(07-21-2013 10:15 AM)First Mate Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 09:55 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 05:57 AM)Vewb1 Wrote:  I'm not for it at all. I like VCU, think it's a great basketball program, but these schools in the American, all need to focus on improving the football situation respectively. One reason the split with the Big East was good for Cincinnati is that we got rid of the voting schools that did not have football. Those schools were holding the football part of the league back and many times at bay. The AAC should only concentrate on football schools. As I stated before, only my opinion and I do like VCU.

With all due respect, IMO it's this kind of thinking that will hold the league back. There is no way that the AAC can compete with the P5. The deck is stacked against it. The game is rigged precisely to prevent that from ever being successful. The best anyone can hope for is that one or two teams can do what Utah, Boise, and TCU did in the past decade to emerge as a power program from a lower league. But that will do nothing to gain respect for the league. It will probably result in that school getting poached in further expansion/realignment.

Basketball presents opportunities galore. That tournament is wide open and is not rigged against any league. It's all based on merit and performance. Just as the Big East did 30 years ago, an upwardly mobile conference can make a name for itself, get some respect, and come to be regarded as a power conference. That branding helps football as well as basketball as we saw in the case of the BE.

The hybrid had little to do with the demise of BE Football. The football schools. Could have split off anytime they wanted to. There's nothing the basketball schools could have done to prevent that. They had multiple opportunities to do so, but they never did. That should tell you all you need to know about where the problems originated and why they persisted despite attempts to deflect blame onto the basketball schools.

This is exactly right. You've got to load up with teams that can make noise in the tournament. The problem with the old bigeast is there were "too many" basketball only schools and they held the football side back. That's gone now. The new American has an opportunity by adding a couple of teams like VCU to be a real power player in basketball. The potential to get 5-6-7 teams in the NCAA tourney every year shouldn't be understated.

The increased exposure helps the entire league, including football- the more the media talks about The American the better. Add VCU.

Good points.

Agree that there were too many basketball only schools. They should have split years ago.

(07-21-2013 10:07 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  I don't really get the hybrid knock.

The Big East was a hybrid. It was almost the clear-cut best basketball conference in the nation for quite some time.

Seems like hybrids worked. It was the backroom politics that didn't.

The problem with Big East hybrid is that you had three factions, the Catholic 7, football schools, and Notre Dame. Membership changes from expanding for football to the current realignment crisis didn't help.

Yes, it was the best basketball conference; however, most of the name brand programs were football schools. WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn, and Cincinnati gave the football side of the league six tradition rich programs that have done well in recent years. The Catholic 7 offered up Marquette, Georgetown, and Villanova. St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul pretty much stunk during this period of the mega 16 team league. Once again Notre Dame was good but they were their own island.

(07-21-2013 10:07 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  I don't really get the hybrid knock.

The Big East was a hybrid. It was almost the clear-cut best basketball conference in the nation for quite some time.

Seems like hybrids worked. It was the backroom politics that didn't.

Exactly. The only reason the backroom politics were so bad was because the Big East started off as a BB conference with the Catholics and a few traditional northern schools (Pitt, UConn, Cuse). Then when football started driving the bus, the BB schools fought back. If everyone is eyes-wide-open going in, it's fine.

And I don't even know that it was purely football driving the bus, but that the basketball schools reached their limit on who they wanted to add to the conference in terms of geography and institutional type. VCU, George Mason, Wichita St., etc. all fit in just fine with the AAC in both those areas. If someone was talking about adding St Joes or Belmont or something, I might be concerned a bit, but even then, they'd know what they were getting into.

(07-22-2013 08:38 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 10:07 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  I don't really get the hybrid knock.

The Big East was a hybrid. It was almost the clear-cut best basketball conference in the nation for quite some time.

Seems like hybrids worked. It was the backroom politics that didn't.

The problem with Big East hybrid is that you had three factions, the Catholic 7, football schools, and Notre Dame. Membership changes from expanding for football to the current realignment crisis didn't help.

Yes, it was the best basketball conference; however, most of the name brand programs were football schools. WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn, and Cincinnati gave the football side of the league six tradition rich programs that have done well in recent years. The Catholic 7 offered up Marquette, Georgetown, and Villanova. St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul pretty much stunk during this period of the mega 16 team league. Once again Notre Dame was good but they were their own island.

The problems in the old Big East had nothing to do with 3 factions.

1. As a basketball conference it was already big and unwieldy.
2. Issues of size placed limits on future growth, which was desired by the football schools.
3. The simple solution was for the 2 factions to split.
4. The football schools repeatedly refused to split even when they were given a free pass to do so without financial penalty.

I have no idea how you justify the claim that most of the brand name basketball programs were football schools. You're overrating West Virgina, Cincinnati, and Pitt as brand name basketball programs. At the same time you're dismissing a tradition rich program like St. John's which went to an Elite 8 and won a Big East championship during the time of this 16 team mega conference and you're dismissing Providence which also went to an Elite 8 and had a top 20 finish during the 16 team mega conference history. You're treating the programs for. The different sides of the conference with completely different standards.

(07-22-2013 10:44 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 08:38 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 10:07 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  I don't really get the hybrid knock.

The Big East was a hybrid. It was almost the clear-cut best basketball conference in the nation for quite some time.

Seems like hybrids worked. It was the backroom politics that didn't.

The problem with Big East hybrid is that you had three factions, the Catholic 7, football schools, and Notre Dame. Membership changes from expanding for football to the current realignment crisis didn't help.

Yes, it was the best basketball conference; however, most of the name brand programs were football schools. WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn, and Cincinnati gave the football side of the league six tradition rich programs that have done well in recent years. The Catholic 7 offered up Marquette, Georgetown, and Villanova. St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul pretty much stunk during this period of the mega 16 team league. Once again Notre Dame was good but they were their own island.

The problems in the old Big East had nothing to do with 3 factions.

1. As a basketball conference it was already big and unwieldy.
2. Issues of size placed limits on future growth, which was desired by the football schools.
3. The simple solution was for the 2 factions to split.
4. The football schools repeatedly refused to split even when they were given a free pass to do so without financial penalty.

I have no idea how you justify the claim that most of the brand name basketball programs were football schools. You're overrating West Virgina, Cincinnati, and Pitt as brand name basketball programs. At the same time you're dismissing a tradition rich program like St. John's which went to an Elite 8 and won a Big East championship during the time of this 16 team mega conference and you're dismissing Providence which also went to an Elite 8 and had a top 20 finish during the 16 team mega conference history. You're treating the programs for. The different sides of the conference with completely different standards.

I do agree that the league was too big but you need to stop blaming the football schools for everything.

St. John's made made the Elite 8 in 1999. They have not won a single NCAA tournament game since the Big East added Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Marquette, and DePaul. Providence's Elite 8 was back in 1997. If we want to go back to the 1990's the Bearcats made the Final Four in 1992 and the Elite Eight in 1993 and 1996 plus a sweet sixteen at the start of the next decade.

I know you defend the basketball schools but look at what WVU, Cincinnati, Pitt, UConn, Syracuse, and Louisville did during that period. USF of all programs still won more tournament games than Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, and DePaul combined during this period. Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova are the only programs out of the Catholic 7 that did anything. Notre Dame was a good program that struggled in March.

(07-22-2013 11:01 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 10:44 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 08:38 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 10:07 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  I don't really get the hybrid knock.

The Big East was a hybrid. It was almost the clear-cut best basketball conference in the nation for quite some time.

Seems like hybrids worked. It was the backroom politics that didn't.

The problem with Big East hybrid is that you had three factions, the Catholic 7, football schools, and Notre Dame. Membership changes from expanding for football to the current realignment crisis didn't help.

Yes, it was the best basketball conference; however, most of the name brand programs were football schools. WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn, and Cincinnati gave the football side of the league six tradition rich programs that have done well in recent years. The Catholic 7 offered up Marquette, Georgetown, and Villanova. St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul pretty much stunk during this period of the mega 16 team league. Once again Notre Dame was good but they were their own island.

The problems in the old Big East had nothing to do with 3 factions.

1. As a basketball conference it was already big and unwieldy.
2. Issues of size placed limits on future growth, which was desired by the football schools.
3. The simple solution was for the 2 factions to split.
4. The football schools repeatedly refused to split even when they were given a free pass to do so without financial penalty.

I have no idea how you justify the claim that most of the brand name basketball programs were football schools. You're overrating West Virgina, Cincinnati, and Pitt as brand name basketball programs. At the same time you're dismissing a tradition rich program like St. John's which went to an Elite 8 and won a Big East championship during the time of this 16 team mega conference and you're dismissing Providence which also went to an Elite 8 and had a top 20 finish during the 16 team mega conference history. You're treating the programs for. The different sides of the conference with completely different standards.

I do agree that the league was too big but you need to stop blaming the football schools for everything.

St. John's made made the Elite 8 in 1999. They have not won a single NCAA tournament game since the Big East added Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Marquette, and DePaul. Providence's Elite 8 was back in 1997. If we want to go back to the 1990's the Bearcats made the Final Four in 1992 and the Elite Eight in 1993 and 1996 plus a sweet sixteen at the start of the next decade.

I know you defend the basketball schools but look at what WVU, Cincinnati, Pitt, UConn, Syracuse, and Louisville did during that period. USF of all programs still won more tournament games than Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, and DePaul combined during this period. Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova are the only programs out of the Catholic 7 that did anything. Notre Dame was a good program that struggled in March.

Okay. I didn't understand the parameters. When you referred to the mega conference, I was thinking 1995 when Rutgers, West Virginia, and Notre Dame were added. If you want to restrict the conversation to 2005 and beyond you're dealing with a pretty small slice of history.

Even restricting it to those 9 years, you refer to Cincinnati as "tradition rich" even though they pretty much stunk during this period and ignore tradition rich programs on the other side.

(07-22-2013 11:59 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 11:01 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 10:44 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 08:38 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-21-2013 10:07 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  I don't really get the hybrid knock.

The Big East was a hybrid. It was almost the clear-cut best basketball conference in the nation for quite some time.

Seems like hybrids worked. It was the backroom politics that didn't.

The problem with Big East hybrid is that you had three factions, the Catholic 7, football schools, and Notre Dame. Membership changes from expanding for football to the current realignment crisis didn't help.

Yes, it was the best basketball conference; however, most of the name brand programs were football schools. WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn, and Cincinnati gave the football side of the league six tradition rich programs that have done well in recent years. The Catholic 7 offered up Marquette, Georgetown, and Villanova. St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul pretty much stunk during this period of the mega 16 team league. Once again Notre Dame was good but they were their own island.

The problems in the old Big East had nothing to do with 3 factions.

1. As a basketball conference it was already big and unwieldy.
2. Issues of size placed limits on future growth, which was desired by the football schools.
3. The simple solution was for the 2 factions to split.
4. The football schools repeatedly refused to split even when they were given a free pass to do so without financial penalty.

I have no idea how you justify the claim that most of the brand name basketball programs were football schools. You're overrating West Virgina, Cincinnati, and Pitt as brand name basketball programs. At the same time you're dismissing a tradition rich program like St. John's which went to an Elite 8 and won a Big East championship during the time of this 16 team mega conference and you're dismissing Providence which also went to an Elite 8 and had a top 20 finish during the 16 team mega conference history. You're treating the programs for. The different sides of the conference with completely different standards.

I do agree that the league was too big but you need to stop blaming the football schools for everything.

St. John's made made the Elite 8 in 1999. They have not won a single NCAA tournament game since the Big East added Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Marquette, and DePaul. Providence's Elite 8 was back in 1997. If we want to go back to the 1990's the Bearcats made the Final Four in 1992 and the Elite Eight in 1993 and 1996 plus a sweet sixteen at the start of the next decade.

I know you defend the basketball schools but look at what WVU, Cincinnati, Pitt, UConn, Syracuse, and Louisville did during that period. USF of all programs still won more tournament games than Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, and DePaul combined during this period. Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova are the only programs out of the Catholic 7 that did anything. Notre Dame was a good program that struggled in March.

Okay. I didn't understand the parameters. When you referred to the mega conference, I was thinking 1995 when Rutgers, West Virginia, and Notre Dame were added. If you want to restrict the conversation to 2005 and beyond you're dealing with a pretty small slice of history.

Even restricting it to those 9 years, you refer to Cincinnati as "tradition rich" even though they pretty much stunk during this period and ignore tradition rich programs on the other side.

Cincinnati wasn't great because they were going through a rebuild which did include two NIT bids; however, before that they had 14 NCAA tournaments in a row. Even as bad as they were their 3 NCAA tournaments with one Sweet 16 was still better than anything Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, DePaul could put together. I actually think those program will benefit the most from the new Big East because you don't have the football schools like Syracuse, UConn, and Louisville occupying the top spots every year. Same way i feel that Cincinnati will do very in the American because there are less power programs locked into the top spots.

(07-22-2013 12:11 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 11:59 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 11:01 AM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  

(07-22-2013 10:44 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  [quote='bearcatlawjd' pid='9514867' dateline='1374500284']

The problem with Big East hybrid is that you had three factions, the Catholic 7, football schools, and Notre Dame. Membership changes from expanding for football to the current realignment crisis didn't help.

Yes, it was the best basketball conference; however, most of the name brand programs were football schools. WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, UConn, and Cincinnati gave the football side of the league six tradition rich programs that have done well in recent years. The Catholic 7 offered up Marquette, Georgetown, and Villanova. St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul pretty much stunk during this period of the mega 16 team league. Once again Notre Dame was good but they were their own island.

The problems in the old Big East had nothing to do with 3 factions.

1. As a basketball conference it was already big and unwieldy.
2. Issues of size placed limits on future growth, which was desired by the football schools.
3. The simple solution was for the 2 factions to split.
4. The football schools repeatedly refused to split even when they were given a free pass to do so without financial penalty.

I have no idea how you justify the claim that most of the brand name basketball programs were football schools. You're overrating West Virgina, Cincinnati, and Pitt as brand name basketball programs. At the same time you're dismissing a tradition rich program like St. John's which went to an Elite 8 and won a Big East championship during the time of this 16 team mega conference and you're dismissing Providence which also went to an Elite 8 and had a top 20 finish during the 16 team mega conference history. You're treating the programs for. The different sides of the conference with completely different standards.

I do agree that the league was too big but you need to stop blaming the football schools for everything.

St. John's made made the Elite 8 in 1999. They have not won a single NCAA tournament game since the Big East added Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, Marquette, and DePaul. Providence's Elite 8 was back in 1997. If we want to go back to the 1990's the Bearcats made the Final Four in 1992 and the Elite Eight in 1993 and 1996 plus a sweet sixteen at the start of the next decade.

I know you defend the basketball schools but look at what WVU, Cincinnati, Pitt, UConn, Syracuse, and Louisville did during that period. USF of all programs still won more tournament games than Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, and DePaul combined during this period. Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova are the only programs out of the Catholic 7 that did anything. Notre Dame was a good program that struggled in March.

Okay. I didn't understand the parameters. When you referred to the mega conference, I was thinking 1995 when Rutgers, West Virginia, and Notre Dame were added. If you want to restrict the conversation to 2005 and beyond you're dealing with a pretty small slice of history.

Even restricting it to those 9 years, you refer to Cincinnati as "tradition rich" even though they pretty much stunk during this period and ignore tradition rich programs on the other side.

Cincinnati wasn't great because they were going through a rebuild which did include two NIT bids; however, before that they had 14 NCAA tournaments in a row. Even as bad as they were their 3 NCAA tournaments with one Sweet 16 was still better than anything Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, DePaul could put together. I actually think those program will benefit the most from the new Big East because you don't have the football schools like Syracuse, UConn, and Louisville occupying the top spots every year. Same way i feel that Cincinnati will do very in the American because there are les
Your claim that football schools like Louisville, UConn, and Syracuse occupied the top spots every year reflects a football bias because it is simply not true. Here's a list of the top 3 finishers in the Big East in the past 8-year mega conference period, with more than 3 schools listed in the event of a tie:

2006 - Villanova, UConn, West Virginia
2007 - Georgetown, Pitt, Louisville
2008 - Georgetown, Notre Dame, Louisville
2009 - Louisville, UConn, Pitt
2010 - Syracuse, Villanova, Pitt, West Virginia
2011 - Pitt, Notre Dame, St. John's, Syracuse, Louisville
2012 - Syracuse, Marquette, Notre Dame
2013 - Marquette, Georgetown, Louisville

[quote='bearcatlawjd' pid='9515635' dateline='1374513072']
[quote='Melky Cabrera' pid='9515579' dateline='1374512350']
[quote='bearcatlawjd' pid='9515362' dateline='1374508864']
[quote='Melky Cabrera' pid='9515283' dateline='1374507854']
[quote='bearcatlawjd' pid='9514867' dateline='1374500284']


Cincinnati wasn't great because they were going through a rebuild which did include two NIT bids; however, before that they had 14 NCAA tournaments in a row. Even as bad as they were their 3 NCAA tournaments with one Sweet 16 was still better than anything Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, DePaul could put together. I actually think those program will benefit the most from the new Big East because you don't have the football schools like Syracuse, UConn, and Louisville occupying the top spots every year. Same way i feel that Cincinnati will do very in the American because there are les
Your claim that football schools like Louisville, UConn, and Syracuse occupied the top spots every year reflects a football bias because it is simply not true. Here's a list of the top 3 finishers in the Big East in the past 8-year mega conference period, with more than 3 schools listed in the event of a tie:

2006 - Villanova, UConn, West Virginia
2007 - Georgetown, Pitt, Louisville
2008 - Georgetown, Notre Dame, Louisville
2009 - Louisville, UConn, Pitt
2010 - Syracuse, Villanova, Pitt, West Virginia
2011 - Pitt, Notre Dame, St. John's, Syracuse, Louisville
2012 - Syracuse, Marquette, Notre Dame
2013 - Marquette, Georgetown, Louisville

(07-22-2013 05:08 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Completely agree that the 16-team Big East was an impossible situation and that most of the schools in the AAC should improve just by getting out from under.

Agreed.