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OOC home games
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Chipdip Offline
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Post: #1
OOC home games
EMU- A team that can't draw 800 fans on a good day had 7 home games

CMU- A program that struggles to bring in a 1000 fans had 5 home games.

WMU- A program that routinely brings in 2500 plus had 4 home games

BG- Had 7 home games including MSU

NIU- 5

Miami- 4

Akron- 7 home games

Kent- 9 home games
01-02-2013 12:32 PM
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EA3 Offline
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RE: OOC home games
It's a problem.

I'm not convinced it's 100% about the budget and the fact that we have DI hockey.

I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept. is extremely conservative and refuses to spend the extra 100-120k per year to get us 7 or 8 non conference home games.
01-02-2013 12:36 PM
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DesertBronco Offline
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Post: #3
RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 12:36 PM)EA3 Wrote:  It's a problem.

I'm not convinced it's 100% about the budget and the fact that we have DI hockey.

I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept. is extremely conservative and refuses to spend the extra 100-120k per year to get us 7 or 8 non conference home games.

Why are you inclined to believe that EA3? Do you have a handle on the budget they have to spend and what they're choosing to allocate?

Fill us in. I've asked you this before, you dodge the issue when you make this claim. Why do you make it so often and with such conviction?
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 01:22 PM by DesertBronco.)
01-02-2013 12:47 PM
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bronco74 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 12:47 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 12:36 PM)EA3 Wrote:  It's a problem.

I'm not convinced it's 100% about the budget and the fact that we have DI hockey.

I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept. is extremely conservative and refuses to spend the extra 100-120k per year to get us 7 or 8 non conference home games.

Why are you inclined to believe that EA3? Do you have a handle on the budget they have to spend and what they're choosing to allocate?

Fill us in. I've asked you this before, you dodge the issue when you make this claim. Why do you make it so often and with such conviction?

Here we go gain.

"I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept"....not much conviction. Sounds more like speculation.
01-02-2013 01:11 PM
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EA3 Offline
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RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 12:47 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 12:36 PM)EA3 Wrote:  It's a problem.

I'm not convinced it's 100% about the budget and the fact that we have DI hockey.

I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept. is extremely conservative and refuses to spend the extra 100-120k per year to get us 7 or 8 non conference home games.

Why are you inclined to believe that EA3? Do you have a handle on the budget they have to spend and what they're choosing to allocate?

Fill us in. I've asked you this before, you dodge the issue when you make this claim. Why do you make it so often and with such conviction?

To answer your questions as simply as possible...

Here is why I believe that:

It costs about 40k to buy a mid major home game. When compared to travel expenses, using High Point as example...I find the monetary difference cannot be that far apart. WMU pays for a charter bus to take the 17 members of the team, 4 coaches, athletic trainer, 2 team managers, director of ops, and at least one WMU rep (sean fagan) to Detroit. That's a minimum of 26 people. They fly commercial to Charlotte...likely costing about $350 per tic. They charter another bus, provide per diem money and/or provide all meals, stay two nights in a hotel (13 rooms at $150 per night)

Here's a rundown:

$300 charter bus to detroit airport
$9100 in plane tics ($350 x 26 people)
$3000 for charter bus for 2 days in NC
$2340 for meals ($15 per meal, 6 total meals, 26 people)
$3900 for hotel ($150 per night, 2 nights, 13 rooms)
$300 return charter bus from detroit

Total = $18940 (expenses as figured by an outsider)

Now if we averaged 3100 per home game last year...I would say approximately 2500 of those people paid a MINIMUM of $13 per tic.

Do the math...does it add up? Does it make sense that we are on the road? Is it worth trading the @ High Point game for a home game that we buy for 40k? I'd say heck yes. Even without factoring in the revenue of a game, it's well worth 20k or so to get another home game. Throw in the revenue from the game, and we are likely making money.

Again, we just spent 140k to buyout our football coach, and threw in another 100k per year for his assistants. We also just got a check from the MAC for Temple leaving...and another one is coming for NIU's Orange Bowl appearance...and yet another one is coming for Ohio's Sweet 16 appearance...all of which were unexpected. Our athletic dept. has money. How much? I don't know. But we aren't poor. If we were, we'd be scheduling bball games like we did last year, and we'd be scheduling football games against all top 25 teams/programs to maximize paydays.

It isn't expensive to buy home games against mid majors in basketball. Why we aren't doing it is beyond me. Again, if I had to guess...it's because our athletic dept. is fairly conservative. They CHOOSE not to spend the money.



No, I do not have exact numbers for our budget. However, it does not take a rocket scientist to use simple math when a few key variables are public knowledge (where we play, how we get there, cost of buying a game, etc...)



Why with such conviction? Because athletic departments don't operate from paycheck to paycheck. They likely have money that is either ear marked for something else...or they choose not to spend it on home games for bball.



More importantly...why would you, DB, be so inclined to disagree with such a statement? Are you such a "company guy" that you support everything the admin does without questioning whether it makes sense?
01-02-2013 01:36 PM
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EA3 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 01:11 PM)bronco74 Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 12:47 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 12:36 PM)EA3 Wrote:  It's a problem.

I'm not convinced it's 100% about the budget and the fact that we have DI hockey.

I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept. is extremely conservative and refuses to spend the extra 100-120k per year to get us 7 or 8 non conference home games.

Why are you inclined to believe that EA3? Do you have a handle on the budget they have to spend and what they're choosing to allocate?

Fill us in. I've asked you this before, you dodge the issue when you make this claim. Why do you make it so often and with such conviction?

Here we go gain.

"I'm more inclined to believe that our athletic dept"....not much conviction. Sounds more like speculation.

You do the math. Tell me how it works out for ya.

Go ahead...figure the expenses of traveling to High Point, Cornell, or Duquesne...and factor those against the cost of buying a home game against a mid major and the revenue a home game brings.


If someone has a more logical answer than mine...I'm all ears.
01-02-2013 01:39 PM
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DesertBronco Offline
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Post: #7
RE: OOC home games
Your "answer" isn't logical at all, it's speculative. How about they don't have the money? That's as plausable as your "they have it and won't spend it".
01-02-2013 02:01 PM
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EA3 Offline
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RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 02:01 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Your "answer" isn't logical at all, it's speculative. How about they don't have the money? That's as plausable as your "they have it and won't spend it".

It's all speculative. I realize this. And both are plausible. I choose to believe one over the other.


What signs have pointed to WMU having money they choose not to spend?

What signs have pointed to WMU not having money to spend?


And, does it "cost" WMU money to buy a home game for 40k? Or do they come real close to breaking even when revenues are considered?

Again, I look at it as our athletic dept. is being conservative. If they knew they were guaranteed 3100 on any given home date before the season...they might act accordingly. Unfortunately I don't think they are willing to pay 40k for a home game, and roll the dice to see if 3100 show up. The team might not be playing well or the weather could be garbage. Both could affect attendance negatively.


*The true cost of a buying a mid major home game is between 30-40k. I used 40k because I still think the numbers make sense on the high end.
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 02:15 PM by EA3.)
01-02-2013 02:14 PM
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EA3 Offline
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RE: OOC home games
Other explanations:

1. WMU chooses to go on the road because the team needs to learn how to win and play hard on the road before league play starts. And Cleveland is also on the road, hence it prepares them well.

*Not sure I buy this. Akron and Ohio are #1 and #2 in the MAC and they do the opposite. Of course, Cleveland is practically a home game for Akron.


2. Away games help our RPI and potential for an NIT bid.

*I'd throw up if that was the reason. MAC is a one bid league...and a one bid NIT league as well. I'd say RPI is important if we projected to have a 20+ win season. Last year would have been the time to have this year's schedule. This year would be a good time to schedule the home games.
01-02-2013 02:16 PM
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Post: #10
RE: OOC home games
I'm just not sure we make as much revenue on each game, plus there's probably some fairly significant overhead there that (correct me if I'm wrong) I haven't seen taken into account.

It'd be very interesting to see the numbers in any case
01-02-2013 02:28 PM
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Dirty Ernie Offline
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RE: OOC home games
At the executive level decisions have to be made based first on long term strategy.

In another thread (football) there was the comment that the late 90's and early 2000's were weird in that we had football crowds exceeding 30,000. Personally, and speculatively I think that was because Elson Floyd saw the strategic advantage of being all in on athletics and the profile image advantage that brought.

Then we got a new board, athletic success was "out", everything went to hell, then we got the current setup that appears to be based on micromanagement and penny pinching for its own sake. Just speculation on my part.

The result, again just my opinion, is expenditures and schedules seem to be very short term based. The long range vision and the strategic vision to carry it out is not supported.

This 1 game in 41 days thing is an example. To me it is just some kind of kick in the teeth. Nobody with the power to put the local fan and team member first seems to give a rip about setting up the program or community for long range success.

Look at the football PR and stated vision, and contrast that with the the actual support and setups we can all see. The vision and strategy are not aligned with the resources and schedules.

As long as that is true, the outcomes cannot be expected to change. Just think if Elson had been able to stay to finish his strategic plan. Maybe WMU could have had the magical success of a Boise or Gonzaga. Just saying'.
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 02:35 PM by Dirty Ernie.)
01-02-2013 02:29 PM
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EA3 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 02:28 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  I'm just not sure we make as much revenue on each game, plus there's probably some fairly significant overhead there that (correct me if I'm wrong) I haven't seen taken into account.

It'd be very interesting to see the numbers in any case

Somebody needs to ask and do an article.

There are obviously expenses for a home game.

-refs
-police
-cleaning after game ($300 per game, per my buddy who I caught with a broom after the Oakland game)
-operating costs for building
-ticket window

Those shouldn't add up to an obscene amount. What am I missing from that list?
01-02-2013 02:35 PM
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WMU83 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: OOC home games
I also don't see how we can't at least have 7 OOC home games per year. If we have to, bring in 2 1-AA each year. I believe it cost under 10,000.
01-02-2013 02:36 PM
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Chipdip Offline
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Post: #14
RE: OOC home games
EA
Quote:Again, I look at it as our athletic dept. is being conservative. If they knew they were guaranteed 3100 on any given home date before the season...they might act accordingly. Unfortunately I don't think they are willing to pay 40k for a home game, and roll the dice to see if 3100 show up. The team might not be playing well or the weather could be garbage. Both could affect attendance negatively.


*The true cost of a buying a mid major home game is between 30-40k. I used 40k because I still think the numbers make sense on the high end.

How do you explain EMU and CMU having more home games. Neither draw a 1000 fans even to MAC games. EMU hosted MSU last year and couldn't fill the lower deck. If it's about cost how does a school like EMU, that has no football revenue, and draws zilch in basketball, afford 7 home games, including hosting Purdue?
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 02:37 PM by Chipdip.)
01-02-2013 02:37 PM
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EA3 Offline
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RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 02:37 PM)Chipdip Wrote:  EA
Quote:Again, I look at it as our athletic dept. is being conservative. If they knew they were guaranteed 3100 on any given home date before the season...they might act accordingly. Unfortunately I don't think they are willing to pay 40k for a home game, and roll the dice to see if 3100 show up. The team might not be playing well or the weather could be garbage. Both could affect attendance negatively.


*The true cost of a buying a mid major home game is between 30-40k. I used 40k because I still think the numbers make sense on the high end.

How do you explain EMU and CMU having more home games. Neither draw a 1000 fans even to MAC games. EMU hosted MSU last year and couldn't fill the lower deck. If it's about cost how does a school like EMU, that has no football revenue, and draws zilch in basketball, afford 7 home games, including hosting Purdue?


I don't know about EMU hosting Purdue. Could be tied to football? A future deal? Not sure.

In regards to both CMU and EMU....it's frustrating to see them have more home games. My answer would be that they decided to buy their home games, and we didn't.
01-02-2013 02:47 PM
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BrianPersky Offline
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Post: #16
RE: OOC home games
Sounds like philosophical differences among different athletic departments. Same reason EMU pays a coordinator position 200k.

Agree it would be an interesting dig.
01-02-2013 02:49 PM
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DesertBronco Offline
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Post: #17
RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 02:28 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  I'm just not sure we make as much revenue on each game, plus there's probably some fairly significant overhead there that (correct me if I'm wrong) I haven't seen taken into account.

It'd be very interesting to see the numbers in any case

Being a project guy and a numbers guy at the same time, I gravitate to facts and data rather than throwing an idea out there, then talking like it's already a fact when it's not out of the hypothetical phase.

I'd rather hear or see the numbers, maybe Persky and PM someone for ideas on questions and go ask? 03-idea
01-02-2013 02:57 PM
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EA3 Offline
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Post: #18
RE: OOC home games
On a scale of 1-10.....10 being completely off, and 1 being dead on...

How close do you think my numbers are?
01-02-2013 03:00 PM
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BrianPersky Offline
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Post: #19
RE: OOC home games
If I'm guilty for attempting to provide you with an opportunity for some validation, then so be it.

Otherwise, I'm not buying your conspiracy theories and will move on.
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 03:02 PM by BrianPersky.)
01-02-2013 03:02 PM
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DesertBronco Offline
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RE: OOC home games
(01-02-2013 03:00 PM)EA3 Wrote:  On a scale of 1-10.....10 being completely off, and 1 being dead on...

How close do you think my numbers are?

No idea, really. Only because government/university accounting is a totally different animal, which is why I LOL when people talk in terms of "profit" when discussing collegate athletics.
01-02-2013 03:12 PM
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