(01-27-2013 12:07 AM)Turnberry79 Wrote:  You are absolutely correct but I have to think they would let the General Assembly have the first crack at them.

You mean SACS has to let the State have first crack? If so, that's not true at all. SACS, and all other accreditation bodies, are highly secretive and extremely organized (which they can actually manage because they are highly competent...versus the NCAA which is, well, not). Complaints can only be initiated by an academic source at the institution, which means from step 1 an entire SACS case is covered under Federal Whistleblower guidelines. When an investigation is launched, only the Board of the institution is notified...and they are not asked for their cooperation. That's typically the first notification at the State level as Boards of public universities serve under Governors. SACS does not rely on any outside party for information...if they don't find it, it doesn't exist.

Where you might be correct, if this is what you're inferring, is that when the punishment phase draws near most Boards and States will have self-imposed punishments in-hand, so to speak, and SACS almost expects that...so there is a small window for either the Board of Regents, NC State Gov, or both to take quick, self-corrective measures and SACS will take that into account (believe it or not, that's the only way Auburn avoided having their accreditation suspended...they were closer than they ever want people to realize to handing out worthless scraps of paper on graduation day). Another factor, of course, is if criminal charges are filed in connection with any matter SACS is investigating. SACS is required to cooperate in criminal matters and would not likely hand down permanent decisions if there were outstanding criminal cases they deemed pertinent...although they very well could suspend accreditation or take some other intermediate step on matters strictly within their purview.

(01-27-2013 03:04 AM)blazr Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 12:07 AM)Turnberry79 Wrote:  You are absolutely correct but I have to think they would let the General Assembly have the first crack at them.

You mean SACS has to let the State have first crack? If so, that's not true at all. SACS, and all other accreditation bodies, are highly secretive and extremely organized (which they can actually manage because they are highly competent...versus the NCAA which is, well, not). Complaints can only be initiated by an academic source at the institution, which means from step 1 an entire SACS case is covered under Federal Whistleblower guidelines. When an investigation is launched, only the Board of the institution is notified...and they are not asked for their cooperation. That's typically the first notification at the State level as Boards of public universities serve under Governors. SACS does not rely on any outside party for information...if they don't find it, it doesn't exist.

Where you might be correct, if this is what you're inferring, is that when the punishment phase draws near most Boards and States will have self-imposed punishments in-hand, so to speak, and SACS almost expects that...so there is a small window for either the Board of Regents, NC State Gov, or both to take quick, self-corrective measures and SACS will take that into account (believe it or not, that's the only way Auburn avoided having their accreditation suspended...they were closer than they ever want people to realize to handing out worthless scraps of paper on graduation day). Another factor, of course, is if criminal charges are filed in connection with any matter SACS is investigating. SACS is required to cooperate in criminal matters and would not likely hand down permanent decisions if there were outstanding criminal cases they deemed pertinent...although they very well could suspend accreditation or take some other intermediate step on matters strictly within their purview.

I am sorry. I did not make myself clear with what I was saying. It is my opinion that the SACS would let the state legislature complete their investigation, have hearings and allow appropriate charges to be filed against individuals if the facts warranted such action. In addition, it is my opinion that on a matter such as this that the SACS would weigh the state mandated penalties handed down to the university as well as look at the level of oversight put in place moving forward. The new governor, Pat McCrory, as well as the president of the state senate, Phil Berger, have wasted no words about how they feel about the situation. Since the Republicans now control both the General Assembly and governorship you can expect a very strong response from state goverment in this matter. As you know, Chapel Hill and the university has always been the liberal bastion of the state........a state whose goverment has been controlled by Democrats for 100 years. In large part, Carolina has always gotten their way in everything because of that......often at the expense of other state institutions. With this political change I am confident that you will begin to see many things change at the campus in Chapel Hill, both in the makeup and tenor of both the Board of Trustees as well as the Board of Governors of the greater university. I guess I am saying that we probably will now find out about any number of things that were improper that have been allowed to occur over a long stretch of years. I just am of the opinion that, in this case, if a entity such as SCAS were to get involved they would factor all of this in before moving forward with any action.

I have read many threads on this board dealing with realignment where "insiders" have UNC and/or State moving to this or that conference. Maybe that is the case in a perfect world, but the world UNC finds themselves in is anything but that. These posters are fixated on sports and do not grasp the seriousness of this matter and how it will probably be the most important factor in realignment for Carolina. Furthermore, these "prognosticators" lose track of the fact that the institution is owned and controlled by the State of North Carolina and the school is first and foremost there for academic reasons. Taxpayers have a vested interest in the university and know full well that the school keeping its academic integrity is countless times more valuable than any amount of revenue the athletic department could realize through a change in conferences.

Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

I will take that comment as one that was not meant to be serious and a partison jab from a West Virginia fan. Integrity has been damaged yes, but if you objectively look at the matter and read about what has been going on you will see that the faculty at the university has been out front on this issue. If you read articles in the News & Observer you will see the problems were confined to just a few academic areas of the school where athletes were channeled to take certain courses which were either bogus or did not have as part of the course any testing or required term paper. The Afro American Studies department where athletes were found in great numbers was a complete fraud while others, specifically one course in the Department of Naval Science, a very well respected department, had one course in "weapons" which did not have a final exam or require a term paper attracting an inordinate number of athletes. Someone associated with the athletic department was channeling athletes to these type courses where they could get credit and not be required to do any real work. The Afro American studies department was up to their eyeballs in this having no show classes and even changing grades for many athletes to stay eligible while the Naval Sciences class was as clean as a whistle. The fact that the course in weaponry, outlined above, did not require a final exam or term paper was found out by someone associated with the athletic department hunting for such is not the fault of the Naval Sciences Department. So to say the school has no academic integrity is not true. To say that the administration and, maybe even the board of trustees, have acted more like athletic fans than provide management and oversight of the university.......yes. And to say that wholesale changes need to be made in areas of the administration, board of trustees and athletic department also yes. Seriously, anyone with knowledge in collegiate academics knows that Chapel Hill is one of the best universities in the nation. Look at all of the university ratings on numerous facets of higher education. Much of this problem exists in the culture that has been embedded at the university for decades........"we can get away with it because we are Carolina no one will have the guts to look". This applies to the athletic department more so than any area of the school. This problem can be laid to rest at the feet of the former athletic director, Dick Baddour. Interesting that Baddour was allowed to resign rather than suffer the termination that Butch Davis received. Baddour had no experience in athletic administration when he took the job as athletic director. Before that appointment, the only place he had worked since graduating from UNC was in a number of roles in the administration at the university. Talk about being ingrained in the culture and an adherent to "The Carolina Way"........he just took the "we can get away with it" attitude to a much higher level. In short, he was more of a fan than an athletic director.......it was all about winning at any cost. Ironically, Baddour was recommended for the athletic director's post by Johnny Swofford, the athletic director at UNC at that time........and we all know what he does for a living now.

So to say that the school has "lost" all of its academic integrity is a bit too much don't you think?

When it becomes hypocritical, no...

(01-27-2013 11:37 AM)Turnberry79 Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

I will take that comment as one that was not meant to be serious and a partison jab from a West Virginia fan. Integrity has been damaged yes, but if you objectively look at the matter and read about what has been going on you will see that the faculty at the university has been out front on this issue. If you read articles in the News & Observer you will see the problems were confined to just a few academic areas of the school where athletes were channeled to take certain courses which were either bogus or did not have as part of the course any testing or required term paper. The Afro American Studies department where athletes were found in great numbers was a complete fraud while others, specifically one course in the Department of Naval Science, a very well respected department, had one course in "weapons" which did not have a final exam or require a term paper attracting an inordinate number of athletes. Someone associated with the athletic department was channeling athletes to these type courses where they could get credit and not be required to do any real work. The Afro American studies department was up to their eyeballs in this having no show classes and even changing grades for many athletes to stay eligible while the Naval Sciences class was as clean as a whistle. The fact that the course in weaponry, outlined above, did not require a final exam or term paper was found out by someone associated with the athletic department hunting for such is not the fault of the Naval Sciences Department. So to say the school has no academic integrity is not true. To say that the administration and, maybe even the board of trustees, have acted more like athletic fans than provide management and oversight of the university.......yes. And to say that wholesale changes need to be made in areas of the administration, board of trustees and athletic department also yes. Seriously, anyone with knowledge in collegiate academics knows that Chapel Hill is one of the best universities in the nation. Look at all of the university ratings on numerous facets of higher education. Much of this problem exists in the culture that has been embedded at the university for decades........"we can get away with it because we are Carolina no one will have the guts to look". This applies to the athletic department more so than any area of the school. This problem can be laid to rest at the feet of the former athletic director, Dick Baddour. Interesting that Baddour was allowed to resign rather than suffer the termination that Butch Davis received. Baddour had no experience in athletic administration when he took the job as athletic director. Before that appointment, the only place he had worked since graduating from UNC was in a number of roles in the administration at the university. Talk about being ingrained in the culture and an adherent to "The Carolina Way"........he just took the "we can get away with it" attitude to a much higher level. In short, he was more of a fan than an athletic director.......it was all about winning at any cost. Ironically, Baddour was recommended for the athletic director's post by Johnny Swofford, the athletic director at UNC at that time........and we all know what he does for a living now.

So to say that the school has "lost" all of its academic integrity is a bit too much don't you think?

Baddour sounds like a Penn St. inbred type situation.

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

That's a bridge too far, I think. When you have a reputable institution suffer a scandal it's typically one of three things: financial/power-related improprieties by fringe elements, new or peripheral programs leveraging the reputation earned by other schools at the University to create shortcuts to credibility, or a finding that the actual field or fields upon which the institution has built it's reputation of greatness have been compromised. This seems, from the facts uncovered so far, to be the 2nd case. It's not like someone discovered that MIT grads can't perform basic math or that all of their published results in applied physics or quantum mechanics research were completely fabricated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

(01-27-2013 12:32 PM)blazr Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

That's a bridge too far, I think. When you have a reputable institution suffer a scandal it's typically one of three things: financial/power-related improprieties by fringe elements, new or peripheral programs leveraging the reputation earned by other schools at the University to create shortcuts to credibility, or a finding that the actual field or fields upon which the institution has built it's reputation of greatness have been compromised. This seems, from the facts uncovered so far, to be the 2nd case. It's not like someone discovered that MIT grads can't perform basic math or that all of their published results in applied physics or quantum mechanics research were completely fabricated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Very astute observation. In my opinion, I think you have hit the nail right on the head. Like any other person or entity that is caught doing something improper there are penalties to pay, the severity of which normally being in line with the detriment that wrongdoing created. Chapel Hill will pay a penalty and it will be directed at those individuals that are directly responsible and those who aided and abetted the wrongdoing. That could conceivably touch a great many people. This matter has already cost the jobs of the chancellor of the university and its athletic director with others now being investigated for possible criminal activity. The departments or areas those individuals headed, or were part of, will also be penalized as a deterrant to insure that the new leaders are vigilant and do not allow anything of that sort to happen again. It has been shown over the past months that Chapel Hill does not have the capacity or willingness to properly investigate itself, thus the General Assembly has no other option but to act on behalf of the taxpayers. As noted previously, I cannot see the athletic department at Chapel Hill being allowed to receive a windfall associated with moving to an athletic conference that allows for greater media rights revenue. Doing so, would only further enhance the negative impression that many now have toward the university and its athletic department.........and that is what truly would be hypocritical.

(01-27-2013 12:32 PM)blazr Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

That's a bridge too far, I think. When you have a reputable institution suffer a scandal it's typically one of three things: financial/power-related improprieties by fringe elements, new or peripheral programs leveraging the reputation earned by other schools at the University to create shortcuts to credibility, or a finding that the actual field or fields upon which the institution has built it's reputation of greatness have been compromised. This seems, from the facts uncovered so far, to be the 2nd case. It's not like someone discovered that MIT grads can't perform basic math or that all of their published results in applied physics or quantum mechanics research were completely fabricated.

But we're not talking about MIT here. We're discussing UNC. They have found some UNC grads unable to do basic math, with school records that were fabricated...

So that probably wasn't the best analogy to use here...

(01-27-2013 05:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 12:32 PM)blazr Wrote:  [quote='bitcruncher' pid='8892111' dateline='1359301112']Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

That's a bridge too far, I think. When you have a reputable institution suffer a scandal it's typically one of three things: financial/power-related improprieties by fringe elements, new or peripheral programs leveraging the reputation earned by other schools at the University to create shortcuts to credibility, or a finding that the actual field or fields upon which the institution has built it's reputation of greatness have been compromised. This seems, from the facts uncovered so far, to be the 2nd case. It's not like someone discovered that MIT grads can't perform basic math or that all of their published results in applied physics or quantum mechanics research were completely fabricated.

But we're not talking about MIT here. We're discussing UNC. They have found some UNC grads unable to do basic math, with school records that were fabricated...

So that probably wasn't the best analogy to use here...
[/quote


Can you provide me the names of those that graduated and unable to handle basic math.......and if they were athletes and if so in what sport? Would you also please provide me with the link to the site that you were able to locate this information? I will then pass this on to the North Carolina state senator that I went to school with and who I am in contact with. I know she would appreciate your information. Thanks.

To my knowledge there has been absolutely no information released showing that records were altered or fabricated in any math course. I went to both grad and law school with a number of people who have trouble with basic math and they are quite successful.

(01-27-2013 08:24 PM)Turnberry79 Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 05:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 12:32 PM)blazr Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

That's a bridge too far, I think. When you have a reputable institution suffer a scandal it's typically one of three things: financial/power-related improprieties by fringe elements, new or peripheral programs leveraging the reputation earned by other schools at the University to create shortcuts to credibility, or a finding that the actual field or fields upon which the institution has built it's reputation of greatness have been compromised. This seems, from the facts uncovered so far, to be the 2nd case. It's not like someone discovered that MIT grads can't perform basic math or that all of their published results in applied physics or quantum mechanics research were completely fabricated.

But we're not talking about MIT here. We're discussing UNC. They have found some UNC grads unable to do basic math, with school records that were fabricated...

So that probably wasn't the best analogy to use here...

Can you provide me the names of those that graduated and unable to handle basic math.......and if they were athletes and if so in what sport? Would you also please provide me with the link to the site that you were able to locate this information? I will then pass this on to the North Carolina state senator that I went to school with and who I am in contact with. I know she would appreciate your information. Thanks.

To my knowledge there has been absolutely no information released showing that records were altered or fabricated in any math course. I went to both grad and law school with a number of people who have trouble with basic math and they are quite successful.

Math isn't exactly required, unless you're going into accounting, engineering, or a scientific or technological field. So I'm not surprised lawyers find it unnecessary...

As for specific individuals, I can't recall offhand. But I do remember they played football back in the early 1990s. My father wrote something about one of the players in question in an article shortly before he retired in 1993. The player he wrote the story about was a West Virginia native that played for UNC. He named names, but as far as I know the only thing that came out of it was the article...

That article is part of the Bill Smith collection in the WV archives at the WV Science and Cultural Center in Charleston...

(01-27-2013 08:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 08:24 PM)Turnberry79 Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 05:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 12:32 PM)blazr Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 10:38 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Turnberry, UNC has no academic integrity left to protect. This scandal have proven that out...

That's a bridge too far, I think. When you have a reputable institution suffer a scandal it's typically one of three things: financial/power-related improprieties by fringe elements, new or peripheral programs leveraging the reputation earned by other schools at the University to create shortcuts to credibility, or a finding that the actual field or fields upon which the institution has built it's reputation of greatness have been compromised. This seems, from the facts uncovered so far, to be the 2nd case. It's not like someone discovered that MIT grads can't perform basic math or that all of their published results in applied physics or quantum mechanics research were completely fabricated.

But we're not talking about MIT here. We're discussing UNC. They have found some UNC grads unable to do basic math, with school records that were fabricated...

So that probably wasn't the best analogy to use here...

Can you provide me the names of those that graduated and unable to handle basic math.......and if they were athletes and if so in what sport? Would you also please provide me with the link to the site that you were able to locate this information? I will then pass this on to the North Carolina state senator that I went to school with and who I am in contact with. I know she would appreciate your information. Thanks.

To my knowledge there has been absolutely no information released showing that records were altered or fabricated in any math course. I went to both grad and law school with a number of people who have trouble with basic math and they are quite successful.

Math isn't exactly required, unless you're going into accounting, engineering, or a scientific or technological field. So I'm not surprised lawyers find it unnecessary...

As for specific individuals, I can't recall offhand. But I do remember they played football back in the early 1990s. My father wrote something about one of the players in question in an article shortly before he retired in 1993. The player he wrote the story about was a West Virginia native that played for UNC. He named names, but as far as I know the only thing that came out of it was the article...

That article is part of the Bill Smith collection in the WV archives at the WV Science and Cultural Center in Charleston...

Could you possibly get me the information as to who can be contated relating being able to access that information? Feel free to get in touch with me via a private message. I am serious and not just saying that to prod you. I don't waste my time or that of others engaging in such nonsense.

If it was in the early 90's it would have been before any of the academic wrongdoing was known to have been undertaken. But who really knows? So very little is yet known as UNC-CH has not been forthcoming to any degree in this matter. Ironically, during that time frame the athletic director was Johnny Swofford. Makes one think....no?

Thanks.

You'd have to check with the folks at the WV Science and Cultural Center. I'm not sure who handles the archives. The fellow that handled that when it was donated after my father's death has since retired. My mother and sister handled the donation, not me...

(01-27-2013 09:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  You'd have to check with the folks at the WV Science and Cultural Center. I'm not sure who handles the archives. The fellow that handled that when it was donated after my father's death has since retired. My mother and sister handled the donation, not me...

\\

I appreciate your candor and will see if I can give a call tomorrow and let you know what I come up with. Thanks.

(01-27-2013 09:51 PM)Turnberry79 Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 09:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  You'd have to check with the folks at the WV Science and Cultural Center. I'm not sure who handles the archives. The fellow that handled that when it was donated after my father's death has since retired. My mother and sister handled the donation, not me...

I appreciate your candor and will see if I can give a call tomorrow and let you know what I come up with. Thanks.

No problem...

The UNC System Board of Governors will be under the control of Republican interests in the years to come. Last year the General Assembly was controlled by the Republicans and they appointed 16 members. This year all branches of state government are under Republican control and they will once again appoint 16 new members. How this will affect the UNC academic scandal remains to be seen. Generally speaking, given the generally negative view of government's role in education, I fear that it is going to be a rocky road ahead.

(01-27-2013 05:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  But we're not talking about MIT here. We're discussing UNC. They have found some UNC grads unable to do basic math, with school records that were fabricated...

So that probably wasn't the best analogy to use here...

No, the analogy was apt...I'm sorry, the analogy was a "good 'un", but you completely missed the point. In fact, I have to say you did so with a flair I'm normally accustomed to only seeing from SEC fans, so perhaps WVU is destined for a better home than the Big XII.

Anywho, UNC's academic reputation - from someone who lives in NC now but grew up in another state - is based on their Business school, MBA program, and their Public Health & Pharmacy programs (along with the school's standing as a public research university). They have other highly respected programs, but those are the "bread & butter" in a sense. This particular scandal involves a sizable number of undergraduates being offered the chance, and taking advantage of same, to skate towards degrees while doing essentially zero academic work. However, that is a different scandal altogether than it would be if it were discovered that UNC-CH had been fraudulently inflating factors related to their rep in the aforementioned "bread & butter" programs. Not saying it's better or worse, and it's certainly bad - very, very bad - but that 2nd, hypothetical scandal would have the potential to truly be lethal to UNC-CH's rep in the way that you're implying the actual scandal does, but it really doesn't.

(01-27-2013 11:00 PM)blazr Wrote:  

(01-27-2013 05:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  But we're not talking about MIT here. We're discussing UNC. They have found some UNC grads unable to do basic math, with school records that were fabricated...

So that probably wasn't the best analogy to use here...

No, the analogy was apt...I'm sorry, the analogy was a "good 'un", but you completely missed the point. In fact, I have to say you did so with a flair I'm normally accustomed to only seeing from SEC fans, so perhaps WVU is destined for a better home than the Big XII.

Anywho, UNC's academic reputation - from someone who lives in NC now but grew up in another state - is based on their Business school, MBA program, and their Public Health & Pharmacy programs (along with the school's standing as a public research university). They have other highly respected programs, but those are the "bread & butter" in a sense. This particular scandal involves a sizable number of undergraduates being offered the chance, and taking advantage of same, to skate towards degrees while doing essentially zero academic work. However, that is a different scandal altogether than it would be if it were discovered that UNC-CH had been fraudulently inflating factors related to their rep in the aforementioned "bread & butter" programs. Not saying it's better or worse, and it's certainly bad - very, very bad - but that 2nd, hypothetical scandal would have the potential to truly be lethal to UNC-CH's rep in the way that you're implying the actual scandal does, but it really doesn't.

But it taints every single student's degree. Alums should be furious and going after the administration for allowing this to happen over such an extended period. Lack of institutional control is the term used at Penn St.

(01-28-2013 09:13 AM)bullet Wrote:  But it taints every single student's degree. Alums should be furious and going after the administration for allowing this to happen over such an extended period. Lack of institutional control is the term used at Penn St.

To some extent...and especially since most people just hear "North Carolina academic scandal" and have no desire to learn more. You are definitely spot on about alums being up in arms about the scandal. I would be beyond furious. BUT, bitcruncher argued that "...UNC has no academic integrity left to protect..." which is absolutely not true nor should it be. If the scope of the scandal remains as is, the University is not likely to lose current research grants or be permanently damaged in the competition for future such monies (that's assuming neither the State nor SACs see the need for punitive measures reaching into the school's research capabilities or accreditation in general).

I'm not defending what went on at UNC-CH. It's despicable. I'm just saying that scandals, like most things, have a scope based on their specifics and this does not fall into the category of something that should and will cause university-wide loss of status. It's a crass analogy, but it's like learning someone who served time in prison on a murder conviction moved into your neighborhood and you start planning to move because you have children that you fear could be sexually assaulted by the person. They would have made a mistake and paid a price, but you would also be reacting incorrectly to the actual nature of the threat, if any.

(01-26-2013 01:38 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 12:36 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 09:24 AM)TRest3 Wrote:  Putting aside the obvious fraud that allowed UNC athletes to stay academically eligible, what purpose is this serving the poor non-athlete schmucks taking these classes? UNC was printing worthless diplomas and sending these kids out in the world to fail. This department should be shut down.

Keep in mind that it was African American type Dept....

So the reason for having fake classes and giving out good grades was two fold and REAL. UNC wanted to graduate its athletes and its minorities, many of whom were not equipped to handle regular coursework (as seen in their other grades in regular classwork).

The problem is this isn't just easy classes, this is actual fraudulent classes, not taught as approved by the University and grades changed by forgery. UNC was trying to have it both ways, championing its curriculum while dumbing it down to the point of just giving out diplomas to a select few for special purposes. Those purposes were for athletic achievement and diversity. Whats really amazing is that UNC is one of the worst culprits of "grade inflation" in the country. It wants everyone to graduate with "honors" so they can get into a good grad school. It needs a good thorough housecleaning...its a house of cards in Chapel Hill.

Yep! House of cards occupied by only 1 professor and 1 adminsitrative assistant and they are both gone from the University. It was a very small house.

Sticking ones head in the sand solves nothing. The facti is Chapel Hill is an embarrassment to itself and the entire NC University System. The school fancies itself a "public ivy" and promotes its "Carolina Way" Those fallacies have been revealed and have irreparably tarnished the reputation of the school. This goes way beyond sports rivalries and cuts to the bone of the academic reputation of a ONCE proud university. No one at Chapel Hill can ever make light of another school's academics without being laughed out of the room. Spinning the situation and hiding ones head in the sand changes nothing.