Preface: Wichita State is a public school in Wichita, Kansas with 14,898 students. They do not have a football team, FCS or FBS.

I think that if the conference expands to 12-14 teams (originally starting at 10), Wichita State should be on the short list of teams to add. First, I'll address the reasons not to add them:

1. The fact that it is a non-Catholic public school:

Wichita State is a public school, but it has more in common with the private schools in the C7 than most large state schools. It is in the largest city in the state, and does not have any form of football team. This means that the basketball team is by far the most important sports team in the city.

2. Geography:

Wichita State may be isolated from the rest of the conference. However, if would be far less isolated than a team like Gonzaga or Saint Mary's, and the "Air Capital of the World" shouldn't have a problem accommodating flights.

Additionally, adding Wichita State makes sense with Creighton and/or Saint Louis in the conference. The cities are close enough that teams could bus from one city to another, which would eliminate the need for an extra flight.

3. Market Size

Wichita-Hutchinson is rated as the #69 largest market. That is not large compared to Cincinnati (34), Indianapolis (25), or Saint Louis (21). However, it is comparable to Dayton (64), and larger than Spokane (75), or Omaha (76).

However, it has less competition than the top 3 markets. Cincinnati and Indianapolis have NFL teams that control most of the market, and Saint Louis is a baseball/hockey town. Cincinnati also splits the college basketball market between Xavier and Cincinnati.

Wichita State has no professional competition (semi-pro hockey is the closest thing), and doesn't directly split its TV market with other colleges. There are a lot of KState and KU fans in the city, but that is no different from Butler/Indiana competition. Essentially, the Wichita State catches a much larger percentage of its media market than teams in higher ranked markets, and is larger than teams in similar markets (and growing fast).


Now, the positives for Wichita State:

1. Quality basketball

This is the foremost consideration I'll make. Wichita State's RPI would be the highest in the C7 if it joined today, and this was supposed to be a rebuilding season. While they have not had a ton of recent success in the tournament, they look like they will be a top quality team as long as Gregg Marshall is the coach.

More importantly, Wichita State looks willing to invest in basketball. They already pay top dollar for their coaching staff (Marshall is getting $1.6 million this year I believe), and they are investing in both the program and university. They are spending $50-55 million on a new residence hall (due in 2014), and are renovating the student center and other buildings on campus. Supposedly they have plans to expand the basketball stadium by 2000-3000 students.

The key for any basketball team is the coach, and Gregg Marshall is a quality coach. He has won conference championships in 9 of 14 seasons, and has led both Winthrop and Wichita State to their best single season records. This season should be a good one to watch, because Wichita State lost 5 senior starters from last year's team, and currently has 4 starters injured (one still able to play). If they make it to the tournament, he could be a national CoY candidate.

2. Other sports:

The most successful sport for Wichita State is their baseball program. They have the highest winning percentage of any team the last 31 years, with 7 World Series appearances and one win. In 1982, the team set the NCAA record for single season wins, and the team has had a winning seasons every year since 1978. Their coach is second in career wins.

Their women's basketball was picked to win the conference in basketball, and their volleyball team went to the Sweet 16 in the NCAA tournament this year. Other sports have occasionally contending for conference titles.

The Shockers sponsor men's basketball, baseball, outdoor track & field, indoor track & field, cross country, golf, tennis and women's basketball, softball, outdoor track & field, indoor track & field, cross country, golf, tennis, volleyball.

TL;DR: Wichita State would be a good candidate if the conference goes to 12-14 teams. The negatives are overstated, and the positive is a really good basketball team with decent other sports.

I gotta say no, unless for some reason ESPN wants to give us more money to go past 12. Not a slam on Wichita but I have these teams ahead of them.

Butler
Xavier
VCU
Creighton
Dayton
St. Louis
Richmond

They would fit in well geographically with Creighton and St. Louis.

VCU and Richmond have all those things and they're in a better market. Richmond is the #58 DMA and unlike most other schools being touted for their markets, VCU actually carries their market as the largest public school in Virginia with tons of local alumni.

Wichita State is a great program with very strong support. Gregg Marshall should be right up there with Brad Stevens and Shaka Smart.

I do think VCU has more appeal to ESPN and is more marketable from a TV package perspective than Wichita State though.

(12-21-2012 06:33 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  I gotta say no, unless for some reason ESPN wants to give us more money to go past 12. Not a slam on Wichita but I have these teams ahead of them.

Butler
Xavier
VCU
Creighton
Dayton
St. Louis
Richmond

I think they have a better basketball team than Dayton, Saint Louis, or Richmond, and that is why I want to put them in the conversation. I understand that other considerations may take precedence, and that they definitely would not be in the mix unless the conference goes to 12-14 teams (and they continue having success in the mean time).

(12-21-2012 06:37 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  VCU and Richmond have all those things and they're in a better market. Richmond is the #58 DMA and unlike most other schools being touted for their markets, VCU actually carries their market as the largest public school in Virginia with tons of local alumni.

.

I would put VCU in before Richmond, and I don't see both teams getting in because they share a market. Personally, I think the best possible basketball adds are Xavier, Butler, Creighton, VCU, and Wichita State and those would be the programs I would add if I looked at basketball only.

(12-21-2012 06:22 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Preface: Wichita State is a public school in Wichita, Kansas with 14,898 students. They do not have a football team, FCS or FBS.

I think that if the conference expands to 12-14 teams (originally starting at 10), Wichita State should be on the short list of teams to add. First, I'll address the reasons not to add them:

1. The fact that it is a non-Catholic public school:

Is a vastly overrated problem. Syracuse, UConn, and Louisville were non-Catholic public schools, and we'd have them back in a heartbeat. VCU is my personal pick for the 10th and final slot, and they're a non-Catholic public school.

Quote:2. Geography:

This is Wichita State's biggest holdup. If you had Gonzaga's resume, though, Wichita would be close enough.

Quote:3. Market Size

Market size is small, but more importantly you carry it. Problem is, you're in line behind VCU and St Louis. (I'm not sure how well SLU carries St Louis, but they're the No. 1 basketball team in a 3M metro. And VCU is the only game in town in Richmond, a 1M metro, and has national cred.)

You made some solid arguments in favor of Wichita, but they all also apply in spades to VCU, who is a lot closer and just hung a Final Four banner.


Now, the positives for Wichita State:

1. Quality basketball[/quote]

I wikipedia'd WSU yesterday, and you've got a good number of NCAA bids over the last 10-15 years. Very respectable.

[quote[
TL;DR: Wichita State would be a good candidate if the conference goes to 12-14 teams. The negatives are overstated, and the positive is a really good basketball team with decent other sports.
[/quote]

We'd have to go to 16 or 18 nationwide for the Shockers to have a real chance.

Locks: C-7, Butler, Xavier
Finalists for No 10-12: VCU, St Louis, Dayton, Creighton.

This guy (collegebasketballfan) is a Wichita State homer and member of their message board.

Not that that's good or bad, just thought it should be cited as a point of reference.

(12-22-2012 01:40 PM)handdownmandown Wrote:  This guy (collegebasketballfan) is a Wichita State homer and member of their message board.

Not that that's good or bad, just thought it should be cited as a point of reference.

Yeah, I picked up on that.

It's all good though. We're all here because we love BBall schools.

I know Duquesne may be low on the list but I think the Dukes would be a great fit. They bring back the Pittsburgh market, and would have to raise their football profile a little esp if C7 wants to compete in football as well.

(12-22-2012 01:40 PM)handdownmandown Wrote:  This guy (collegebasketballfan) is a Wichita State homer and member of their message board.

Not that that's good or bad, just thought it should be cited as a point of reference.

Of course I am, but I tried to make reasonable arguments. I didn't say we should the first choice or in the first 10 teams, just that we would be a better fit for the conference then we appear at first glance and that we should be considered when and if the conference decides to add teams.

I fully expect the conference to start with only 10, though TV may necessitate a change to 12.

(12-22-2012 01:40 PM)handdownmandown Wrote:  This guy (collegebasketballfan) is a Wichita State homer and member of their message board.

Not that that's good or bad, just thought it should be cited as a point of reference.

He said that right off the bat, didn't he? Or he said that he's a WSU fan anyway. Besides, it wasn't subtle.

Wichita st fans are freaking out at what the loss of Creighton will do to the MVC. I don't think there is any chance of being invited to this conference but I hope our school pres and AD are working on something.

University Presidents are making these decisions. As such, academics and admissions standards are a part of the equation. As things stand now Creighton is in a basketball-centric conference and I know the C7 fans are going to love that about the new league. However, CU's admission standards are more stringent than most if not all of the state schools in the MVC and that puts the state schools at an advantage regarding who they can recruit.

There are some state schools known for academic excellence. Unless you are one of them and a basketball-centric school I would not expect these Presidents to give you a call.

(12-22-2012 07:37 PM)ShockValue Wrote:  Wichita st fans are freaking out at what the loss of Creighton will do to the MVC. I don't think there is any chance of being invited to this conference but I hope our school pres and AD are working on something.

Maybe reach out to St Louis--if they don't get invited to the BE, they're pretty isolated in the A-10 with Xavier (and Butler) gone, and maybe Dayton too.

I think they definitely deserve to be part of the discussion, although I'm not sure if they make the final cut. Have to admit though, the resume is a lot better than I realized.

(12-22-2012 07:50 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 07:37 PM)ShockValue Wrote:  Wichita st fans are freaking out at what the loss of Creighton will do to the MVC. I don't think there is any chance of being invited to this conference but I hope our school pres and AD are working on something.

Maybe reach out to St Louis--if they don't get invited to the BE, they're pretty isolated in the A-10 with Xavier (and Butler) gone, and maybe Dayton too.

The A-10 would definitely take them.

(12-22-2012 09:14 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 07:50 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 07:37 PM)ShockValue Wrote:  Wichita st fans are freaking out at what the loss of Creighton will do to the MVC. I don't think there is any chance of being invited to this conference but I hope our school pres and AD are working on something.

Maybe reach out to St Louis--if they don't get invited to the BE, they're pretty isolated in the A-10 with Xavier (and Butler) gone, and maybe Dayton too.

The A-10 would definitely take them.

A-10 already has them, but the A-10 they joined was a top midmajor league that stretched from the Washington-Boston corridor out to Charlotte and St Louis, with Temple, Xavier, Charlotte and UMass. The A-10 after a C-7 raid is a lot less attractive. Right now, the only teams west of Duquesne are Xavier, Dayton, Butler and St Louis. St Louis could be left as the only A-10 team west of the PA-OH border, in an otherwise north Atlantic one-bid league. At that point, the A-10 doesn't look as good. The MVC would be a similar competition level and a lot less travel.

From reading multiple sources, St. Louis draws a large (maybe a majority) of its students from the East Coast. This is a large reason they choose the A-10 when leaving CUSA and maintaining that exposure is paramount.

(12-22-2012 10:01 PM)trephin Wrote:  From reading multiple sources, St. Louis draws a large (maybe a majority) of its students from the East Coast. This is a large reason they choose the A-10 when leaving CUSA and maintaining that exposure is paramount.

After St. Louis, Omaha is the second biggest source of SLU students. I suspect they would like to look east more, though.

(12-22-2012 02:53 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 01:40 PM)handdownmandown Wrote:  This guy (collegebasketballfan) is a Wichita State homer and member of their message board.

Not that that's good or bad, just thought it should be cited as a point of reference.

Of course I am, but I tried to make reasonable arguments. I didn't say we should the first choice or in the first 10 teams, just that we would be a better fit for the conference then we appear at first glance and that we should be considered when and if the conference decides to add teams.

I fully expect the conference to start with only 10, though TV may necessitate a change to 12.

So I follow Fresno and Wichita State and I will say without a doubt if the C7 doesn't take you the MWC sure as heck should. I would love to see baseball series between Fresno and Wichita State

(12-23-2012 03:27 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So I follow Fresno and Wichita State and I will say without a doubt if the C7 doesn't take you the MWC sure as heck should. I would love to see baseball series between Fresno and Wichita State

That would be awesome. Your 2008 championship was one of the best Cinderella runs of all-time, and you have continued to remain top-notch since.