(02-02-2013 04:36 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 04:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The question that I have is why if they go to the C7 conference wouldn't Smart be a Ram for life? I haven't been seeing BE coaches getting poached for other conferences much. Why would he be any different?

SEcond. I think a Big East job is one you don't leave unless it's absolute royalty calling. Indiana, Duke, Carolina, UCLA, KAnsas, Kentucky. Or the NBA maybe. Going forward, if the league is succeeding, I don't think you see coaches going from good Big East teams to Michigan or NC STate or Arizona.

If Providence's new coach succeeds, why does he leave? Where does he go? Maybe UConn, they have more history. If Purrell can bring Depaul back, does it make any sense for him to jump to Illinois? If Oregon and Phil Knight call, maybe.

Do you leave a job where you are the biggest star of the athletic program for one where you're a distant No. 2 to the football coach?

Purnell is an older guy who was brought in to rebuild that team. He prob stays if he does that, but a young coach will always look to leave. See if he can cut it at the big name school and be a legend.

(02-02-2013 05:04 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Purnell is an older guy who was brought in to rebuild that team. He prob stays if he does that, but a young coach will always look to leave. See if he can cut it at the big name school and be a legend.

Be a legend where, though? Set aside the top ten or so jobs.

Would it make sense for Buzz Williams to go to Texas if that job opens up? It's not open and shut, is it?

Maybe Brad Stevens goes to Indiana. But to Purdue? VAnderbilt? Georgia?

IF VCU is in the Big East, does it make any sense for Shaka Smart to take the Maryland job? NC State?

(02-02-2013 04:36 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 04:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The question that I have is why if they go to the C7 conference wouldn't Smart be a Ram for life? I haven't been seeing BE coaches getting poached for other conferences much. Why would he be any different?

SEcond. I think a Big East job is one you don't leave unless it's absolute royalty calling. Indiana, Duke, Carolina, UCLA, KAnsas, Kentucky. Or the NBA maybe. Going forward, if the league is succeeding, I don't think you see coaches going from good Big East teams to Michigan or NC STate or Arizona.

If Providence's new coach succeeds, why does he leave? Where does he go? Maybe UConn, they have more history. If Purrell can bring Depaul back, does it make any sense for him to jump to Illinois? If Oregon and Phil Knight call, maybe.

Do you leave a job where you are the biggest star of the athletic program for one where you're a distant No. 2 to the football coach?

Why wouldn't he? Because of the limitations of VCU. They currently play in a 7k arena. His contract is only for like 7 years at 1.3 million. Also you answered it on the sentence I put in bold. Shaka is young smart and hungry, why would he limit himself? He could go to other places with better exposure, after missing out on a few key recruits, he's gonna realize it's going to be easier to recruit those 5 star players if he was in those bigger schools.

Also, Purnell at DePaul has a 7 year contract at $14 million..so $2 million a year. John Groce is reportedly only making $1.25 million for 5 years. Why would he need to jump to Illinois? That's a demotion if you ask me.

(02-02-2013 05:15 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 04:36 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 04:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The question that I have is why if they go to the C7 conference wouldn't Smart be a Ram for life? I haven't been seeing BE coaches getting poached for other conferences much. Why would he be any different?

SEcond. I think a Big East job is one you don't leave unless it's absolute royalty calling. Indiana, Duke, Carolina, UCLA, KAnsas, Kentucky. Or the NBA maybe. Going forward, if the league is succeeding, I don't think you see coaches going from good Big East teams to Michigan or NC STate or Arizona.

If Providence's new coach succeeds, why does he leave? Where does he go? Maybe UConn, they have more history. If Purrell can bring Depaul back, does it make any sense for him to jump to Illinois? If Oregon and Phil Knight call, maybe.

Do you leave a job where you are the biggest star of the athletic program for one where you're a distant No. 2 to the football coach?

Why wouldn't he? Because of the limitations of VCU. They currently play in a 7k arena. His contract is only for like 7 years at 1.3 million.

With VCU getting Big East money, Shaka Smart gets a piece of that.

Quote:Also you answered it on the sentence I put in bold. Shaka is young smart and hungry, why would he limit himself? He could go to other places with better exposure, after missing out on a few key recruits, he's gonna realize it's going to be easier to recruit those 5 star players if he was in those bigger schools.

With the Big East tag and a Final Four banner, he's not missing out on many recruits unless it's to Calipari or Coach K etc. So unless it's UCLA or Kansas or Kentucky or UConn or Syracuse or Louisville on the phone, I don't see many reasons for Coach Smart to leave the Big East.

Quote:Also, Purnell at DePaul has a 7 year contract at $14 million..so $2 million a year. John Groce is reportedly only making $1.25 million for 5 years. Why would he need to jump to Illinois? That's a demotion if you ask me.

That's my point. With VCU in the Big East, NC State or Maryland or Tennessee or Wisconsin is basically a lateral move.

(02-02-2013 05:15 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 04:36 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 04:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The question that I have is why if they go to the C7 conference wouldn't Smart be a Ram for life? I haven't been seeing BE coaches getting poached for other conferences much. Why would he be any different?

SEcond. I think a Big East job is one you don't leave unless it's absolute royalty calling. Indiana, Duke, Carolina, UCLA, KAnsas, Kentucky. Or the NBA maybe. Going forward, if the league is succeeding, I don't think you see coaches going from good Big East teams to Michigan or NC STate or Arizona.

If Providence's new coach succeeds, why does he leave? Where does he go? Maybe UConn, they have more history. If Purrell can bring Depaul back, does it make any sense for him to jump to Illinois? If Oregon and Phil Knight call, maybe.

Do you leave a job where you are the biggest star of the athletic program for one where you're a distant No. 2 to the football coach?

Why wouldn't he? Because of the limitations of VCU. They currently play in a 7k arena. His contract is only for like 7 years at 1.3 million. Also you answered it on the sentence I put in bold. Shaka is young smart and hungry, why would he limit himself? He could go to other places with better exposure, after missing out on a few key recruits, he's gonna realize it's going to be easier to recruit those 5 star players if he was in those bigger schools.

Also, Purnell at DePaul has a 7 year contract at $14 million..so $2 million a year. John Groce is reportedly only making $1.25 million for 5 years. Why would he need to jump to Illinois? That's a demotion if you ask me.

You sound like the Illinois/Maryland/NC St. Fans that came to the VCUboard claiming Shaka was "as good as gone" citing the money, and Shaka being hungry for a higher paying job. No one knows what he will do. Here's what we do know: he's rejectd offers for more money at other schools. He directly pushed for A10 membership because he wants to be at a school focused on basketball. He recently bought a home in "the Fan" area of Richmond (right next to VCU). He just had a daughter, and wants to establish a family. His own coach left his school when he was a freshman, and had a profound effect on him, which may be a reason for him staying (he has a great relationship with players: one was orphaned as a teenager, and was a ward of the state. Shaka tells him he loves him everyday and has become a father figure).

What does that mean for his future? Who knows, we can only speculate.

I live in McLean (16+ years) and VCU definitely gets more play than William and Mary, probably slightly below Mason (which will change, if we continue our success).

I'm glad some GU posters were not impressed by the 2011 team, losing can cause bitterness.

(02-01-2013 10:31 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 08:48 PM)muskienick Wrote:  Ask the leftover members of the Great Midwest how much they liked the idea of having Dayton in the new Conference they created, CUSA. If you think Fordham and DePaul are the deadweights of their current conferences, then you'll understand why UD didn't make the cut for membership in CUSA!

The fact that UD can schedule in such a way as to avoid losing non-conference records and put over 12,000 fans in the stands for each home game simply cannot be the justification for membership in a Conference with the lofty goals and objectives as the one that will contain the C7. Members of that Conference must be chosen on the basis of what they can be expected to contribute to the league in new eyes on the TV screen, probable on-court success based on relatively recent history, and reasonable expectations for earning NCAA Tourney units.

On those three criteria, VCU wins out over Dayton in a landslide.

Yeah, but you're forgetting that UD isn't freaking terrible now like they were in 1994.

What happens when you dump all the "bad teams" from the league and have a league of nothing but basketball powers? Someone goes from C-USA DePaul (who made the dance half the time) to Big East DePaul (cellar dweller).

If you put UNC, Duke, Kansas, Michigan St, Ohio St, Kentucky, Syracuse, Louisville, UConn and Gonzaga in a conference together, someone's going 5-13 in conference play.

Dayton is a team that wins OOC games, but let's YOU go to the tournament. They're not Fordham, who's 7-6 OOC in a GOOD YEAR. Dayton's 7-6 OOC in a BAD YEAR. Dayton is like 10-4 on average OOC, over nearly 20 years. They win OOC games, lose conference games, and help their conference.

It's humorous to me that the X fans are all in favor of leaving UD behind. You've won 28 straight games at home over UD and what, 19 of the 28 at their place in that span? Why on earth would you be willing to give up 1-3 Top 100 RPI wins for a team that MIGHT ACTUALLY BEAT YOU?

If Dayton gets left out, and they finish 12-4 instead of 9-7 since they don't have to play Xavier and Temple three times, and make the NCAA Tournament, and a 9-9 C7 Xavier team doesn't make the dance because they lost to VCU, I am going to laugh hysterically. Daily. Until the next Selection Sunday.

Xavier would be EFFING CRAZY to want VCU in the league over a team they OWN.

I guess that is the difference between XU fans and you. We moved from the MCC to the A-10 to get BETTER COMPETITION. If we are invited to join the C7 and four other new members to form a Conference, we'd prefer those four other members to be the best possible choices on a competitive and "attractiveness" basis. ("Attractiveness" refers to strength of program + Metro area + TV appeal --- i.e. the most additional viewship). Despite our long record of success in defeating UD at home, the Flyers are a very good program. In my opinion, they simply are not quite as good as VCU. So if the choice is between UD and VCU, I want the Rams. (But if UD is the C7's choice over VCR, so be it. The end result is that XU is still in a much improved Conference.)

It's as simple as that!

Furthermore, I won't assume that Xavier will go 9-9 consistently in a new league with the C7. Since we joined the A-10 we have had not one losing season in-conference (although we did go 8-8 in 1995-1996, our first year in the League). Instead, some people other than Xavier fans have actually dubbed the Musketeers as the "Flagship of the A-10," especially since JC left Temple as coach. We have flourished in the A-10 by using its elevated status as a top basketball conference to build our program to greater heights by winning championships, getting to the NCAA Tourney on a very regular basis, and even getting into the Elite Eight fairly regularly in recent years. Should we be fortunate enough to be in a new Conference with the C7, I would guess that Xavier would continue that upward swing and work hard to finally break into the Final Four.

(02-02-2013 05:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 05:04 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Purnell is an older guy who was brought in to rebuild that team. He prob stays if he does that, but a young coach will always look to leave. See if he can cut it at the big name school and be a legend.

Be a legend where, though? Set aside the top ten or so jobs.

Would it make sense for Buzz Williams to go to Texas if that job opens up? It's not open and shut, is it?

Maybe Brad Stevens goes to Indiana. But to Purdue? VAnderbilt? Georgia?

IF VCU is in the Big East, does it make any sense for Shaka Smart to take the Maryland job? NC State?

If he is so awesome and you guys expect him to keep winning why wouldn't a top ten job look at him? Coach K in 6 or so years when he retires? UConn? UofL when Pitino retires?

(02-02-2013 05:56 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 05:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 05:04 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Purnell is an older guy who was brought in to rebuild that team. He prob stays if he does that, but a young coach will always look to leave. See if he can cut it at the big name school and be a legend.

Be a legend where, though? Set aside the top ten or so jobs.

Would it make sense for Buzz Williams to go to Texas if that job opens up? It's not open and shut, is it?

Maybe Brad Stevens goes to Indiana. But to Purdue? VAnderbilt? Georgia?

IF VCU is in the Big East, does it make any sense for Shaka Smart to take the Maryland job? NC State?

If he is so awesome and you guys expect him to keep winning why wouldn't a top ten job look at him? Coach K in 6 or so years when he retires? UConn? UofL when Pitino retires?

If they want him, they get him. What's your point? Aside from JTIII, I don't think there's a coach in the Big East who turns down the Duke job, or Louisville or Kentucky or Kansas if the opportunity is there.

But there aren't many of those jobs. They don't come open that often. The point is that, with VCU in the CAA or A-10, if Arkansas calls, Shaka Smart's agent has a long conversation with him. With VCU in the Big East, the agent gets that call, he maybe calls VCU's AD and president about a contract extension and a raise, but he's not moving.

i cant speak about Smart directly but if a coach in general perceives another program as a better opportunity then he would leave. Doesnt have to be one of the "royality" programs either.
Many of these guys have tremendous egos. Im not in Smarts head (or sometimes even smart in the head) but he may like the challenge/ego boost of moving to a new program that he can '"develop" or turn into a top perfromer. He may not, and im just using him as a n example since he was brought up. You can insert any name for his.
Others may prefer to remain at a program for their entire career and enjoy the success and POWER that could bring. Only Shaka could answer which type he may be

(02-02-2013 08:18 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i cant speak about Smart directly but if a coach in general perceives another program as a better opportunity then he would leave. Doesnt have to be one of the "royality" programs either.
Many of these guys have tremendous egos. Im not in Smarts head (or sometimes even smart in the head) but he may like the challenge/ego boost of moving to a new program that he can '"develop" or turn into a top perfromer. He may not, and im just using him as a n example since he was brought up. You can insert any name for his.
Others may prefer to remain at a program for their entire career and enjoy the success and POWER that could bring. Only Shaka could answer which type he may be

I think the point becomes, if VCU goes to the C7, and the C7 is one of the top 3-4 conferences- the chances of Smart leaving for anywhere decreases immensely. There wouldn't be many programs where it'd be an upgrade in that situation. Esp. if they are able to upgrade the facilities(I've been in the Siegel Center coaching youth hoops, not sure how much they could potentially upgrade that).

(02-02-2013 05:24 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  That's my point. With VCU in the Big East, NC State or Maryland or Tennessee or Wisconsin is basically a lateral move.

I doubt the Big East is going to take VCU to offset NAVY.

Perhaps the C7 leftovers will take VCU... but, in that case, I could see Smart leaving for one of those schools you list.

I'm not good at that editing/cropping stuff to make a reply so I'll just do it like this.

@Johnbragg- who says VCU will get Big East money? Heck even the C-7 don't know if they will get to keep Big East money, we might actually end up negotiating a way to use that money just to leave early.

I don't see VCU as a "destination" job. I don't know if he will stay there the rest of his career but from my perspective-and I know you will disagree- this guy is driven, and is only looking to go as high as he can. Heck look at his history, he started out as an Asst coach at a Div II then to Akron, Dayton, Clemson, and finally a year in Florida under Billy D., until finally he got a HC gig at a mid-major. All I'm saying is this guy is not done and I hope he is not content at staying where he is at.

He's even losing out to recruits from other Mid-majors like St.Josephs, Florida International, and even to crosstown "rival" Richmond. I guess not everybody buys into the "I made it to the Final Four" pitch. These are 3 star recruits at that.

Also here is some fun facts. Shaka Smart is actually a Protege of Oliver Purnell-yup, DePaul's Oliver Purnell. He hired him as an Asst when he was at Dayton and when OP took the Clemson job, he brought Shaka with him.

Anyways, I just don't think VCU would be a wise decision in the long run just because they are 'Hot-right-now' under Shaka Smart-and there is not that shows me that he is a Ram4life. I would rather take in Richmond under the conditions that they re-appropriate their 2 Billion dollar endowment and invest in their basketball program.

@Gopher-Ramfan, I see that was your first post and first things first, Welcome to the Board even though it was targeted specifically at me...but it's OK I have a thick skin.

Although I enjoyed VCU's Final Four run 2 years ago, It was not enough to convince me they should be a top 5 candidate to join the C-7 for all the things stated above and what other posters like FranktheTank has stated. To me, it was very reminiscent of George Mason's Final Four run under Jim Larranaga-and where is Jim now? He took 'his talents down to South Beach.' Had this Realignment/Separation occurred a few years ago, George Mason would have been the Flavor of the Month.

the thing about VCU vs George Mason- VCU has done a whole lot more than GMU was 5 years ago...

2013 VCU- 5 NCAA spots last 10 years, 7 wins
2007 GMU- 3 NCAA spots last 10 years, 4 wins

VCU has followed up the final 4 spot with 1 completed very good year, and then this season they're looking good. 2012 they were regular season BETTER than 2011.
GMU followed up the final 4 spot with an 18-15 season. To me, there's no comparison at all. GMU wouldn't have even be remotely considered.

(02-02-2013 10:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  the thing about VCU vs George Mason- VCU has done a whole lot more than GMU was 5 years ago...

2013 VCU- 5 NCAA spots last 10 years, 7 wins
2007 GMU- 3 NCAA spots last 10 years, 4 wins

VCU has followed up the final 4 spot with 1 completed very good year, and then this season they're looking good. 2012 they were regular season BETTER than 2011.
GMU followed up the final 4 spot with an 18-15 season. To me, there's no comparison at all. GMU wouldn't have even be remotely considered.

Shaka Smart...no guarantee he sticks around even if VCU is with the C-7. Will VCU make a commitment to pay him or the new coach over 2 million a year, build a new arena that's at least 10k seats? The great thing about Private schools is the fact that they don't have to justify how their endowment is shuffled around. What if Richmond U came along and said hey Shaka, you like sticking around the Richmond VA area right? How about you come play over here for 3 million a year?

Jim Larranaga left because George Mason couldn't counter the offer Uni of Miami gave him. Look at what he's doing down there, I'm sure he isn't regretting his decision.

If you look at his contract- he gets 1,360,000 per year right now...

he's already gotten 32k more in bonuses(5k per a10 win, 2k for ODU win).

if they win 2 more games, he gets 5k per a10 win(all they have left), plus 20k for winning 20 games. That takes it up to 62k already.

just making the tourney he gets 56,250 bonus.

1st 3 wins in NCAA- 37,500
next 2- 56,250
last 2- 75k

If the finish like they did last year- in 2nd round, he'll be making like 1.5 million this year. And, he's got a 700k buyout clause that goes down only by 100k a year.

I'd think if they made the C7, they will redo his contract up to what other coaches in C7 are getting.

(02-02-2013 11:02 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If you look at his contract- he gets 1,360,000 per year right now...

he's already gotten 32k more in bonuses(5k per a10 win, 2k for ODU win).

if they win 2 more games, he gets 5k per a10 win(all they have left), plus 20k for winning 20 games. That takes it up to 62k already.

just making the tourney he gets 56,250 bonus.

1st 3 wins in NCAA- 37,500
next 2- 56,250
last 2- 75k

If the finish like they did last year- in 2nd round, he'll be making like 1.5 million this year. And, he's got a 700k buyout clause that goes down only by 100k a year.

I'd think if they made the C7, they will redo his contract up to what other coaches in C7 are getting.

You're assuming that if VCU does join the C-7 that their BOD would be willing to pony up more money just to keep him around. Plus they'd probably have to find/build a new arena that can seat at least 10k. The 1.5 million is just him...not factoring in his asst who probably also want a pay raise. The way I see it, VCU has already maxed out their budget just to keep him.

Here is a great article that breaks down the problem I have with VCU. Surprisingly enough, it's main focus is on VCU.

Some schools like VCU ante up so coaches don't leave for wealthier programs.

Public schools in Virginia cannot use funds they receive from tuition or the state for their athletics departments' costs. They generally raise athletics funds from ticket sales, booster donations, student fees and — in the case of major-conference schools Virginia and Virginia Tech— various media rights and corporate sponsorship deals. According to VCU's 2011-12 university budget plan, $732,900 for pay increases for Smart and his staff came from "changes in university fee-supported activities."

But VCU funnels money toward the athletics department in other ways. According to a document VCU filed with the NCAA in January, the department got $15.6 million of its $19.9 million in revenue from student fees in 2010-11. The document said the department had $21.4 million in expenses — a shortfall of about $1.5 million.

I think VCU is maxed out with regards to how much they can pay Shaka-I didn't even know he got 2k just for beating crosstown rival Richmond. If Richmonds President was smart, he would take the same approach as VCU's President.

Let's put this into perspective and compare salaries of coaches in the C-7.

JTIII- over 1.9 million a year + incentives
Oliver Purnell - 2 million a year + incentives
Buzz Williams - 1.8 million a year + incentives (a couple of years back he earned nearly 3 mill on a "one time" payment).
Jay Wright - est. 1.5 to 2million a year + incentives.
Steve Lavin - 2 million + incentives
Kevin Willard - around 1 million...after incentives (base salary $500k)
Ed Cooley - unsure, probably around the 1.2 mill range


He's already making more than SH and PC coaches, what if those two take the attitude of DePaul and say, enough of this crap, lets dump a lot of money back in our BBall program so we can go back to our glory days.

Well, they would be getting an extra 3 million a year in TV revenue. That right there eliminates the shortfall

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of the other potential schools to see where they fall as well....

And, looking at your list- it would seem if they joined the C7, it'd take maybe an extra 500k out of that 3 million to get him in the general range.

(02-03-2013 12:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Well, they would be getting an extra 3 million a year in TV revenue. That right there eliminates the shortfall

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of the other potential schools to see where they fall as well....

And, looking at your list- it would seem if they joined the C7, it'd take maybe an extra 500k out of that 3 million to get him in the general range.

I figured they would break even-not including a new Arena. My main concern goes back to the fact that I see him as a guy looking for upward mobility, i.e. eventually ending up in a Blue Blood school-or a school willing to pony up at least over 2.5 million a year (there's a lot of them out there). If that happens will VCU be able to justify in signing a 1.5 million dollar coach-is VCU attractive enough for a 1.5 million dollar coach or will VCU gamble again on an unknown commodity and hope they hit gold on the first try. If Shaka Blows up even more in the C-7, expect more AD's to come knocking at his door.

I also got curious as far as the other top candidates so here is what I found in my brief search.

Brad Stevens (Butler)- known 12 year contract. Unsure of how much per year but BU President has stated its over 1 million plus incentives of course.
Chris Mack (Xavier)- unsure, salary probably around 800k to 1 million plus incentives
Greg McDermott (Creighton) a little over 1 million plus incentives
Archie Miller (Dayton) - could not find
Jeff Crews (SLU) - unsure, but Rick Majerus was making over 1 million plus incentives before he passed away. I doubt JC is up there.
Gregg Marshall (WSU) - Base Salary $900k a year plus incentives.

Brad Stevens is the only I can see making a career at where he's at. Basketball crazy state and a University that won't hesitate to match any offer to keep their beloved coach, although he did put a "buyout clause" of high six-low seven figures, which is considerably low. He's smart enough to put that in there just in case he changes his mind or something nice comes along. I wonder what Shaka put for his buyout clause.

Some of the posters on here could probably shed some light on how much their coaches make.

I know Smart's buyout right now is 700k, it goes down by 100k each year(was looking at that this evening)...

Illinois was willing to put up 2.6 million per year- and he turned them down for 1.3 plus incentives.

I think there is maybe something with these new coaches- Stevens, Smart, Chris Peterson in football, Few with Gonzaga- that get a great situation and just stay there forever, even though they have good chances other places.... it does seem like things have changed to some degree...

Supposedly Shaka turned down Illinois because he did not want to deal with the Chicago recruiting scene (it's very shady). He also might not have wanted to mess around against his former mentor Oliver Purnell as he tries to rebuild DePaul, that is, target the same recruits in the same background. They both go after the same type of players. Shaka tweeked Purnells and Billy Donovan system and created his version called "Havoc." I'm just speculating though.

Smart's buyout is really small as well. Heck, UofI had to pay Bruce Weber nearly 4 million for his buyout.