Rank. Team, Attendance-Capacity (%)

C7:
2. Marquette, 15,138-18850 (80.3%)
4. Georgetown, 11,283-18756 (60.2%)
7. Villanova, 8,923-13414 (66.5%) [average between Pavilion and Well's Fargo Center)
8. St. John's 8,428-11901 (70.8%) [average between Carnesecca and Madison Square Garden)
9. Providence, 7,883-12400 (63.6%)
11. DePaul, 7,740-17500 (44.2%)
13. Seton Hall, 6,941-18751 (37.1%)

Candidates (All of them, even the "not a chance" teams)
1. Creighton, 16,665-18320 (90.9%)
3. Dayton, 12,154-13345 (91.1%)
5. Wichita State, 10,391 (99.9%)
6. Xavier, 10,155-10250 (99.1%)
10. Saint Louis, 7,757-10600 (73.2%)
12. VCU, 7,622-7617 (100.0%)
14. Butler, 6,599-10000 (66.0%)
15. Siena, 6,509-15229 (41.9%)
16. Gonzaga, 6,212-6000 (103.5%)
17. Richmond, 5,660-9071 (62.4%)
18. Detroit, 2,210-8295 (26.4%)



Do these rankings mean anything to you? I think they show the schools with the most dedication to their programs, so they work as a good estimate of revenue potential and fan support. I included the percentage of capacity filled to illustrate how much support some of these programs are getting. Your top 6 candidates are averaging over 90% attendance, and four of those are averaging nearly or over 100%.

The numbers on the C7 aren't incredibly accurate, because a lot of teams use multiple arenas (and not in even amounts, like I estimated). Still, I think we can say that the potential candidates are probably not as fickle as the C7 schools are. It should be noted that these attendance numbers do not show average price per ticket, which would be an interesting comparison.

(02-26-2013 12:25 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Rank. Team, Attendance-Capacity (%)

17. Richmond, 5,660-9071 (62.4%)

Not that it is particularly different number, but Richmond is currently averaging 5,998 not 5,660. The A10 had one of our games as 71 total fans, when it was 9,071 in attendance. When it comes to A10 games, Richmond is actually averaging 7,714 fans. Just did not do well in attendance in the OOC portion of schedule.

To answer your question, yes. it should matter & I think it does matter.

Thanks for a very interesting piece of research - especially the part about percentages, which is very revealing.

(02-26-2013 12:34 PM)bostonspider Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 12:25 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Rank. Team, Attendance-Capacity (%)

17. Richmond, 5,660-9071 (62.4%)

Not that it is particularly different number, but Richmond is currently averaging 5,998 not 5,660. The A10 had one of our games as 71 total fans, when it was 9,071 in attendance. When it comes to A10 games, Richmond is actually averaging 7,714 fans. Just did not do well in attendance in the OOC portion of schedule.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had noticed that aberrant number and wondered if they had played in a blizzrd when no one could get to the arena.

We all know Butler is in and rightfully so, just curious why they get such low attendance given their success in recent years.

Here is SLU's 2012-2013 Average Attendance:

OOC: 6.191
A10: 9,566


It is hard to get people excited to see North Texas State whatever in OOC.

(02-26-2013 01:08 PM)Billikens88 Wrote:  Here is SLU's 2012-2013 Average Attendance:

OOC: 6.191
A10: 9,566


It is hard to get people excited to see North Texas State whatever in OOC.

I haven't been able to find 2012-2013 attendance (those numbers were from 2011-2012). Where did you find it? I'd like to see what the numbers for this year are. I will note, however, the the Mean Green of North Texas probably weren't the worst potential game on the lineup; they have a supposed NBA talent in Tony Mitchell and were supposed to compete for a conference title.

Realistically, I would like to compile a 5-year average, along with highs and lows. That would give a good estimation of a team's usual and peak attendance numbers.

Richmond is planning to downsize their seating (albeit with providing corporate suits, or something along those lines). VCU has talked about expanding seating capabilities, hopefully it comes to fruition- especially if invited to the C7.

(02-26-2013 01:06 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  We all know Butler is in and rightfully so, just curious why they get such low attendance given their success in recent years.

They're a small school. An early season home schedule drove down the attendance totals:

Elon
Hanover
Ball State
IUPUI
Evansville
Penn
New Orleans

They averaged close to full capacity for their conference games.

BTW, Hinkle Field House on campus is where parts of Hoosiers were filmed because that's where the events took place in the real story upon which the movie was based.

(02-26-2013 03:50 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 01:06 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  We all know Butler is in and rightfully so, just curious why they get such low attendance given their success in recent years.

They're a small school. An early season home schedule drove down the attendance totals:

Elon
Hanover
Ball State
IUPUI
Evansville
Penn
New Orleans

They averaged close to full capacity for their conference games.

BTW, Hinkle Field House on campus is where parts of Hoosiers were filmed because that's where the events took place in the real story upon which the movie was based.

Alot of the schools in contention are small schools as well. Indianapolis is a relatively large city so not sure why that would matter. Creighton got 16-17K during their nonconference against teams like Longwood and Presbyterian and have had alot less success than Butler recently. Watching a game at Hinkle which has alot of history should make the attendance better IMO as well.

Attendance needs to be one of the criteria considered. Failure to draw at least 6,000 +/- has to raise question marks about a program's ability to support the highest level of college hoops. I would rate Richmond as the lowest acceptable candidate in this regard.

Exceptional attendance also should be considered. Given its distance from even the other midwestern candidates, Creighton's 16,000 average puts them in the game, which otherwise they might drop out of quickly.

(02-26-2013 04:20 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 03:50 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 01:06 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  We all know Butler is in and rightfully so, just curious why they get such low attendance given their success in recent years.

They're a small school. An early season home schedule drove down the attendance totals:

Elon
Hanover
Ball State
IUPUI
Evansville
Penn
New Orleans

They averaged close to full capacity for their conference games.

BTW, Hinkle Field House on campus is where parts of Hoosiers were filmed because that's where the events took place in the real story upon which the movie was based.

Alot of the schools in contention are small schools as well. Indianapolis is a relatively large city so not sure why that would matter. Creighton got 16-17K during their nonconference against teams like Longwood and Presbyterian and have had alot less success than Butler recently. Watching a game at Hinkle which has alot of history should make the attendance better IMO as well.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Yes, Butler is not the only small school. Providence and Creighton have about the same enrollment, but the only school either in the C7 or being seriously considered that's smaller is Richmond. Butler is very small by the standard of big time college athletics.

Being a large city isn't always helpful. It means there are other things to do. Included among them are an NBA team and a very popular NFL team, which also plays part of its season during college basketball season.

Creighton deserves all the credit for their attendance and I've boosted their candidacy here for that reason. But they are exceptional. To not be Creighton is not a bad thing; it means they are not exceptional. Butler's attendance at conference games is over 10,000 in an arena that holds less than 11,000. They're pretty much maxing out. As far as the conference is concerned, attendance at conference games is all they really care about.

Butler's attendance is fine. It's not a reason to take them all by itself. But it's not a reason to cross them off the list. Their candidacy is based on a long history of success over the past 10-15 years with several different coaches, it's based on getting to the championship game 2 of the past 3 years. Institutionally and in terms of a high level of success, they're a perfect fit for this conference, a team that the conference can easily market.

(02-26-2013 06:13 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Attendance needs to be one of the criteria considered. Failure to draw at least 6,000 +/- has to raise question marks about a program's ability to support the highest level of college hoops. I would rate Richmond as the lowest acceptable candidate in this regard.

Exceptional attendance also should be considered. Given its distance from even the other midwestern candidates, Creighton's 16,000 average puts them in the game, which otherwise they might drop out of quickly.

Funny thing about attendance, is some of the C7 schools aren't exactly getting up for the non-marquee games.

For example: Longwood. The Lancers played two C7 teams as well as two C7 hopefuls. Here's how those attendance numbers rank (w/% of capacity).

1. Creighton - 15,826 (90%)
2. VCU - 7,693 (100%)
3. Seton Hall - 6,215 (33%)
4. Georgetown - 5,283 (29%)

Hell, Marshall outdrew Georgetown against Longwood.

It's easy to get up for the Syracuse, UConn and Louisvilles of the world (or even conference play), but it's interesting to look at how fanbases get up for OOC games against cupcake teams on a Wednesday night.

Here's another example, Look at St. John's attendance in non-BCS OOC games...

v Detroit = 3506
v Holy Cross = 4030
v FGCU = 4003
v NJIT = 4314
v UNCA = 4417

They also did 10,000+ somehow against Fordham. Must have let just any random New Yorker looking for a warm place to sit come in to watch that game.

(02-27-2013 12:27 AM)Natty Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 06:13 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Attendance needs to be one of the criteria considered. Failure to draw at least 6,000 +/- has to raise question marks about a program's ability to support the highest level of college hoops. I would rate Richmond as the lowest acceptable candidate in this regard.

Exceptional attendance also should be considered. Given its distance from even the other midwestern candidates, Creighton's 16,000 average puts them in the game, which otherwise they might drop out of quickly.

Funny thing about attendance, is some of the C7 schools aren't exactly getting up for the non-marquee games.

For example: Longwood. The Lancers played two C7 teams as well as two C7 hopefuls. Here's how those attendance numbers rank (w/% of capacity).

1. Creighton - 15,826 (90%)
2. VCU - 7,693 (100%)
3. Seton Hall - 6,215 (33%)
4. Georgetown - 5,283 (29%)

Hell, Marshall outdrew Georgetown against Longwood.

It's easy to get up for the Syracuse, UConn and Louisvilles of the world (or even conference play), but it's interesting to look at how fanbases get up for OOC games against cupcake teams on a Wednesday night.

Here's another example, Look at St. John's attendance in non-BCS OOC games...

v Detroit = 3506
v Holy Cross = 4030
v FGCU = 4003
v NJIT = 4314
v UNCA = 4417

They also did 10,000+ somehow against Fordham. Must have let just any random New Yorker looking for a warm place to sit come in to watch that game.

Well the Detroit game was part of espn's 24 hours of games to kick off the season and we played at 2pm on a tues. Not a great time for people who work. Not saying we are great but also carnesecca isnt that big.

(02-27-2013 12:27 AM)Natty Wrote:  

(02-26-2013 06:13 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Attendance needs to be one of the criteria considered. Failure to draw at least 6,000 +/- has to raise question marks about a program's ability to support the highest level of college hoops. I would rate Richmond as the lowest acceptable candidate in this regard.

Exceptional attendance also should be considered. Given its distance from even the other midwestern candidates, Creighton's 16,000 average puts them in the game, which otherwise they might drop out of quickly.

Funny thing about attendance, is some of the C7 schools aren't exactly getting up for the non-marquee games.

For example: Longwood. The Lancers played two C7 teams as well as two C7 hopefuls. Here's how those attendance numbers rank (w/% of capacity).

1. Creighton - 15,826 (90%)
2. VCU - 7,693 (100%)
3. Seton Hall - 6,215 (33%)
4. Georgetown - 5,283 (29%)

Hell, Marshall outdrew Georgetown against Longwood.

It's easy to get up for the Syracuse, UConn and Louisvilles of the world (or even conference play), but it's interesting to look at how fanbases get up for OOC games against cupcake teams on a Wednesday night.

Here's another example, Look at St. John's attendance in non-BCS OOC games...

v Detroit = 3506
v Holy Cross = 4030
v FGCU = 4003
v NJIT = 4314
v UNCA = 4417

They also did 10,000+ somehow against Fordham. Must have let just any random New Yorker looking for a warm place to sit come in to watch that game.

That day was part of the MSG Holiday Festival Double-Header with St Johns vs Fordham...and Iona vs Rutgers.....attendance was totaled for one number for both games.

Butler will average right at 8000 per game this year, which is more or less what capacity will be when the renovation project (30mm) is completed.

(02-26-2013 12:25 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Rank. Team, Attendance-Capacity (%)

C7:
2. Marquette, 15,138-18850 (80.3%)
4. Georgetown, 11,283-18756 (60.2%)
7. Villanova, 8,923-13414 (66.5%) [average between Pavilion and Well's Fargo Center)
8. St. John's 8,428-11901 (70.8%) [average between Carnesecca and Madison Square Garden)
9. Providence, 7,883-12400 (63.6%)
11. DePaul, 7,740-17500 (44.2%)
13. Seton Hall, 6,941-18751 (37.1%)

Candidates (All of them, even the "not a chance" teams)
1. Creighton, 16,665-18320 (90.9%)
3. Dayton, 12,154-13345 (91.1%)
5. Wichita State, 10,391 (99.9%)
6. Xavier, 10,155-10250 (99.1%)
10. Saint Louis, 7,757-10600 (73.2%)
12. VCU, 7,622-7617 (100.0%)
14. Butler, 6,599-10000 (66.0%)
15. Siena, 6,509-15229 (41.9%)
16. Gonzaga, 6,212-6000 (103.5%)
17. Richmond, 5,660-9071 (62.4%)
18. Detroit, 2,210-8295 (26.4%)



Do these rankings mean anything to you? I think they show the schools with the most dedication to their programs, so they work as a good estimate of revenue potential and fan support. I included the percentage of capacity filled to illustrate how much support some of these programs are getting. Your top 6 candidates are averaging over 90% attendance, and four of those are averaging nearly or over 100%.

The numbers on the C7 aren't incredibly accurate, because a lot of teams use multiple arenas (and not in even amounts, like I estimated). Still, I think we can say that the potential candidates are probably not as fickle as the C7 schools are. It should be noted that these attendance numbers do not show average price per ticket, which would be an interesting comparison.

Thanks for putting this together. I think it pretty much shows that the 6000 to 8000 average attendance range is in the "safe" category for the C7. As Melky Cabrera said for Butler, the schools in that range are neither hurt nor helped by their attendance numbers. Getting over 10,000 per game is a legit accomplishment, as there are many programs within the 5 power football conferences that aren't able to do that for their basketball teams.

Probably the biggest thing that the list clearly shows is why Detroit can't be a viable candidate despite being in a large market and putting a pretty good basketball team on the floor lately. Having that little support (and during a time when the team is on the upswing) isn't workable. Detroit might get some consideration to backfill the A-10.

With only the new members.

Rank. Team, Attendance-Capacity (%)

1. Creighton, 16,665-18320 (90.9%)
2. Marquette, 15,138-18850 (80.3%)
3. Dayton, 12,154-13345 (91.1%)
4. Georgetown, 11,283-18756 (60.2%)
5. Xavier, 10,155-10250 (99.1%)
6. Villanova, 8,923-13414 (66.5%) [average between Pavilion and Well's Fargo Center)
7. St. John's 8,428-11901 (70.8%) [average between Carnesecca and Madison Square Garden)
8. Providence, 7,883-12400 (63.6%)
9. Saint Louis, 7,757-10600 (73.2%)
10. DePaul, 7,740-17500 (44.2%)
11. Seton Hall, 6,941-18751 (37.1%)
12. Butler, 6,599-10000 (66.0%)

(02-26-2013 01:06 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  We all know Butler is in and rightfully so, just curious why they get such low attendance given their success in recent years.

Butler probably has the worst home schedule of anyone in the bunch. Other than home dates with Louisville and Xavier, their next best home opponent last year was either Milwaukee or Valpo. Hard to sell season tickets with that type of schedule. One of the downsides of being in a big city with an NBA team is that no one will bother coming unless you're playing big names.

My brother is a Butler booster. They more than doubled their donation levels for last year at all levels. And yet they still had way more demand than the previous year. They're midway through fundraising for a $20 million overhaul of their stadium that will expand the high roller suites and make the whole arena operate more efficiently (not that it's bad now, but this can only help attendance).

Butler will do well in attendance once they're playing teams that people actually want to see.

As I said not three posts above. Butler sells out all weekend dates now. (10k). Most recent dates, such as Xavier coming up, sold old months ago. Butler will average 8000 this year. Butler's capacity will be just over 8000.