There was a recent discussion here about when the modern era began. There were many good opinions and many relevant facts offered, i.e. rules that changed the game like elimination of the jump ball, introduction of the 3-point shot, and the 35-second shot clock. Other important changes were discussed like the hardship rule and the evolution to one-and-done.

As important as all of these were to how the game was/is played, none of them change the fact that a champion is still the champion, earned under the rules and the basketball culture of its time. I'd like to suggest that the modern era began at the point when the whole meaning of the tournament changed:

1976

That's when the tournament expanded to include conference runners up. Previously a team could be #2 in the country but if they finished second in their own conference, they were not allowed to compete for the national championship. In that first year, the finals had two teams from the same conference competing for the title in the final game. That change led to continued expansion and the inclusion of many more teams from the same conference.

Here is a list of champions since 1976 who would not even have made it to the tournament before 1976:

1985 - Villanova
1988 - Kansas
1989 - Michigan
1991 - Duke
1993 - North Carolina
1996 - Kentucky
1997 - Arizona
2002 - Maryland
2003 - Syracuse
2005 - North Carolina
2009 - North Carolina
2012 - Kentucky

In addition, the following champions ended their seasons in a tie for a title in a conference that had no tournament. In the past, a tie breaker or a playoff would have been used to determine the bid. But in the modern era, they could take both or all 3 teams into the tournament who were tied. Had the ties been resolved, the team that eventually won the tournament might have been excluded:

1979 - Michigan State
1987 - Indiana

That rule changed everything including the meaning of the championship itself.

Counting Titles:
Looking at the list of rules changes that College Basketball Fan posted a couple of days ago, I would say that it should go back to at least 1958 as far as counting titles. Since then, there have only been 3 real adjustments... (1) Jump balls changed, (2) shot clock slowly introduced to liven the game, and (3) the 3 pointer, which maybe should be pushed farther out. Also, pre 58 there were a bunch of significant point shaving scandals.

"Expanded Postseason":
Baseball had expanded their postseason in '69, but I think most would consider the '69 Mets and '68 Tigers' World Series titles to be equal.

"Modern Era":
To answer your question another way, the UCLA-Houston game at the Astrodome was always given special consideration as a groundbreaking event.

the playing rules may have changed- but to me the biggest things
1- hardship rule for the NBA draft
2- the getting rid of the champion only for the NCAA tourney
3- Shot clock/3 point shot(done back to back years)
4- NBA institutes 1 yr rule

with a mention to the expansion of the tourney from 32 to 64 in a span of 6-7 years.

The modern era began between 1975 at the earliest and 1985 at the latest.

1975 - first tourney with 32 teams and that allowed two teams from the same conference. First Monday night championship game. Also, last tournament of the John Wooden/UCLA era
1979 - Tourney expanded to 40. Larry Bird- Magic Johnson final. Most watched final ever.
1980 - Tourney expands to 48 and allows unlimited at large schools from individual conferences.
1982 - Dome era begins with Final Four at Superdome (ignoring one time only 1971 Final Four at Astrodome). Michael Jordan-Patrick Ewing final
1983 - NC St. Upset over Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma
1985 - Tourney expands to 64. Villanova upset over Georgetown

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/04...2007/2844/

(02-23-2013 11:44 PM)billyjack Wrote:  Counting Titles:
Looking at the list of rules changes that College Basketball Fan posted a couple of days ago, I would say that it should go back to at least 1958 as far as counting titles. Since then, there have only been 3 real adjustments... (1) Jump balls changed, (2) shot clock slowly introduced to liven the game, and (3) the 3 pointer, which maybe should be pushed farther out. Also, pre 58 there were a bunch of significant point shaving scandals.

"Expanded Postseason":
Baseball had expanded their postseason in '69, but I think most would consider the '69 Mets and '68 Tigers' World Series titles to be equal.

"Modern Era":
To answer your question another way, the UCLA-Houston game at the Astrodome was always given special consideration as a groundbreaking event.

I like your 1958 date, but I'd go back a little farther to 1955. Starting with that year, no valid argument could be made that the NCAA champion was not the best team in the country. Although there were still top ten teams going to the NIT t
Up to the early 1970's, by 1955, the NCAA tournament was getting almost all of the best teams in the country. However, before '55, a valid argument could be made many years that the NIT champion was the best team in the country.

(02-24-2013 09:08 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The modern era began between 1975 at the earliest and 1985 at the latest.

1975 - first tourney with 32 teams and that allowed two teams from the same conference. First Monday night championship game. Also, last tournament of the John Wooden/UCLA era
1979 - Tourney expanded to 40. Larry Bird- Magic Johnson final. Most watched final ever.
1980 - Tourney expands to 48
1982 - Dome era begins with Final Four at Superdome (ignoring one time only 1971 Final Four at Astrodome). Michael Jordan-Patrick Ewing final
1983 - NC St. Upset over Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma
1985 - Tourney expands to 64. Villanova upset over Georgetown

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/04...2007/2844/

Thanks for correcting my 1976 date to 1975. My memory was faulty on that one.

I think you've put your finger on the transitional decade. Bullseye.

One of the most significant changes in that decade was moving teams outside of their region, which was necessitated by having more than one team from a single conference. Before that teams were strictly assigned to predetermined regions with the result that the best 4 teams in the country could theoretically all be competing in the same region & therefore be eliminated before the Final 4. At the same time another region could have competition without a single ranked team.

While neither of these 2 scenarios happened, it came pretty close. The old Mideast region was particular strong and I can remember years when that region had multiple top 10 teams. In contrast, the Midwest region, dominated by football conferences, was without a single top ten team many years. The NIT, which often had top ten teams even in the '60's and '70's, was a better team many years than the Midwest regional champ. Yet, NIT champs are often ignored these days while schools will point with pride to the Final 4 teams in their history. If the old Missouri Valley Conference had a down year, the Midwest typically didn't have a top team.

For me, the significance of the expansion decade which you've identified is that to be NCAA champion meant something completely different before 1975 than it has since then. UCLA, for example, typically played only 4 games on the way to its championship runs and the first 3 games were often against weak opponents. Not only were teams rigidly assigned to predetermined regions, but the national semi-finals were always West vs Midwest and East vs Mideast, meaning that UCLA (or any other West regional champion) always got the winner of the weak Midwest region in the national semi-finals.

(02-24-2013 09:08 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The modern era began between 1975 at the earliest and 1985 at the latest.

1975 - first tourney with 32 teams and that allowed two teams from the same conference. First Monday night championship game. Also, last tournament of the John Wooden/UCLA era
1979 - Tourney expanded to 40. Larry Bird- Magic Johnson final. Most watched final ever.
1980 - Tourney expands to 48
1982 - Dome era begins with Final Four at Superdome (ignoring one time only 1971 Final Four at Astrodome). Michael Jordan-Patrick Ewing final
1983 - NC St. Upset over Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma
1985 - Tourney expands to 64. Villanova upset over Georgetown

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/04...2007/2844/

You forgot the most important year of all... 1984 Georgetown dominates to win the championship!

(02-24-2013 10:58 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-24-2013 09:08 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The modern era began between 1975 at the earliest and 1985 at the latest.

1975 - first tourney with 32 teams and that allowed two teams from the same conference. First Monday night championship game. Also, last tournament of the John Wooden/UCLA era
1979 - Tourney expanded to 40. Larry Bird- Magic Johnson final. Most watched final ever.
1980 - Tourney expands to 48
1982 - Dome era begins with Final Four at Superdome (ignoring one time only 1971 Final Four at Astrodome). Michael Jordan-Patrick Ewing final
1983 - NC St. Upset over Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma
1985 - Tourney expands to 64. Villanova upset over Georgetown

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/04...2007/2844/

You forgot the most important year of all... 1984 Georgetown dominates to win the championship!

I loved that Georgetown broke through and one that championship after a 30 year drought in NCAA championships for Eastern basketball. I'm sure that I cheered as hard as any Georgetown fan.

One for all and all for one!

You guys go way back, I wasn't born until 1983 so to me, the modern era began in 1983

(02-24-2013 11:32 AM)ivet Wrote:  You guys go way back, I wasn't born until 1983 so to me, the modern era began in 1983

I hear ya. NC State wins NC, winning basket scored by Brooklyn's own Lorenzo Charles, team coached by LI native, Jimmy V.

But you bring up an important point. Eras can be defined at any point anyone wants to define them. Notre Dame has gotten a lot of mileage out of championships from before I was born and I have kids older than you.

But relevance is something else. I think if you're going back much more than 10 years, it's not really relevant to what the program is right now. 20 years would be my outer limit. But even when you go back 20 years, rarely are programs being coached by the same guy who put them on the map back then with obvious exceptions like the current Duke & Syracuse programs - although both will probably be hiring a new coach within the next 5 years.

As an example, UCLA was once a great program. So what? They're still a top program, but what they did in the Wooden era has little relevance to the program that they are today. What is impressive is a program like North Carolina which have been able to sustain a level of excellence decade after decade while changing coaches, AD's, presidents etc. I'd love to put Kentucky in the same category but when we're dealing with the most penalized program in college basketball history the sustained excellence we're talking about is excellence at cheating, not anything else.

(02-24-2013 09:08 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The modern era began between 1975 at the earliest and 1985 at the latest.

This.

And I'd argue for closer to 1975 than 1985.

for the tournament structure it may be closer to 75 than 85, but playing rules wise, it's got to be closer to 85 than 75. I mean, shot clock and 3 pt shot modernized the game like little else. Esp the shot clock.

Oh and another rule that sneakily changes a game and strategy is something that got put in for 93-94 season- clock stopping last minute of game on made baskets.

Also 2 other rules that are kind of important both 90-91- 3 free throws for missed 3 point shot, and double bonus for fouls after 10.

The 3 point shot and shot clock changed strategies and I think improved the game, but today's basketball would still be recognizable 50+ years ago. So I guess a question is what does "modernize" mean?

Neither of these rules really changed the game. They weren't like having jump balls after each made basket like in 1929... or not being allowed to dribble like in 1909... the game today is very similar and recognizable to the way it was in 1965 or 1955.

Like, baseball is the same in 2013 at it was in 1913. The ball was livened, but new rules didn't change the game too much. We'd recognize the game in 1913, but it would just have more stolen bases. 4 balls for a walk is in place. Rules like limiting mound visits per inning quickened the game. The DH in '73 is a significant change, but the game is still recognizable.

From memory, here's what I remember about the several college hoops rules changes:

The shot clock:
- rewards defenses.
- eliminates stalling the clock.
- There was resistance to the shot clock in the early 80's. The argument was that "no shot clock" forced the defense to play aggressively; and that the 5-second hash mark rule was in a sense "the shot clock"; and that if the defense couldn't guard the point guard well enough to get the ball back, why should the offense be penalized? These were the key anti-shot-clock arguments.
- Teams would kill the clock for several reasons. The main one was of course in close games to run the clock down. Also, if a star player picked up a 4th foul mid-2nd-half, the team would kill the clock while he sat the bench. Also, teams that were big underdogs would try to shorten the game and limit the number of possessions. The problem came about in particular when teams would kill the clock even when losing, and some games had ridiculous scores. I think Louisville won a game 24-11 against an underdog. One game was 7-0 at the half (I think it was UNC-Duke maybe).
- Overtime used to be ridiculous. Sometimes, whichever team won the jump ball would hold the ball for 4:57 before putting up the only shot in overtime.
- There are exceptions of course, but basically a 10 point lead was a huge deficit to overcome. An 8 to 10 point game back then played like a 16 to 20 point lead today.

The 3-pt shot:
- keeps centers from totally dominating the game.
- keeps defenses from packing in a zone.
- allows teams to make up points quickly near the end of the game.
- The resistance to the 3-point shot is that a team could dominate all game, play great fundamental basketball with a great half-court offense, and build up a big lead; but then coupled with the shot clock, their opponent could get a flurry of threes to win the game.
- The 3-pt distance is now back to a more sensible 20'-9", but at first the line was at the top of the circle.

Jump Ball/ Possession Arrow:
For many or most jump ball calls, this is what would result:
- Coaches and fans would complain that the ref's toss was unfair or sucked. This was a huge complaint.
- Any time there was a fight for the ball on the floor, a rugby scrum would result with the players' intent being that the tallest players would hope to get the call for the tie-up (the jump ball would be between the two players who were fighting for the ball)... which resulted in:
- Coaches would complain that the wrong players were involved in the tie-up. If 6 players were in the scrum, it would be impossible for the refs to pick the two players out who would jump. So the possession arrow came into effect, which I think has solved the problem.
- No more odd jump balls involving, say, Shawn Bradley and Spud Webb.

I think I would say the shot clock changed the look of the game mroe than anything else. strategy, end of game situations, everything. Something like Jump Ball/Possession arrow has some impacts, but not every single game guaranteed. The shot clock on the other hand does impact every single close game without an exception.

All of these rules certainly changed how the game is played, but they don't change the fact that a championship is a championship.

I would contend that the meaning of the championship changed dramatically, starting in 1975 when access changed. So, when citing championships and Final Fours before 1975, they just don't mean the same thing. They certainly enhance a program's reputation with its history, but they don't reflect the success of a program in the same way that championships and Final 4's do since then.

(02-25-2013 04:28 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  All of these rules certainly changed how the game is played, but they don't change the fact that a championship is a championship.

I would contend that the meaning of the championship changed dramatically, starting in 1975 when access changed. So, when citing championships and Final Fours before 1975, they just don't mean the same thing. They certainly enhance a program's reputation with its history, but they don't reflect the success of a program in the same way that championships and Final 4's do since then.

I agree. Before 1975, top 10 schools were regularly left out of the NCAA tournament, even some top 5 schools, because of the limitation of one school per conference. The opening of the tournament in 1975 to two schools per conference, and then further to unlimited schools per conference in 1980, ensured that all schools with a realistic chance of winning the national championship were in the NCAA, i.e., none were in the the NIT.

1975 also represents the end of the UCLA dynasty, which was replaced by the more competitively balanced era that still exists. Prior to the start of the UCLA dynasty, the NIT was even more comparable to the NCAA's in stature. As a separate issue, racial segregation still existed in some conferences during the early part of the UCLA dynasty.

While the shot clock and 3 point shot have revolutionized the game, the modern championship era started between 1975 and 1985, depending on which milestone you think is most important.

(02-25-2013 05:49 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(02-25-2013 04:28 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  All of these rules certainly changed how the game is played, but they don't change the fact that a championship is a championship.

I would contend that the meaning of the championship changed dramatically, starting in 1975 when access changed. So, when citing championships and Final Fours before 1975, they just don't mean the same thing. They certainly enhance a program's reputation with its history, but they don't reflect the success of a program in the same way that championships and Final 4's do since then.

I agree. Before 1975, top 10 schools were regularly left out of the NCAA tournament, even some top 5 schools, because of the limitation of one school per conference. The opening of the tournament in 1975 to two schools per conference, and then further to unlimited schools per conference in 1980, ensured that all schools with a realistic chance of winning the national championship were in the NCAA, i.e., none were in the the NIT.

1975 also represents the end of the UCLA dynasty, which was replaced by the more competitively balanced era that still exists. Prior to the start of the UCLA dynasty, the NIT was even more comparable to the NCAA's in stature. As a separate issue, racial segregation still existed in some conferences during the early part of the UCLA dynasty.

While the shot clock and 3 point shot have revolutionized the game, the modern championship era started between 1975 and 1985, depending on which milestone you think is most important.

I think there's a difference between the modern championship era (which clearly started in 1975), and the modern game era(which to me started with the shot clock). I know it's a cop out answer but I think both are very right quite frankly.

(02-25-2013 07:55 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-25-2013 05:49 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(02-25-2013 04:28 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  All of these rules certainly changed how the game is played, but they don't change the fact that a championship is a championship.

I would contend that the meaning of the championship changed dramatically, starting in 1975 when access changed. So, when citing championships and Final Fours before 1975, they just don't mean the same thing. They certainly enhance a program's reputation with its history, but they don't reflect the success of a program in the same way that championships and Final 4's do since then.

I agree. Before 1975, top 10 schools were regularly left out of the NCAA tournament, even some top 5 schools, because of the limitation of one school per conference. The opening of the tournament in 1975 to two schools per conference, and then further to unlimited schools per conference in 1980, ensured that all schools with a realistic chance of winning the national championship were in the NCAA, i.e., none were in the the NIT.

1975 also represents the end of the UCLA dynasty, which was replaced by the more competitively balanced era that still exists. Prior to the start of the UCLA dynasty, the NIT was even more comparable to the NCAA's in stature. As a separate issue, racial segregation still existed in some conferences during the early part of the UCLA dynasty.

While the shot clock and 3 point shot have revolutionized the game, the modern championship era started between 1975 and 1985, depending on which milestone you think is most important.

I think there's a difference between the modern championship era (which clearly started in 1975), and the modern game era(which to me started with the shot clock). I know it's a cop out answer but I think both are very right quite frankly.

Not a cop out answer. You're absolutely right.