the Orange Bowl....it it like having all the ingredients on the kitchen counter...just ready for someone to stir the pot.

acording to USF people it wont be gorgeous... its an erector set built out of toothpicks and popicle sticks... at least it will be clean and new..

Dude, are you so hard up for attention that you needed to respond to a 3 month old post? Pretty sad...

USFFan

usffan Wrote:

goodknightfl Wrote:

Tallgrass Wrote:Well, you are correct to stay it is all a rumor. But we do know ACC/CUSA had the Palmetto Bowl ready to go...and we know UCF will have a gorgeous stadium....and we know UCF's AD is from the Orange Bowl....it it like having all the ingredients on the kitchen counter...just ready for someone to stir the pot.

acording to USF people it wont be gorgeous... its an erector set built out of toothpicks and popicle sticks... at least it will be clean and new..

Dude, are you so hard up for attention that you needed to respond to a 3 month old post? Pretty sad...

USFFan

If U know when this was posted U are way ahead of me... all the post now say... 06/06/06.

goodknightfl Wrote:

usffan Wrote:

goodknightfl Wrote:

Tallgrass Wrote:Well, you are correct to stay it is all a rumor. But we do know ACC/CUSA had the Palmetto Bowl ready to go...and we know UCF will have a gorgeous stadium....and we know UCF's AD is from the Orange Bowl....it it like having all the ingredients on the kitchen counter...just ready for someone to stir the pot.

acording to USF people it wont be gorgeous... its an erector set built out of toothpicks and popicle sticks... at least it will be clean and new..

Dude, are you so hard up for attention that you needed to respond to a 3 month old post? Pretty sad...

USFFan

If U know when this was posted U are way ahead of me... all the post now say... 06/06/06.

Tallgrass posted his comment on May 7, 2006. More than 60 responses later, the thread had pretty much died, but you dug deep to find that so you could throw a little smack USF's way on July 27, nearly 3 months later. Pretty pathetic, actually.

The dates are all there in the first line of every post. It doesn't speak well of your education if you can't read them.

USFFan

usffan Wrote:

goodknightfl Wrote:

usffan Wrote:

goodknightfl Wrote:

Tallgrass Wrote:Well, you are correct to stay it is all a rumor. But we do know ACC/CUSA had the Palmetto Bowl ready to go...and we know UCF will have a gorgeous stadium....and we know UCF's AD is from the Orange Bowl....it it like having all the ingredients on the kitchen counter...just ready for someone to stir the pot.

acording to USF people it wont be gorgeous... its an erector set built out of toothpicks and popicle sticks... at least it will be clean and new..

Dude, are you so hard up for attention that you needed to respond to a 3 month old post? Pretty sad...

USFFan

If U know when this was posted U are way ahead of me... all the post now say... 06/06/06.

Tallgrass posted his comment on May 7, 2006. More than 60 responses later, the thread had pretty much died, but you dug deep to find that so you could throw a little smack USF's way on July 27, nearly 3 months later. Pretty pathetic, actually.

The dates are all there in the first line of every post. It doesn't speak well of your education if you can't read them.

USFFan

on my puter it only says 06/06/06 for all post... its been that way for a month or more. only on ncaabbs sites all others work fine. ( update after playing with profile for 30 minutes I have fixed date probs... now see them correctly...)

Hard to second guess history. The southern farmers were given land for fighting in the revolutionary war. The had no money to pay people to farm the land. Slavery was the labor available at the time. You still had to buy, feed and house the slaves. Yes, slavery was a moral wrong, but at the time it was legal. Our ancestors didn't have Mexicans willing to work for pennies back then. The were working for pesos. Dollar wasn't worth much back then. We were a emerging market back then. Europe had the bling bling back then. Now we own the world and ancestors of slaves get 90 million dollar contracts on the backs of Chinese sweat shops making shoes. Funny how NCAA doesn't worry about NCAA teams wearing a shoe company logo on the uniform head coach getting a shoe deal for the basketball team the the backs of cheap communist labor. Communism is slavery except the state is the plantation owner and not a revolutionary war vet.