I'm being a bit hypocritical here because I absolutely believe in playing a tough out of conference schedule. If you consider yourself Division I, act like it and play a Division I schedule. I've just always had mixed feelings about the Bracket Buster. The original intent was to give mid-majors on the periphery of an at-large bid a chance to improve their tournament resumes and offer a quality future return game. I like that the Bracket Buster has evolved to include more teams, simply because of the future return game. Otherwise, I just don't see what they offer for a team that isn't in the NCAA at-large hunt. Outside of the fact that there's no way ESPN would match us up with a Gonzaga, Wichita State or Creighton because we don't have comparable RPI's, I don't see what there is to gain. I don't think a late-season break for a non-conference game is any more beneficial than playing at NC State and Michigan was.

Another thing to take into consideration is that a win (or loss) to a better team isn't going to do much for our RPI at this point because we still play NIU, CMU, EMU, and Ball State twice. The minute those team's step onto the floor with us, that drags our RPI down regardless of the game's result. I can remember in an old live chat with Couch, someone asked how WMU could improve their RPI. His response was to tell Ball State to stay at home and not bother coming to play us. It was spot on. Even if we win out and add a high-profile win to that mix, I'm not sure our RPI improves from where it currently stands.

I'm not sure lobbying for a higher-profile game would make much difference anyway. The TV matchups are usually based on RPI and pitting two teams together that can generate good ratings. I don't think this team falls into either category. Iffy RPI, no high-profile wins to generate buzz for TV ratings, and WMU isn't exactly a household name in college basketball. Wichita State, Creighton, Butler, VCU, Gonzaga and those types of schools are going to play each other because they're at least in or on the periphery of the national conscience. I don't think ESPN gains anything by matching them up with us in TV game- in fact, I think they lose. Having two better-known mid-majors play each other generates more interest than we do, and that's ultimately what drives the decision-making behind the TV matchups.

That being said, would I love to see them play Wichita State? YES. I would give up a home game for that. I just don't think it's a realistic expectation right now in terms of RPI and TV exposure. IF we were on the NCAA bubble, giving up a home game to go play Wichita State, Creighton, etc. is something I would definitely get behind. Just not this year.

(02-04-2013 09:53 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I'm a little late to the party. But I beleive that WMU needs to absolutely make certain this is a home game. They played the entire month of December on the road and the fans are finally starting to realize that we actually have a Mens Basketball team and that they are pretty good.

Fill the UA!!!!

To be clear, if we were in Akron's position right now...

17-4 and looking for an at large bid in NCAA's or NIT...and played 7 home games, 3 neutral site game, and 3 true road games in their non conference schedule....then yeah, I'd be all for it.

Of course, Akron is in position to lobby for this because:

1. They chose to not go on the road as much during the non conference schedule...which ultimately hurts their RPI.

2. They lost 2 games at the beginning of the year because Treadwell AND Harney couldn't play due to a clerical error in their athletic dept. office. Neither received their final amateur certification prior to the season starting. (if this happened at WMU, this board would absolutely explode...and rightfully so) And they also blew a game at Detroit that was winnable. 3 losses that were winnable games. Take those 3 and you aren't in a position to ask the committee to go on the road. Sitting at 20-1 gets you in the top 25 and national recognition.

(02-04-2013 10:03 AM)EA3 Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 09:53 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I'm a little late to the party. But I beleive that WMU needs to absolutely make certain this is a home game. They played the entire month of December on the road and the fans are finally starting to realize that we actually have a Mens Basketball team and that they are pretty good.

Fill the UA!!!!

To be clear, if we were in Akron's position right now...

17-4 and looking for an at large bid in NCAA's or NIT...and played 7 home games, 3 neutral site game, and 3 true road games in their non conference schedule....then yeah, I'd be all for it.

Of course, Akron is in position to lobby for this because:

1. They chose to not go on the road as much during the non conference schedule...which ultimately hurts their RPI.

2. They lost 2 games at the beginning of the year because Treadwell AND Harney couldn't play due to a clerical error in their athletic dept. office. Neither received their final amateur certification prior to the season starting. (if this happened at WMU, this board would absolutely explode...and rightfully so) And they also blew a game at Detroit that was winnable. 3 losses that were winnable games. Take those 3 and you aren't in a position to ask the committee to go on the road. Sitting at 20-1 gets you in the top 25 and national recognition.

Let me clear. It wont happen.
If it could, I'm not sure Hawk would be up for it.

But up above your mentioned that hypothetically IF Akron hadnt had the clerical error . . . .

In a previous post your said something along the lines of . . . if hypothetically WMU were in line for an at large.

Hypotheticals dont become reality until someone steps up and makes it happen. Dambrodt is.

Our fan base quivers at the thought. I'm stupified.

The rationale that the fans deserve home games is BS. Having played, sure you love the roar of 10,500 in Read when you spank Miami to secure undisputed first place in the MAC that elicits a SI article the next week or so.

But frankly if you need a crowd you need a life.

I understand the crowd may show up if the team proves it's good. Another hypothetical.

Seek playing the best, even on their turf, spank them (because you arent quivering like your fan base) and come home with their head on a pike.

Geez, we are so freaking soft it makes quick sand look like concrete.

No wonder the MAC and WMU are irrelevant outside of the voices in our own heads.

(02-04-2013 10:25 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 10:03 AM)EA3 Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 09:53 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I'm a little late to the party. But I beleive that WMU needs to absolutely make certain this is a home game. They played the entire month of December on the road and the fans are finally starting to realize that we actually have a Mens Basketball team and that they are pretty good.

Fill the UA!!!!

To be clear, if we were in Akron's position right now...

17-4 and looking for an at large bid in NCAA's or NIT...and played 7 home games, 3 neutral site game, and 3 true road games in their non conference schedule....then yeah, I'd be all for it.

Of course, Akron is in position to lobby for this because:

1. They chose to not go on the road as much during the non conference schedule...which ultimately hurts their RPI.

2. They lost 2 games at the beginning of the year because Treadwell AND Harney couldn't play due to a clerical error in their athletic dept. office. Neither received their final amateur certification prior to the season starting. (if this happened at WMU, this board would absolutely explode...and rightfully so) And they also blew a game at Detroit that was winnable. 3 losses that were winnable games. Take those 3 and you aren't in a position to ask the committee to go on the road. Sitting at 20-1 gets you in the top 25 and national recognition.

Let me clear. It wont happen.
If it could, I'm not sure Hawk would be up for it.

But up above your mentioned that hypothetically IF Akron hadnt had the clerical error . . . .

In a previous post your said something along the lines of . . . if hypothetically WMU were in line for an at large.

Hypotheticals dont become reality until someone steps up and makes it happen. Dambrodt is.

Our fan base quivers at the thought. I'm stupified.

The rationale that the fans deserve home games is BS. Having played, sure you love the roar of 10,500 in Read when you spank Miami to secure undisputed first place in the MAC that elicits a SI article the next week or so.

But frankly if you need a crowd you need a life.

I understand the crowd may show up if the team proves it's good. Another hypothetical.

Seek playing the best, even on their turf, spank them (because you arent quivering like your fan base) and come home with their head on a pike.

Geez, we are so freaking soft it makes quick sand look like concrete.

No wonder the MAC and WMU are irrelevant outside of the voices in our own heads.

I can disagree with anything you have posted here. I guess I'm just looking for that electric atmosphere at the UA. Not sure if this game will bring that, but I'd just like to be at another game like that sometime in the near future.

The thing I agree with most out of your entire post is. "No wonder the MAC and WMU are irrelevant outside of the voices in our own heads." NO TRUER STATEMENT HAS EVER BEEN MADE. And this is so true regardless of the sport. We have a much higher opinion of ourselves that anyone else does of us.

And we're content with it too.

(02-04-2013 10:47 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  And we're content with it too.

It seems like Debbie Downer has taken over here. I would love our Broncos to be a top 25 club. BUT WE AREN'T. I for one like a program that can field both a football and a basketball program. Creighton, Whitica State and VCU don't remember reading anything about their football exploits or their bowl games over the past 40 years or so.

Enjoy what you have people and while it's always nice to dream and strive for bigger and better. Take a breath and realize the fun you can have following and rooting for what you already have. GO BRONCOS WIN THE WEST AND ON TO CLEVELAND.

The old saying, I might be dumb but I'm not stupid.

To repeat, we took our shots at the big time earlier and it didn't work out very well.

We have shots at good competition coming soon enough. Let Akron play the big names and then let's see if we can knock Akron off at MACC. Probably working past Ohio first.

Q. Why do you insist on beating your head against the wall?
A. Because it feels so good when I stop.

Spare us your lectures BUTTON. They were having a fair, hypothetical discussion. Go play "opinion cop" on Blitz if you must.

(02-04-2013 10:25 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 10:03 AM)EA3 Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 09:53 AM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  I'm a little late to the party. But I beleive that WMU needs to absolutely make certain this is a home game. They played the entire month of December on the road and the fans are finally starting to realize that we actually have a Mens Basketball team and that they are pretty good.

Fill the UA!!!!

To be clear, if we were in Akron's position right now...

17-4 and looking for an at large bid in NCAA's or NIT...and played 7 home games, 3 neutral site game, and 3 true road games in their non conference schedule....then yeah, I'd be all for it.

Of course, Akron is in position to lobby for this because:

1. They chose to not go on the road as much during the non conference schedule...which ultimately hurts their RPI.

2. They lost 2 games at the beginning of the year because Treadwell AND Harney couldn't play due to a clerical error in their athletic dept. office. Neither received their final amateur certification prior to the season starting. (if this happened at WMU, this board would absolutely explode...and rightfully so) And they also blew a game at Detroit that was winnable. 3 losses that were winnable games. Take those 3 and you aren't in a position to ask the committee to go on the road. Sitting at 20-1 gets you in the top 25 and national recognition.

Let me clear. It wont happen.
If it could, I'm not sure Hawk would be up for it.

But up above your mentioned that hypothetically IF Akron hadnt had the clerical error . . . .

In a previous post your said something along the lines of . . . if hypothetically WMU were in line for an at large.

Hypotheticals dont become reality until someone steps up and makes it happen. Dambrodt is.

Our fan base quivers at the thought. I'm stupified.

The rationale that the fans deserve home games is BS. Having played, sure you love the roar of 10,500 in Read when you spank Miami to secure undisputed first place in the MAC that elicits a SI article the next week or so.

But frankly if you need a crowd you need a life.

I understand the crowd may show up if the team proves it's good. Another hypothetical.

Seek playing the best, even on their turf, spank them (because you arent quivering like your fan base) and come home with their head on a pike.

Geez, we are so freaking soft it makes quick sand look like concrete.

No wonder the MAC and WMU are irrelevant outside of the voices in our own heads.

Soft? We scheduled the 3rd toughest non conference schedule in the league this year. And some people in this forum think that it was soft. Understandably so after the gauntlet we went through last year.

It has nothing to do with being soft. My opinion has everything to do with the benefits of doing such.

Under different circumstances...maybe closer to Akron's...yeah, I'm all for it.

Under our current circumstances, we have little if anything to gain. I say that because going on the road isn't easy. If losing a Bracketbuster game to a superior team is the difference between winning 19 and 20 games, then the decision is horrible. Huge mind hurdle if we hit 20 games in the win column. Not to mention, the above issue I talked about in regards to possibly hosting a CIT tournament game or two. A win at home with a good crowd goes a long way with who gets to host games and the seeding. Building this team is important. Winning a bracketbuster at home vs potentially losing one on the road could cost us that home game in the postseason. Is it worth going into a program like Wichita or Creighton and testing ourselves worth it? We aren't in position to make that game worth anything other than a moral victory in the unlikely chance that we win or have a good showing.

Do I think Hawk would do such a thing if we were in Akron's position? No...I say this because if we had Akron's record, it would be because we were on the road for the majority of non conference games. That is how he wants to schedule. Dambrot goes the other direction. Hawk does this because he wants the RPI to reflect any road success and he believes it prepares us to win on the road in the MAC. It was shaped way back in 2002-2005 when we gained NIT berths twice, likely aided by our RPI and winning games on the road. In short, I don't think Hawk would be in a position to NEED a road win to boost our at large status late in the season. Dambrot crafted his schedule this way for a reason...there are positives and negatives to both ways. I also say NO because I recognize the differences between Dambrot and Hawkins...good and bad...controllable and uncontrollable.

Our fan base is fed up with going on the road for 9 games in November and December, with only 3 home games in 60+ days. We can't have it both ways. If we continue to schedule the way we do, we will never be in a position to have to lobby for a Bracketbuster road game against a quality opponent.

Reality is that Akron is in desperate need of a quality road win to boost their RPI to get in a discussion for an at large bid. Winning out in the MAC isn't going to cut it.

If Hawkins and/or WMU were in this position and chose not to lobby for the road game, I'd be sorely disappointed. Unfortunately, we haven't been in this position...not we will ever due to the BracketBuster games dissolving after this year.

(02-04-2013 11:37 AM)EA3 Wrote:  Reality is that Akron is in desperate need of a quality road win to boost their RPI to get in a discussion for an at large bid. Winning out in the MAC isn't going to cut it.

Exactly.

WMU is not going to draw a ranked mid-major like a Belmont, Creighton, or Wichita State. Akron likely will. I might end up eating crow at 6:30 p.m. but I doubt it.

WMU is closer to the territory of drawing an Evansville, Wright State, Indiana State, Bradley, etc... none of which serves any purpose to take that game on the road (win or lose).

(02-04-2013 11:43 AM)BrianPersky Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 11:37 AM)EA3 Wrote:  Reality is that Akron is in desperate need of a quality road win to boost their RPI to get in a discussion for an at large bid. Winning out in the MAC isn't going to cut it.

Exactly.

WMU is not going to draw a ranked mid-major like a Belmont, Creighton, or Wichita State. Akron likely will. I might end up eating crow at 6:30 p.m. but I doubt it.

WMU is closer to the territory of drawing an Evansville, Wright State, Indiana State, Bradley, etc... none of which serves any purpose to take that game on the road (win or lose).

Still a hypothetical question....

IF WMU was in Akron's shoes...would Hawkins lobby for a road game in BracketBusters?

Tough to know, because I can't imagine WMU ever being in a situation where they'd have TOO MANY home games in the early OOC schedule.

(02-04-2013 11:50 AM)EA3 Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 11:43 AM)BrianPersky Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 11:37 AM)EA3 Wrote:  Reality is that Akron is in desperate need of a quality road win to boost their RPI to get in a discussion for an at large bid. Winning out in the MAC isn't going to cut it.

Exactly.

WMU is not going to draw a ranked mid-major like a Belmont, Creighton, or Wichita State. Akron likely will. I might end up eating crow at 6:30 p.m. but I doubt it.

WMU is closer to the territory of drawing an Evansville, Wright State, Indiana State, Bradley, etc... none of which serves any purpose to take that game on the road (win or lose).

Still a hypothetical question....

IF WMU was in Akron's shoes...would Hawkins lobby for a road game in BracketBusters?

IF we were in Akron's shoes, I'd be all for lobbying to play the best team possible- regardless of the location. But we're not. So I don't see why we should this year.

Take Creighton's schedule. ALL home games in the non conference portion, except a game at Nebraska, and another one at California. Two neutral site games in a Vegas tournament. That's 8 home games if you are counting.

The difference between Creighton and Akron (besides strength of conference)...Creighton took care of business and won their games. They lost 1 non conference game, at home against Boise St.

Again, home games are great...but in regards to RPI, you HAVE to take care of business. Akron didn't (somewhat their own fault due to the clerical error)...and now they want a mulligan.

I have enjoyed this exchange by stirring the pot some. I wanted to shake the tree and find out where WMU's fans are coming from.

At the root of my hypothetical question was the real question would WMU take the necessary steps to move up to another level and by that way would "fans" support it?

I have adovocated for years that if you want respect you need to go out and play those that others respect. You seek out and play better competition. We go to their door knocking because they have something we want.

So how does WMU get to that place. I am sure their are several routes but I favor the following considering we are a mid-major in a conference that isnt well respected and rightfully so.

1. Play $ money games on the road and invest that $ into BB infrastructure. Locker room, Practice facility, weight room, charters.

2. Playing on a bigger stage and with finer amenities to offer recruits your talent pool will grow deeper and then wider. You now are staged to start winning these contests and people will take notice. The people that matter. The ones that conspire to organize the post season tournaments.

3. You continue to play these games keeping the $ machine going but now start requesting the return date with playing at their place the 2nd game so they can't or are less likely to back out.

4. With increased talent you start winning these games more frequently. The BCS types will start to bail but their are others out their that are looking to fill their schedule. They can't afford to pay NIU to come in and dampen their RPI so they look for a WMU.

5. At this juncture you should have no problem pulling in other quality mid-majors with significant recognition and gravitas. They too can't afford to fill their schedule with KU or UK and get pounded nor do they want to water down their RPI with IUPUI2?.

6. Stability. So you lose a HC every now and then. Some like Shaka and others know as Greg McDermott learned that BCS doesnt mean longevity. At some point WMU will be able to pay someone to stick around a little longer. I know we have other sports to contend with but hey, that's who WMU is.

It's not simple or easy but unless you take the necessary steps it will never be accomplished. In the end there will be more home games but which is more important, the # of home games or post season dancing? A program like WMU isnt going to be able to pick and chose incorrectly and win.

Nothing wrong with the scenario, gbl, I like it as a theory.

If that sequence could work out in that way it would be pretty sweet for the team, over a decade or so.

Oakland is currently doing what you subscribe. #3 non-conference SOS. Play BCS teams anywhere. They've played UM, MSU, Oregon at the Palace as "home games". They've also gotten Tennessee and Missouri at home. Plus Ohio, EMU, Duquesne, WMU, Wisc-GB, Wisc-Mil Valpo-types as home games. Valpo was the only home game worth anything this year.

(02-04-2013 06:31 PM)gobaseline Wrote:  I have enjoyed this exchange by stirring the pot some. I wanted to shake the tree and find out where WMU's fans are coming from.

At the root of my hypothetical question was the real question would WMU take the necessary steps to move up to another level and by that way would "fans" support it?

I have adovocated for years that if you want respect you need to go out and play those that others respect. You seek out and play better competition. We go to their door knocking because they have something we want.

So how does WMU get to that place. I am sure their are several routes but I favor the following considering we are a mid-major in a conference that isnt well respected and rightfully so.

1. Play $ money games on the road and invest that $ into BB infrastructure. Locker room, Practice facility, weight room, charters.

2. Playing on a bigger stage and with finer amenities to offer recruits your talent pool will grow deeper and then wider. You now are staged to start winning these contests and people will take notice. The people that matter. The ones that conspire to organize the post season tournaments.

3. You continue to play these games keeping the $ machine going but now start requesting the return date with playing at their place the 2nd game so they can't or are less likely to back out.

4. With increased talent you start winning these games more frequently. The BCS types will start to bail but their are others out their that are looking to fill their schedule. They can't afford to pay NIU to come in and dampen their RPI so they look for a WMU.

5. At this juncture you should have no problem pulling in other quality mid-majors with significant recognition and gravitas. They too can't afford to fill their schedule with KU or UK and get pounded nor do they want to water down their RPI with IUPUI2?.

6. Stability. So you lose a HC every now and then. Some like Shaka and others know as Greg McDermott learned that BCS doesnt mean longevity. At some point WMU will be able to pay someone to stick around a little longer. I know we have other sports to contend with but hey, that's who WMU is.

It's not simple or easy but unless you take the necessary steps it will never be accomplished. In the end there will be more home games but which is more important, the # of home games or post season dancing? A program like WMU isnt going to be able to pick and chose incorrectly and win.

Fantastic post and I couldn't agree more, particularly with #1. There's nothing wrong with playing three or four big money games every year and investing that money back into the program. A few simple upgrades to UA would make it one of the premier venues in the conference in my opinion. A new scoreboard with LED screens would be fantastic. A refurbished and upgraded weight room would do a lot as well. Making the entire lower bowl chair-back seating would be a nice upgrade too IMHO. Playing those money games and reinvesting in the program is something that can pay big dividends.

This obviously isn't something that happens overnight. That could take a decade, but the ends result could be the premier team in the MAC year in and year out. That's worth investing in, or at least taking a chance on in my opinion.

Does that mean we need to play a murderer's row schedule every year? Of course not. You can't play every game against Duke, Illinois, NC State, Michigan, etc. and think that's something that will be good for the team. Spacing those games out and sprinkling in mid-majors would make for a quality balanced schedule.

The wild card in all of this is how much money hockey or other sports take that comes from basketball. Not knowing makes the amount that could be invested directly back into basketball without going to other sports changes the potential impact of playing those money games. If the money isn't going to the basketball program and helping to make it more competitive, what's the point? You have to play a schedule that impacts the program and makes it better. If the way the budget is set up doesn't allow for that to happen, it would negate a lot of the potential benefits of playing those money games. And again, I don't know that basketball money goes to other programs so that's just speculation on my part. If somebody does know and has those numbers, I'd be interested to see them- I don't remember seeing anything about that in DD's budget stories, but I may have missed them.

I believe basketball and hockey are the two sports we need to be focused on because there's better chance for national relevance in those sports. I'm all for anything that increases the exposure and prominence of the basketball program, but you have to be smart and make the right series of choices and investments. Makes for an interesting discussion at the very least.

(02-04-2013 06:31 PM)gobaseline Wrote:  I have enjoyed this exchange by stirring the pot some. I wanted to shake the tree and find out where WMU's fans are coming from.

At the root of my hypothetical question was the real question would WMU take the necessary steps to move up to another level and by that way would "fans" support it?

I have adovocated for years that if you want respect you need to go out and play those that others respect. You seek out and play better competition. We go to their door knocking because they have something we want.

So how does WMU get to that place. I am sure their are several routes but I favor the following considering we are a mid-major in a conference that isnt well respected and rightfully so.

1. Play $ money games on the road and invest that $ into BB infrastructure. Locker room, Practice facility, weight room, charters.

2. Playing on a bigger stage and with finer amenities to offer recruits your talent pool will grow deeper and then wider. You now are staged to start winning these contests and people will take notice. The people that matter. The ones that conspire to organize the post season tournaments.

3. You continue to play these games keeping the $ machine going but now start requesting the return date with playing at their place the 2nd game so they can't or are less likely to back out.

4. With increased talent you start winning these games more frequently. The BCS types will start to bail but their are others out their that are looking to fill their schedule. They can't afford to pay NIU to come in and dampen their RPI so they look for a WMU.

5. At this juncture you should have no problem pulling in other quality mid-majors with significant recognition and gravitas. They too can't afford to fill their schedule with KU or UK and get pounded nor do they want to water down their RPI with IUPUI2?.

6. Stability. So you lose a HC every now and then. Some like Shaka and others know as Greg McDermott learned that BCS doesnt mean longevity. At some point WMU will be able to pay someone to stick around a little longer. I know we have other sports to contend with but hey, that's who WMU is.

It's not simple or easy but unless you take the necessary steps it will never be accomplished. In the end there will be more home games but which is more important, the # of home games or post season dancing? A program like WMU isnt going to be able to pick and chose incorrectly and win.

Sounds like a plan, which begs the question, "you ain't from these parts er ya?"