(01-30-2013 04:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the perception debate is a key one quite frankly. I think if VCU isn't included, and some of the weaker adds fall apart a la DePaul, that's going to be a killer.

I'm sorry, but the c7 has a VERY thin margin for error. You might not like to hear it, but that is the case. If years 1-3 go poorly, there's not going to be a future to worry about. Especially if there isn't much movement going forward in fb, and the fb conference is as strong, or God forbid stronger than the C7 conference.

A Fox contract for several years means the C7 has a very large margin for "error". The C7, with expansion, will have done major damage to two lower conferences that have major aspirations to go higher: A10 and MVC. That in itself is reason to go to 12.

The conference that will be the C7's competition will be the football Big East. And how exactly will that conference do in basketball with ECU, Tulane, Houston, SMU, UCF, and Tulsa? Their stars are limited to UConn, UC, Memphis, and Temple. If there is a conference that fits best for VCU and Wichita State, it is the football side.

The B!G expansion actually hurts them with Rutgers. How exactly will Maryland gain in basketball having to recruit to the B1G? The ACC gained the kingpin status with the Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville adds.

(01-30-2013 04:53 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 04:07 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the perception debate is a key one quite frankly. I think if VCU isn't included, and some of the weaker adds fall apart a la DePaul, that's going to be a killer.

I'm sorry, but the c7 has a VERY thin margin for error. You might not like to hear it, but that is the case. If years 1-3 go poorly, there's not going to be a future to worry about. Especially if there isn't much movement going forward in fb, and the fb conference is as strong, or God forbid stronger than the C7 conference.

A Fox contract for several years means the C7 has a very large margin for "error". The C7, with expansion, will have done major damage to two lower conferences that have major aspirations to go higher: A10 and MVC. That in itself is reason to go to 12.

The conference that will be the C7's competition will be the football Big East.

No, our competition is the Big Ten, SEC, and Big 12, plus Temple's conference. Being better than Temple's conference doesn't get you on the back page of the New York papers. We'd like to imagine competing with the ACC, but that's not likely for a while.

(01-30-2013 02:32 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I really believe that there is a choice to be made as to who the target audience for the league is--basketball fans, or Catholic college alumni. If it's a group of big-city Catholic colleges who happen to have pretty good basketball teams, I don't think that's a long-term formula for big-time relevance.

The schools will all be fine, but the sooner or later the basketball programs won't be.

And VCU just changes everything for you? Jeeez...

(01-30-2013 02:48 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 10:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't think Richmond has any shot. It would make for an extremely delicate situation- if VCU continues to produce in the A10(or in the NBE if they get them to complement Navy)- and Richmond struggles, it wouldn't look good at all- would make the C7 seem way to focused on private schools and not focused enough on actual sports.

This fact to me is the problem. You have to expect the A-10 will not sit still and will add other programs fromt he CAA and/or MVC to maintain parity. The more you leave them top programs because they are public the more you risk having the private and the public league with equal level of parity.

So now VCU is a TOP program? How does VCU get to be everything for so many posters here?

Seriously, what other programs are there that you are afraid of another league challenging the C-7? Am i really supposed to believe that this imaginary A-10 with VCU, Wichita St, St. Joe's, GW and Duquesne is even going to compare?


FACT: Wichita St and VCU will not be the downfall for the C-7+
FACT: There simply aren't enough of these imaginary solid basketball public schools that you are referring to to rival whatever the C-7+ becomes.

IT's not that the A-10 will compete with us. It's that with Saint Louis or Dayton instead of VCU, we're a little farther from competing on a level with the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12.

(01-30-2013 03:21 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 03:08 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 02:32 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I really believe that there is a choice to be made as to who the target audience for the league is--basketball fans, or Catholic college alumni. If it's a group of big-city Catholic colleges who happen to have pretty good basketball teams, I don't think that's a long-term formula for big-time relevance.

The schools will all be fine, but the sooner or later the basketball programs won't be.

Again, why would the C7 passing on a single school (in this case VCU) indicate that the C7 isn't concerned about reaching a larger basketball
fan audience?

"Interested in" vs "Succeeding at."

We're going to be beating our chests about being THE basketball conference.

I also find it highly likely that VCU will be making noise in the tournament again.

So if we leave out VCU, we're basically betting that they're a flash in the pan. Otherwise it gets very hard to say we're THE basketball conference--because how come that basketball school over there with a bunch of tournament appearances and a recent Final Four isn't in your league? Mumble mumble institutional fit?

Quote:Is it simply that you want the C7 to prove to you that they're not just looking at private schools, so adding VCU would show that? I somewhat understand that at the fan level, but it's doubtful that conferences think that way.

Let's put it this way. Imagine a non-Catholic northeastern basketball fan. MAybe Jewish, maybe AME Zionist, doesn't matter. What's the script to convince him that he should watch Big East basketball, if we've left out a pretty good basketball school because they're not private/Catholic/religious?

We start with "We got the best basketball schools--no football schools, no--and Big East basketball is going to rock the house again."

He says "What about VCU?" and we say what, exactly?

No, you've come to that conclusion. The rest of us don't think a CAA world-beater is a must-have.

(01-30-2013 05:23 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  IT's not that the A-10 will compete with us. It's that with Saint Louis or Dayton instead of VCU, we're a little farther from competing on a level with the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12.

You make quite a few assumptions about the glory VCU will bring.

I don't think having one or two non-sectarian schools will make a bit of difference to the casual fan. On court profiles/success and geographic proximity are likely greater factors than whether the conference has "x" number of private or religious schools.

And yes this means Dayton and SLU's on court success gives me pause in apprehension of a slow early conference life but I agree with Frank that it's not going to be MidMajor or "weighed down" no matter the teams added.

I do think when it's done that it will be VCU left out, but I don't think the A10 would ever be a "threat" since many of the remaining schools are never going to be the #1 or even #2 school in their market.

(01-30-2013 05:39 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:23 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  IT's not that the A-10 will compete with us. It's that with Saint Louis or Dayton instead of VCU, we're a little farther from competing on a level with the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12.

You make quite a few assumptions about the glory VCU will bring.

I do. Especially with a Big East boost. I figure that with VCU, we have Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, Butler, Xavier and VCU, all with proven ability to make a tournament run, Creighton who is usually at least able to get to the tournament, which is the first step to making a run. St John's is on the road back. With Saint Louis instead of VCU--hmm. Actually Fox will probably push pretty hard for SLU. I guess I feel better if I think about it as VCU vs Dayton.

But I still say if we leave out VCU, and they keep winning tournament games, we look pretty stupid.

(01-30-2013 06:00 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:39 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:23 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  IT's not that the A-10 will compete with us. It's that with Saint Louis or Dayton instead of VCU, we're a little farther from competing on a level with the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12.

You make quite a few assumptions about the glory VCU will bring.

I do. Especially with a Big East boost. I figure that with VCU, we have Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, Butler, Xavier and VCU, all with proven ability to make a tournament run, Creighton who is usually at least able to get to the tournament, which is the first step to making a run. St John's is on the road back. With Saint Louis instead of VCU--hmm. Actually Fox will probably push pretty hard for SLU. I guess I feel better if I think about it as VCU vs Dayton.

But I still say if we leave out VCU, and they keep winning tournament games, we look pretty stupid.

No matter what, there will be a program not included in the C7+ that will make a substantial run over a period of time to make us consider them. I don't think there's a way to avoid that. If it's not VCU, it's Detroit next. Or Wichita St. Or Duquesne. Or Boston U. Or Davidson.

Who knows. But the C7+ won't be killing off the successful mid-major anytime soon. There will inevitably be that school doing great that we wish we had and that school we currently have that isn't doing well that we'll want to drop.

(01-30-2013 07:12 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 06:00 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:39 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 05:23 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  IT's not that the A-10 will compete with us. It's that with Saint Louis or Dayton instead of VCU, we're a little farther from competing on a level with the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12.

You make quite a few assumptions about the glory VCU will bring.

I do. Especially with a Big East boost. I figure that with VCU, we have Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, Butler, Xavier and VCU, all with proven ability to make a tournament run, Creighton who is usually at least able to get to the tournament, which is the first step to making a run. St John's is on the road back. With Saint Louis instead of VCU--hmm. Actually Fox will probably push pretty hard for SLU. I guess I feel better if I think about it as VCU vs Dayton.

But I still say if we leave out VCU, and they keep winning tournament games, we look pretty stupid.

No matter what, there will be a program not included in the C7+ that will make a substantial run over a period of time to make us consider them. I don't think there's a way to avoid that. If it's not VCU, it's Detroit next. Or Wichita St. Or Duquesne. Or Boston U. Or Davidson.

Who knows. But the C7+ won't be killing off the successful mid-major anytime soon. There will inevitably be that school doing great that we wish we had and that school we currently have that isn't doing well that we'll want to drop.

Some people seem to dwell on the idea of what if the schools not named vcu don't develop and become more successful. How can we be certain that vcu will have continued success? What if they fail and bring the c7 image down? What if st Louis or Dayton or school y excels? There are no garauntees. the expansion decision needs to be made on a number of issues not just current success in basketball. Maybe vcu is that fit maybe not. Either way the c7 + 5 will live on

It's not by any stretch of the imagination a guarantee the C7 will live on at the level that we expect them to do so. You're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If this goes bad, we will be at best the #7-8 conference, and a real afterthought in general. You can dream and think otherwise, but it's just not the case at all. It won't take much going wrong to have that happen, and if it does happening, it's going to be a near impossible task to get it back.

I just think it's crazy to NOT take into account recent performance. Dayton has shown nothing to show they can perform at a high level . 24-28 the last 3 years against schools that finished with a winning record. VCU same period is 33-20. Plus the fact that Dayton is so close to Xavier makes little sense to duplicate that area. So we're supposed to think with pixie dust Dayton is going to be good, while VCU with the same pixie dust will fall apart. That's just insanity.

(01-30-2013 09:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I just think it's crazy to NOT take into account recent performance. Dayton has shown nothing to show they can perform at a high level . 24-28 the last 3 years against schools that finished with a winning record. VCU same period is 33-20. Plus the fact that Dayton is so close to Xavier makes little sense to duplicate that area. So we're supposed to think with pixie dust Dayton is going to be good, while VCU with the same pixie dust will fall apart. That's just insanity.

When USF was added to the Big East, both its basketball and football programs were all about potential, not about performance. Cincinnati football was all about potential, and it was elevated. To a lesser extent, same with Louisville football. WVU basketball was totally elevated when the Big East allowed it to be a basketball school. Rutgers, a former A10 basketball school that never did anything there, is one of the few basketball programs added that didn't get elevated to another level.

Richmond and Dayton have far better basketball programs than Rutgets ever did in the A10. How could they not improve with more TV and recruiting exposure? It comes down to commitment and money. DePaul and Seton Hall seem to have neither, while all of the A10 schools under discussion do.

If it wasn't for NCAA rules that require seven schools together for 8 years, DePaul and Seton Hall wouldn't be along for the C7 drive. If there are scapegoats in progress, those two as well as Providence will be the problem children, not anyone moving up from the A10.

(01-30-2013 09:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  It's not by any stretch of the imagination a guarantee the C7 will live on at the level that we expect them to do so. You're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If this goes bad, we will be at best the #7-8 conference, and a real afterthought in general. You can dream and think otherwise, but it's just not the case at all. It won't take much going wrong to have that happen, and if it does happening, it's going to be a near impossible task to get it back.

I just think it's crazy to NOT take into account recent performance. Dayton has shown nothing to show they can perform at a high level . 24-28 the last 3 years against schools that finished with a winning record. VCU same period is 33-20. Plus the fact that Dayton is so close to Xavier makes little sense to duplicate that area. So we're supposed to think with pixie dust Dayton is going to be good, while VCU with the same pixie dust will fall apart. That's just insanity.

Agreed the c* may not be as successful as ita members were in the old big east. However you are going yourself if you think without vcu the c7 is doomed for failure. They very well .at be a great add but they may not be. They LST to LaSalle and Richmond and only beat URI by 6 tonight. Is that a fluke or is it a sign of things to come? None of us can say for sure.
If vcu gets in that would be fine with me. If they dont that would also be fine with me.same with Dayton. You talk about pixie dust, to believe that the fairy tale season vcu had will last forever is foolhardy. Some people trash talk st johns. Who would have believed that would ever happen back in their prime? The c7 need to think long term. As does any conference.Rutgers certainly didn't get a b1g invite due to its on field and court success. If the b10 was Ted to go with recent success why wasn't Boise or wvu or even cincy invited?

(01-30-2013 10:41 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Richmond and Dayton have far better basketball programs than Rutgets ever did in the A10. How could they not improve with more TV and recruiting exposure? It comes down to commitment and money. DePaul and Seton Hall seem to have neither, while all of the A10 schools do.

I still think it is foolish to think think TV money and recruiting exposure will help Dayton and Saint Louis considering the heightened level of competition. At best, they will only suck for awhile before getting the legs under them, but that sucking period is almost inevitable (teams don't get better in an instant).

Furthermore, if money was the only problem holding them back Dayton and Saint Louis would dominate the A-10 more than they do now. They are going to be going from a situation where they are among the richest schools to being fairly poor, and they didn't really light the world on fire with the money in the A-10.

I'll also reiterate that you only get one chance for a first impression. If the Catholic 7 start off strong (as a top 3-4 conference), they will build a foundation for the rest of the conference's existence even if a team like VCU tanks shortly thereafter. However, if the conference starts off at a level clearly below the BCS conferences, it will be relegated to the mid-major level very quickly and probably permanently.

I have nothing against adding Dayton, Saint Louis, or even a school like Richmond. I would just prefer to add them later, after those schools show the type of basketball success to make them "must haves" instead of "institutional fits." Even if everything goes perfectly and those schools raise their game, adding them would still jeopardize the conferences chance for the best possible first impression.

(01-30-2013 10:41 PM)NoDak Wrote:  It comes down to commitment and money. DePaul and Seton Hall seem to have neither, while all of the A10 schools do.

If it wasn't for NCAA rules that require seven schools together for 8 years, DePaul and Seton Hall wouldn't be along for the C7 drive. If there are scapegoats in progress, those two as well as Providence will be the problem children, not anyone moving up from the A10.

?

I cant speak for Seton Hall but DePaul is fully committed in reviving their mens basketball program and how you ask? They dug deep in their pocket to hire a coach to rebuild (though questionable). 7 year contract at $14 million-$2 mill a year. At the time of Purnels hire, he was the 6th highest paid coach in the country. Also, they have two options of moving the team back in the city- free rent from the United Center or a new arena just south of the Loop. Oh Yea, DePaul is in Chicago...If they were in West Lick Indiana it'd be a different story.

(01-30-2013 10:58 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 09:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  It's not by any stretch of the imagination a guarantee the C7 will live on at the level that we expect them to do so. You're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If this goes bad, we will be at best the #7-8 conference, and a real afterthought in general. You can dream and think otherwise, but it's just not the case at all. It won't take much going wrong to have that happen, and if it does happening, it's going to be a near impossible task to get it back.

I just think it's crazy to NOT take into account recent performance. Dayton has shown nothing to show they can perform at a high level . 24-28 the last 3 years against schools that finished with a winning record. VCU same period is 33-20. Plus the fact that Dayton is so close to Xavier makes little sense to duplicate that area. So we're supposed to think with pixie dust Dayton is going to be good, while VCU with the same pixie dust will fall apart. That's just insanity.

Agreed the c* may not be as successful as ita members were in the old big east. However you are going yourself if you think without vcu the c7 is doomed for failure. They very well .at be a great add but they may not be. They LST to LaSalle and Richmond and only beat URI by 6 tonight. Is that a fluke or is it a sign of things to come? None of us can say for sure.
If vcu gets in that would be fine with me. If they dont that would also be fine with me.same with Dayton. You talk about pixie dust, to believe that the fairy tale season vcu had will last forever is foolhardy. Some people trash talk st johns. Who would have believed that would ever happen back in their prime? The c7 need to think long term. As does any conference.Rutgers certainly didn't get a b1g invite due to its on field and court success. If the b10 was Ted to go with recent success why wasn't Boise or wvu or even cincy invited?

the thing is, VCU has shown they can do it. Dayton has not to any extent at all.

The C7 needs to think short term in a lot of ways as much as they do long term. I think you are really delusional if you think that if C7 new league comes out and flops early that there would be any shot for another chance. Even if all goes well, the upper limit is not what it used to be quite frankly.

(01-30-2013 11:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 10:58 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 09:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  It's not by any stretch of the imagination a guarantee the C7 will live on at the level that we expect them to do so. You're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If this goes bad, we will be at best the #7-8 conference, and a real afterthought in general. You can dream and think otherwise, but it's just not the case at all. It won't take much going wrong to have that happen, and if it does happening, it's going to be a near impossible task to get it back.

I just think it's crazy to NOT take into account recent performance. Dayton has shown nothing to show they can perform at a high level . 24-28 the last 3 years against schools that finished with a winning record. VCU same period is 33-20. Plus the fact that Dayton is so close to Xavier makes little sense to duplicate that area. So we're supposed to think with pixie dust Dayton is going to be good, while VCU with the same pixie dust will fall apart. That's just insanity.

Agreed the c* may not be as successful as ita members were in the old big east. However you are going yourself if you think without vcu the c7 is doomed for failure. They very well .at be a great add but they may not be. They LST to LaSalle and Richmond and only beat URI by 6 tonight. Is that a fluke or is it a sign of things to come? None of us can say for sure.
If vcu gets in that would be fine with me. If they dont that would also be fine with me.same with Dayton. You talk about pixie dust, to believe that the fairy tale season vcu had will last forever is foolhardy. Some people trash talk st johns. Who would have believed that would ever happen back in their prime? The c7 need to think long term. As does any conference.Rutgers certainly didn't get a b1g invite due to its on field and court success. If the b10 was Ted to go with recent success why wasn't Boise or wvu or even cincy invited?

the thing is, VCU has shown they can do it. Dayton has not to any extent at all.

The C7 needs to think short term in a lot of ways as much as they do long term. I think you are really delusional if you think that if C7 new league comes out and flops early that there would be any shot for another chance. Even if all goes well, the upper limit is not what it used to be quite frankly.

Didnt 7 out of 8 VCU's NCAA wins just happen in like the last two seasons?

(01-30-2013 11:55 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 11:39 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 10:58 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(01-30-2013 09:48 PM)stever20 Wrote:  It's not by any stretch of the imagination a guarantee the C7 will live on at the level that we expect them to do so. You're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If this goes bad, we will be at best the #7-8 conference, and a real afterthought in general. You can dream and think otherwise, but it's just not the case at all. It won't take much going wrong to have that happen, and if it does happening, it's going to be a near impossible task to get it back.

I just think it's crazy to NOT take into account recent performance. Dayton has shown nothing to show they can perform at a high level . 24-28 the last 3 years against schools that finished with a winning record. VCU same period is 33-20. Plus the fact that Dayton is so close to Xavier makes little sense to duplicate that area. So we're supposed to think with pixie dust Dayton is going to be good, while VCU with the same pixie dust will fall apart. That's just insanity.

Agreed the c* may not be as successful as ita members were in the old big east. However you are going yourself if you think without vcu the c7 is doomed for failure. They very well .at be a great add but they may not be. They LST to LaSalle and Richmond and only beat URI by 6 tonight. Is that a fluke or is it a sign of things to come? None of us can say for sure.
If vcu gets in that would be fine with me. If they dont that would also be fine with me.same with Dayton. You talk about pixie dust, to believe that the fairy tale season vcu had will last forever is foolhardy. Some people trash talk st johns. Who would have believed that would ever happen back in their prime? The c7 need to think long term. As does any conference.Rutgers certainly didn't get a b1g invite due to its on field and court success. If the b10 was Ted to go with recent success why wasn't Boise or wvu or even cincy invited?

the thing is, VCU has shown they can do it. Dayton has not to any extent at all.

The C7 needs to think short term in a lot of ways as much as they do long term. I think you are really delusional if you think that if C7 new league comes out and flops early that there would be any shot for another chance. Even if all goes well, the upper limit is not what it used to be quite frankly.

Didnt 7 out of 8 VCU's NCAA wins just happen in like the last two seasons?

so? They've shown they can do it. Dayton on the other hand hasn't gotten 7 NCAA wins in the last 45 years...... 1 tourney in that span where they won more than 1 game(elite 8 run in 1984).