A few points in the Katz/McMurphy story on ESPN:

1. Marinatto recommended that the Big East take the $1.17 billion ESPN deal that would have paid football schools $13.8 million annually and non-football schools (including ND) $2.3 million. For all the abuse he took when he was commissioner, I don't think that enough attention has been given to this point. Marinatto brought the league one heck of a deal and it was the college presidents who turned it down. So, where was the incompetent leadership? Not in Providence. Next time anyone wants to complain about conference leadership, look in your school's mirror for your school's president. If Marinatto's advice had been followed, the league would probably be intact today.

2. The C7 would only have gotten $2.3 million annually in that deal. Even without UConn, Louisville, Syracuse, West Virginia, & Pitt, they've been able to negotiate a deal for about a million per year more than that - even before the rest of their new league's members are known. So, who was getting screwed in the hybrid? Next time the football schools whine about how the hybrid held them back, I'll have a million reasons to prove them wrong.

Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

even tough 13 million was not going to stop anybody leaving.
your right about one thing, BYU, SDST, Boise & Air Force would be in BE
C-7 wouldn't be going anywhere

(02-11-2013 10:01 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  A few points in the Katz/McMurphy story on ESPN:

1. Marinatto recommended that the Big East take the $1.17 billion ESPN deal that would have paid football schools $13.8 million annually and non-football schools (including ND) $2.3 million. For all the abuse he took when he was commissioner, I don't think that enough attention has been given to this point. Marinatto brought the league one heck of a deal and it was the college presidents who turned it down.

Was it really a good deal for the schools who were there? Look at who was in the Big East at that time.

Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Rutgers, Louisville, Notre Dame -- all will be making more in their new league than they would have made under that ESPN/BE deal.

C-7 -- will be making more than $2.3 million/school/year if reports are correct.

UConn, Cincinnati, and USF are the only three schools (out of 16) who would have made more money if the BE had signed that ESPN deal and everyone had stayed.

I think the one who maybe was viewed higher that needs to get knocked down a bunch is Tranghese. This TV deal that he signed with the clauses etc. is just awful. Marinato probably gets viewed in the end a bit better.

I am afraid that history will show that the C7 should have split right after Pitt and Syracuse left. Put a lot of schools thru a needless charade.

(02-11-2013 01:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I am afraid that history will show that the C7 should have split right after Pitt and Syracuse left. Put a lot of schools thru a needless charade.

I agree that the Pitt/Syracuse departure will be looked at as the trigger for the 2005-2013 version of the BE, but the C7 were not leaving as long as ND was in the league. I believe ND to the ACC was the tipping point that led to conversations with Fox and others.

(02-11-2013 03:40 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 01:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I am afraid that history will show that the C7 should have split right after Pitt and Syracuse left. Put a lot of schools thru a needless charade.

I agree that the Pitt/Syracuse departure will be looked at as the trigger for the 2005-2013 version of the BE, but the C7 were not leaving as long as ND was in the league. I believe ND to the ACC was the tipping point that led to conversations with Fox and others.

You're confusing Notre Dame with Louisville. And I'm pretty sure that we were handcuffed from talking to anybody until the ESPN window was finished. Once that was done, we were exploring options, Notre Dame or no Notre Dame.

My take away from this thread.....

Meatball Rocks!

(02-11-2013 10:21 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

Hey bit, then why did they okay every member the FB schools brought up for membership? The FB schools couldn't agree on who to add. Some wanted ECU, some wanted UCF some were blocking those. Some were blocking Temple. It's the FB schools who caused the instability. Just look at the list if who was added and who bolted and that's all you need to know. The BBall gave legitimacy to a those schools who moved on. VT, WVU, BC, uofL, TCU etc

(02-11-2013 04:12 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:21 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

Hey bit, then why did they okay every member the FB schools brought up for membership? The FB schools couldn't agree on who to add. Some wanted ECU, some wanted UCF some were blocking those. Some were blocking Temple. It's the FB schools who caused the instability. Just look at the list if who was added and who bolted and that's all you need to know. The BBall gave legitimacy to a those schools who moved on. VT, WVU, BC, uofL, TCU etc

They're just still mad that Syracuse liked us better.

(02-11-2013 03:54 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 03:40 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 01:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I am afraid that history will show that the C7 should have split right after Pitt and Syracuse left. Put a lot of schools thru a needless charade.

I agree that the Pitt/Syracuse departure will be looked at as the trigger for the 2005-2013 version of the BE, but the C7 were not leaving as long as ND was in the league. I believe ND to the ACC was the tipping point that led to conversations with Fox and others.

You're confusing Notre Dame with Louisville. And I'm pretty sure that we were handcuffed from talking to anybody until the ESPN window was finished. Once that was done, we were exploring options, Notre Dame or no Notre Dame.

I am not confusing the two. I believe the tipping point for the C-7 occurred well before Louisville to the ACC. I believe the C-7 (most, if not all) began to look into splitting once they knew ND was leaving (which was before the ND announcement). I have heard from several sources that it was common knowledge in the MU athletic department that ND was talking to the ACC long before their announcement. ND was probably aware of the C-7 split discussions as well. The C-7 may have been handcuffed from talking to Fox and others until the appropriate time had passed, but they could discuss internally the merits of splitting the conference. I believe they were doing that.

(02-11-2013 06:06 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 03:54 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 03:40 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 01:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I am afraid that history will show that the C7 should have split right after Pitt and Syracuse left. Put a lot of schools thru a needless charade.

I agree that the Pitt/Syracuse departure will be looked at as the trigger for the 2005-2013 version of the BE, but the C7 were not leaving as long as ND was in the league. I believe ND to the ACC was the tipping point that led to conversations with Fox and others.

You're confusing Notre Dame with Louisville. And I'm pretty sure that we were handcuffed from talking to anybody until the ESPN window was finished. Once that was done, we were exploring options, Notre Dame or no Notre Dame.

I am not confusing the two. I believe the tipping point for the C-7 occurred well before Louisville to the ACC. I believe the C-7 (most, if not all) began to look into splitting once they knew ND was leaving (which was before the ND announcement). I have heard from several sources that it was common knowledge in the MU athletic department that ND was talking to the ACC long before their announcement. ND was probably aware of the C-7 split discussions as well. The C-7 may have been handcuffed from talking to Fox and others until the appropriate time had passed, but they could discuss internally the merits of splitting the conference. I believe they were doing that.

I think they were _discussing_ it in the fall of 2011. I was.

I could be wrong, it's possible that I'm under-rating Notre Dame's cultural pull. But the timing says that Louisville was the last straw. Louisville was also a lot more important to the TV contract that the C-7 care about, the basketball contract.

I think trading Notre Dame for nothing was less of a factor than trading Louisville for Tulane. (No offense to Tulane's awesomeness, but that's a bad basketball trade.)

Another piece of the jigsaw puzzle, if the C-7 had already decided to split, why bother cockblocking ECU? The ECU football-only invite points to the C-7 split decision happening after Louisville leaving. Not long after, obviously.

People are forgetting that the schools were prepared to take that offer until the PAC 12 announced their $20 mil per year per school deal. As soon as that was announced there was no way the BE schools were taking $7 mil per year less.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

(02-11-2013 04:12 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:21 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

Hey bit, then why did they okay every member the FB schools brought up for membership? The FB schools couldn't agree on who to add. Some wanted ECU, some wanted UCF some were blocking those. Some were blocking Temple. It's the FB schools who caused the instability. Just look at the list if who was added and who bolted and that's all you need to know. The BBall gave legitimacy to a those schools who moved on. VT, WVU, BC, uofL, TCU etc

That's not exactly true, dude. WVU promoted ECU for membership from the beginning. But nobody else wanted the Pirates as members, including VT, a program that ECU could have emulated given the chance. If you'll remember, the Hokies were in the same boat as ECU prior to 1991. Although back then they were known as VPI...

UofL, UC, and USF were emergency replacements for Miami, VT, and BC, and they were added hurriedly to prevent a collapse of the football side of the conference, which was in doubt due to the reluctance for expanding the role of football in the conference. There were serious debates about disbanding the football conference, prior to deciding to expand with those 3 schools, which would have put of severe crimp in a lot of plans. WVU also pushed for a larger expansion, which would have stabilized the conference. But the non-football schools wanted to keep the conference hierarchy stable at 8 schools apiece, plus ND. WVU wanted to expand to 10 or 12 for more stability...

None of the suggestions from West Virginia on how best to improve the football product were heeded. WVU was considered a 2nd class citizen by the majority of BEast schools, until their upset of Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, when we became the conference savior. But the debate on whether or not to split away from the non-football schools continued...

It was only after it was clear that the football schools would split off and form their own conference, if the non-football schools didn't act to support football, that any new members were approved. There was a good bit of debate over who was a good candidate for expansion, before TCU's candidacy was pushed forward. But by then, it was too late...

Marinatto was a terrible commish, and should have been canned long before he was pushed out. He should have seized momentum after TCU was added by getting BYU and Boise in November of 2011, but didn't. He allowed the basketball schools to hold the league back from the football way of thinking; then it was too late. Instead he went on and on about "we will only add schools of value". It was funny that those candidates mentioned at the time that didn't add value were added only after WVU, TCU, Pitt, and Syracuse said they were leaving. That $13.8 million per year per school deal wouldn't have kept anyone from leaving. If you find out two schools are leaving your league by a media member, you aren't doing your job.
A Big East looking like this would have been a power league.
BE-East: Louisville, WVU, UConn, Rutgers, Pitt, Syracuse
BE-West: Cincinnati, Temple, TCU, Boise, BYU, USF

(02-11-2013 07:02 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 04:12 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:21 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

Hey bit, then why did they okay every member the FB schools brought up for membership? The FB schools couldn't agree on who to add. Some wanted ECU, some wanted UCF some were blocking those. Some were blocking Temple. It's the FB schools who caused the instability. Just look at the list if who was added and who bolted and that's all you need to know. The BBall gave legitimacy to a those schools who moved on. VT, WVU, BC, uofL, TCU etc

That's not exactly true, dude. WVU promoted ECU for membership from the beginning. But nobody else wanted the Pirates as members, including VT, a program that ECU could have emulated given the chance. If you'll remember, the Hokies were in the same boat as ECU prior to 1991. Although back then they were known as VPI...

UofL, UC, and USF were emergency replacements for Miami, VT, and BC, and they were added hurriedly to prevent a collapse of the football side of the conference, which was in doubt due to the reluctance for expanding the role of football in the conference. There were serious debates about disbanding the football conference, prior to deciding to expand with those 3 schools, which would have put of severe crimp in a lot of plans. WVU also pushed for a larger expansion, which would have stabilized the conference. But the non-football schools wanted to keep the conference hierarchy stable at 8 schools apiece, plus ND. WVU wanted to expand to 10 or 12 for more stability...

None of the suggestions from West Virginia on how best to improve the football product were heeded. WVU was considered a 2nd class citizen by the majority of BEast schools, until their upset of Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, when we became the conference savior. But the debate on whether or not to split away from the non-football schools continued...

It was only after it was clear that the football schools would split off and form their own conference, if the non-football schools didn't act to support football, that any new members were approved. There was a good bit of debate over who was a good candidate for expansion, before TCU's candidacy was pushed forward. But by then, it was too late...

You are off on some of the details. When the first ACC raid took place there was an agreement that the two sides would split once they both had enough years to get an NCAA AQ for BBall and other sports. That's why the prenup exists. Both sides would split after the required amount if years had past. Then the realized that putting 10+ teams in the NCAA was pretty sweet so they stayed together longer than they originally thought. There was no conspiracy to keep FB down it was about dealing with a BBall league with more than 16 teams. The BBall schools showed they were willing to help the FB side by adding TCU who did absolutely nothing for them. The FB schools didn't trust each other which proved to be a correct assessment. Pitt pushed to turn down that espn contract and a month later they announced they were leaving for the ACC.

You are misinformed on how everything went down.

(02-11-2013 07:20 PM)Villecard Wrote:  Marinatto was a terrible commish, and should have been canned long before he was pushed out. He should have seized momentum after TCU was added by getting BYU and Boise in November of 2011, but didn't. Instead he went on and on about "we will only add schools of value". It was funny that those candidates mentioned at the time that didn't add value were added only after WVU, TCU, Pitt, and Syracuse said they were leaving. That $13.8 million per year per school deal wouldn't have kept anyone from leaving. If you find out two schools are leaving your league by a media member, you aren't doing your job.

You know it's up to the schools to add other schools not the commish right? The FB schools didn't want to go west. They couldn't agree on adding anyone besides TCU.

BYU and Boise weren't even discussed then. Marinatto didn't have that vision needed. A talented commish would have found a way to get it done.

(02-11-2013 07:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 07:20 PM)Villecard Wrote:  Marinatto was a terrible commish, and should have been canned long before he was pushed out. He should have seized momentum after TCU was added by getting BYU and Boise in November of 2011, but didn't. Instead he went on and on about "we will only add schools of value". It was funny that those candidates mentioned at the time that didn't add value were added only after WVU, TCU, Pitt, and Syracuse said they were leaving. That $13.8 million per year per school deal wouldn't have kept anyone from leaving. If you find out two schools are leaving your league by a media member, you aren't doing your job.

You know it's up to the schools to add other schools not the commish right? The FB schools didn't want to go west. They couldn't agree on adding anyone besides TCU.

(02-11-2013 07:25 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 07:02 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 04:12 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:21 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

Hey bit, then why did they okay every member the FB schools brought up for membership? The FB schools couldn't agree on who to add. Some wanted ECU, some wanted UCF some were blocking those. Some were blocking Temple. It's the FB schools who caused the instability. Just look at the list if who was added and who bolted and that's all you need to know. The BBall gave legitimacy to a those schools who moved on. VT, WVU, BC, uofL, TCU etc

That's not exactly true, dude. WVU promoted ECU for membership from the beginning. But nobody else wanted the Pirates as members, including VT, a program that ECU could have emulated given the chance. If you'll remember, the Hokies were in the same boat as ECU prior to 1991. Although back then they were known as VPI...

UofL, UC, and USF were emergency replacements for Miami, VT, and BC, and they were added hurriedly to prevent a collapse of the football side of the conference, which was in doubt due to the reluctance for expanding the role of football in the conference. There were serious debates about disbanding the football conference, prior to deciding to expand with those 3 schools, which would have put of severe crimp in a lot of plans. WVU also pushed for a larger expansion, which would have stabilized the conference. But the non-football schools wanted to keep the conference hierarchy stable at 8 schools apiece, plus ND. WVU wanted to expand to 10 or 12 for more stability...

None of the suggestions from West Virginia on how best to improve the football product were heeded. WVU was considered a 2nd class citizen by the majority of BEast schools, until their upset of Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, when we became the conference savior. But the debate on whether or not to split away from the non-football schools continued...

It was only after it was clear that the football schools would split off and form their own conference, if the non-football schools didn't act to support football, that any new members were approved. There was a good bit of debate over who was a good candidate for expansion, before TCU's candidacy was pushed forward. But by then, it was too late...

You are off on some of the details. When the first ACC raid took place there was an agreement that the two sides would split once they both had enough years to get an NCAA AQ for BBall and other sports. That's why the prenup exists. Both sides would split after the required amount if years had past. Then the realized that putting 10+ teams in the NCAA was pretty sweet so they stayed together longer than they originally thought. There was no conspiracy to keep FB down it was about dealing with a BBall league with more than 16 teams. The BBall schools showed they were willing to help the FB side by adding TCU who did absolutely nothing for them. The FB schools didn't trust each other which proved to be a correct assessment. Pitt pushed to turn down that espn contract and a month later they announced they were leaving for the ACC.

You are misinformed on how everything went down.

It wasn't so much that the football schools distrusted each other. They just had different priorities. WVU, Pitt, and Rutgers valued football above the other sports, while the rest of the conference was willing to follow wherever the non-football schools led them. Syracuse puts their main focus on basketball, with lacrosse probably being 2nd ahead of football, so they were more than willing to vote with the non-football schools, until the ACC came calling. Orange fans had been hoping for an ACC invite the first time the ACC came calling. But the Virginia legislature got in the way of those plans...

I got none of the details wrong. You're just looking at it from one side of the issue, and I look at it from the other. Neither of us is in basic disagreement, except for how we see things...

(02-11-2013 07:43 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 07:25 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 07:02 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 04:12 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-11-2013 10:21 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Melkey, the non-football schools did hold the football schools back. They were able to because schools like BC, Syracuse, and UConn, founding members of the conference, always sided with the non-football schools against the best interests of football...

Why did those schools do that? Because their first interest was basketball, not football...

The only schools that continually pushed for the improvement of the football product were WVU, Rutgers, and Pitt, with occasional backing from Miami and VT, prior to their exit. But there was never a consensus, or a majority able to overrule the non-football schools, because they kept the membership even, knowing they had the backing of those football schools whose main interest lied outside of football, which gave them confidence in knowing they'd always have control...

Hey bit, then why did they okay every member the FB schools brought up for membership? The FB schools couldn't agree on who to add. Some wanted ECU, some wanted UCF some were blocking those. Some were blocking Temple. It's the FB schools who caused the instability. Just look at the list if who was added and who bolted and that's all you need to know. The BBall gave legitimacy to a those schools who moved on. VT, WVU, BC, uofL, TCU etc

That's not exactly true, dude. WVU promoted ECU for membership from the beginning. But nobody else wanted the Pirates as members, including VT, a program that ECU could have emulated given the chance. If you'll remember, the Hokies were in the same boat as ECU prior to 1991. Although back then they were known as VPI...

UofL, UC, and USF were emergency replacements for Miami, VT, and BC, and they were added hurriedly to prevent a collapse of the football side of the conference, which was in doubt due to the reluctance for expanding the role of football in the conference. There were serious debates about disbanding the football conference, prior to deciding to expand with those 3 schools, which would have put of severe crimp in a lot of plans. WVU also pushed for a larger expansion, which would have stabilized the conference. But the non-football schools wanted to keep the conference hierarchy stable at 8 schools apiece, plus ND. WVU wanted to expand to 10 or 12 for more stability...

None of the suggestions from West Virginia on how best to improve the football product were heeded. WVU was considered a 2nd class citizen by the majority of BEast schools, until their upset of Georgia in the Sugar Bowl, when we became the conference savior. But the debate on whether or not to split away from the non-football schools continued...

It was only after it was clear that the football schools would split off and form their own conference, if the non-football schools didn't act to support football, that any new members were approved. There was a good bit of debate over who was a good candidate for expansion, before TCU's candidacy was pushed forward. But by then, it was too late...

You are off on some of the details. When the first ACC raid took place there was an agreement that the two sides would split once they both had enough years to get an NCAA AQ for BBall and other sports. That's why the prenup exists. Both sides would split after the required amount if years had past. Then the realized that putting 10+ teams in the NCAA was pretty sweet so they stayed together longer than they originally thought. There was no conspiracy to keep FB down it was about dealing with a BBall league with more than 16 teams. The BBall schools showed they were willing to help the FB side by adding TCU who did absolutely nothing for them. The FB schools didn't trust each other which proved to be a correct assessment. Pitt pushed to turn down that espn contract and a month later they announced they were leaving for the ACC.

You are misinformed on how everything went down.

It wasn't so much that the football schools distrusted each other. They just had different priorities. WVU, Pitt, and Rutgers valued football above the other sports, while the rest of the conference was willing to follow wherever the non-football schools led them. Syracuse puts their main focus on basketball, with lacrosse probably being 2nd ahead of football, so they were more than willing to vote with the non-football schools, until the ACC came calling. Orange fans had been hoping for an ACC invite the first time the ACC came calling. But the Virginia legislature got in the way of those plans...

I got none of the details wrong. You're just looking at it from one side of the issue, and I look at it from the other. Neither of us is in basic disagreement, except for how we see things...

Yes, you did get the details wrong. All of the FB schools agreed to split off on their own after the amount of time needed to get an NCAA AQ. Cuse and UConn also agreed to break off from the BBall schools.

Also you are way off saying Cuse cares more about Lacrosse than FB. That's just flat out wrong. They love lacrosse but their AD is a USC guy.