(12-22-2012 02:09 AM)SecureDaBall Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 03:38 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 01:36 PM)SecureDaBall Wrote:  I think the C& will stay at 10 and the teams will be Xavier, Butler and Dayton. I was expecting VCU in the first 3 teams added but I am not sure the C7 want to add a school that has been flirting with the idea of playing FBS football. If VCU denounces its desire to play FBS football, then they will replace Dayton. I see them sticking with 10 for a a few seasons and then assessing the value of expanding.

Creighton is a top notch program what is in the top ten in attendance playing in the MVC. They average more butts in the stands than Indiana. They are a must get. 12 teams is the way to go.

Also if you're only going to 10 then why add two teams so close to each other? Xavier then no Dayton.

I understand Creighton is a better program than Dayton. My thought is it would be bad having Creighton out on an island. Take Dayton in the first go-round and then use St. Louis as a bridge to Creighton during a 2nd expansion. But after reading the SI article it makes sense going with the best programs and not worrying about markets since the new league won't have its own network.....So I would definitely take Creighton in the first 3

Creighton's not an island to Marquette, St. Louis, DePaul. It's like a 45 minute flight. Nebraska is not in Wyoming.

(12-22-2012 12:47 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I'll cook up an essay-length post on this later tonight, but I think 10 not 12, and VCU not--anybody else.

1. Too many A-10 teams at once, and the perception flips from "BU/XU/VCU to revived Big East" to "Big East is the A-10 on Steroids." That basically happened, perception-wise, when the NBE took Tulane and ECU, for 6/14 football from CUSA.

2. The media partners aren't thinking in our long term interests. The Big East needs TV exposure, and TV exposure that puts us on a par with the power conferences. Even FoxSports1 is a bit of a risk--we need to push for OTA games for the premier parts of the package.

3. We're selling "Old School" because we have no choice, and "basketball first" because it's the Big East. Selling it to recruits as much as to TV viewers. And part of that is home-and-home, round robin play.

Maybe I don't need to crank out 300 words on that.

Good points. It's a secondary or even tertiary concern, but what does the addition of any of the candidate schools bring to the new league in terms of recruiting territory? Yes, each coach and their respective staff come with their own pipelines, but footprint matters. No offense to, say, Dayton, but is adding them building up the new conference's natural advantage in Rust Belt recruiting with Xavier and Indiana already on board? Is it worth adding to that advantage, or are there diminishing returns where new talent pools become opportunity costs? You've gotta ask the same thing re: Creighton....

Go Big or Go Home.

East
Georgetown
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
Seton Hall
Providence

West
Marquette
Gonzaga
Butler
Creighton
St. Louis
DePaul

...save enough room for Notre Dame down the road.

(12-22-2012 02:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Go Big or Go Home.

East
Georgetown
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
Seton Hall
Providence

West
Marquette
Gonzaga
Butler
Creighton
St. Louis
DePaul

...save enough room for Notre Dame down the road.

No to Notre Dame.

(12-22-2012 01:25 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 12:47 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I'll cook up an essay-length post on this later tonight, but I think 10 not 12, and VCU not--anybody else.

1. Too many A-10 teams at once, and the perception flips from "BU/XU/VCU to revived Big East" to "Big East is the A-10 on Steroids." That basically happened, perception-wise, when the NBE took Tulane and ECU, for 6/14 football from CUSA.

2. The media partners aren't thinking in our long term interests. The Big East needs TV exposure, and TV exposure that puts us on a par with the power conferences. Even FoxSports1 is a bit of a risk--we need to push for OTA games for the premier parts of the package.

3. We're selling "Old School" because we have no choice, and "basketball first" because it's the Big East. Selling it to recruits as much as to TV viewers. And part of that is home-and-home, round robin play.

Maybe I don't need to crank out 300 words on that.

Good points. It's a secondary or even tertiary concern, but what does the addition of any of the candidate schools bring to the new league in terms of recruiting territory? Yes, each coach and their respective staff come with their own pipelines, but footprint matters. No offense to, say, Dayton, but is adding them building up the new conference's natural advantage in Rust Belt recruiting with Xavier and Indiana already on board? Is it worth adding to that advantage, or are there diminishing returns where new talent pools become opportunity costs? You've gotta ask the same thing re: Creighton....

I understand what you are saying in regards to Creighton, but when a program is top ten in attendance regularly thats not something you can easily dismiss. They will travel for the tourny, they will have an electric atmosphere during home games and they will help keep our play amongst the best in the country. That matters a lot too. You dont just take markets, sometimes you take the best teams available.

I'd be pretty surprised if Xavier tried to block Dayton.

(12-22-2012 02:34 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 02:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Go Big or Go Home.

East
Georgetown
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
Seton Hall
Providence

West
Marquette
Gonzaga
Butler
Creighton
St. Louis
DePaul

...save enough room for Notre Dame down the road.

No to Notre Dame.

Yeah, too bad they won't say no. And they shouldn't. Notre Dame would cement this league truly as "major" (by media perception). The money the attention, the legitimacy - ND would be HUGE.

Just realized this post should be here....

VCU is only marginally better regarding resume. They're just the trendy pick right now due to 2011.

Richmond - NCAA's = 9 since 1984, sweet 16 in 1984 and 2011. Hasn't advanced beyond that.
VCU - NCAA's = 11 since 1981, 2011 was the only time they advanced to or past the sweet 16.

Either would be a better geographic fit than Creighton. Richmond is the largest city in a state with a booming population whereas Creighton is well..... in Nebraska. All that said Richmond is still just a much better fit overall and Spiders are a really cool mascot. That's my $0.02 on the Richmond / VCU debate.

I'd do this....

West - MU, DePaul, SLU, BU, XU, Dayton
East - PC, SJU, SHU, VU, GTown, UR

This is a great geographic setup to develop / strengthen rivalries. Play all in your division twice and everybody in the opposite division once for a 16 game conference schedule. That worked great for the ACC until the a-holes decided they coveted what the old Big East had.

(12-22-2012 02:40 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Yeah, too bad they won't say no. And they shouldn't. Notre Dame would cement this league truly as "major" (by media perception). The money the attention, the legitimacy - ND would be HUGE.

I think the Catholic schools seen NDs true colors when they bolted and left the C-7 high and dry. Also, ND needs the other sports to stay in the ACC because not every school in the C-7 participate in other sports. If the new playoff in football becomes the norm, ND would need a home for their football program and seeing how ND practically plays half of their schedule against ACC teams, they mind as well just become full members.

I really don't like the idea of ND coming in and dictating the future of this conference.

(12-22-2012 02:43 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Just realized this post should be here....

VCU is only marginally better regarding resume. They're just the trendy pick right now due to 2011.

2011 definitely helps. But they're not just a Cinderella who came from nowhere, got hot and then went back to obscurity, like say George Mason. One thing about VCU that impresses me is they've been to the NCAAs under three different coaches. That's a capital P Program, not just a good coach who could get a better offer and leave.

Quote:Richmond - NCAA's = 9 since 1984, sweet 16 in 1984 and 2011. Hasn't advanced beyond that.
VCU - NCAA's = 11 since 1981, 2011 was the only time they advanced to or past the sweet 16.

Yeah, but 4 in the last 10 years, plus a CAA regular season title in 2008.

Quote: All that said Richmond is still just a much better fit overall and Spiders are a really cool mascot. That's my $0.02 on the Richmond / VCU debate.

Spiders is unique in a good way, unlike Billikens. But big public schools have advantages--back in the dawn of time, Rutgers and Temple got the initial Big East invites for their markets.

Quote:I'd do this....

West - MU, DePaul, SLU, BU, XU, Dayton
East - PC, SJU, SHU, VU, GTown, UR

This is a great geographic setup to develop / strengthen rivalries. Play all in your division twice and everybody in the opposite division once for a 16 game conference schedule. That worked great for the ACC until the a-holes decided they coveted what the old Big East had.

I'm pushing for VCU and stopping at 10--I think we should learn the lesson that taking too many midmajors at once makes you a midmajor. But taking the C-7 plus Xavier Butler and any 1-3 of VCU, Richmond, Creighton, Dayton, and St Louis and we should be okay.

(12-22-2012 02:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Go Big or Go Home.

East
Georgetown
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
Seton Hall
Providence

West
Marquette
Gonzaga
Butler
Creighton
St. Louis
DePaul

...save enough room for Notre Dame down the road.

This is perfect. If you go to 14, add VCU and Dayton.

(12-22-2012 02:43 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Just realized this post should be here....

VCU is only marginally better regarding resume. They're just the trendy pick right now due to 2011.

Richmond - NCAA's = 9 since 1984, sweet 16 in 1984 and 2011. Hasn't advanced beyond that.
VCU - NCAA's = 11 since 1981, 2011 was the only time they advanced to or past the sweet 16.

Either would be a better geographic fit than Creighton. Richmond is the largest city in a state with a booming population whereas Creighton is well..... in Nebraska. All that said Richmond is still just a much better fit overall and Spiders are a really cool mascot. That's my $0.02 on the Richmond / VCU debate.

I'd do this....

West - MU, DePaul, SLU, BU, XU, Dayton
East - PC, SJU, SHU, VU, GTown, UR

This is a great geographic setup to develop / strengthen rivalries. Play all in your division twice and everybody in the opposite division once for a 16 game conference schedule. That worked great for the ACC until the a-holes decided they coveted what the old Big East had.

1. While the Final Four did a lot for VCU's reputation we have been a good basketball program for a long time. Just because we couldn't get past the second round until recently doesn't mean we didn't have good teams. We were a #2 seed in the NCAAs one year.

2. If comparing U of R and VCU head to head you might want to check out the recent results of those games. VCU has dominated the series especially recently. 7 straight years at one point.

3. I encourage you to check out a game for both places. VCU has 24 straight sell outs as of now (7,600+ seats). U of R averages about 4,000 usually if lucky in a 9,000 seat arena. VCU's tickets are up to about 25 dollars a game vs U of R who is selling tickets for under 10 and offering free pizzas to get people in the building. Lots of people here want Creighton for its great attendance. So would you rather have the empty looking giant arena or the decent sized sold out every game arena?

4. Have you looked at U of R's mascot? I preferred the blown up spider to that thing. Take a look at our new Rodney the Ram. Pretty sweet looking.

Hey guys, Georgetown fan here. I'm okay with 10-12 teams in the league as long as we are adding teams that make the league better.

Here are my recommendations at different sizes.

10: C7 + Butler + Xavier + Creighton
12: 10 + Gonzaga + VCU

If we go past 12, I think we wait a few years and develop a league reputation and see what other schools have set themselves apart. With all due respect to St. Louis and Dayton, I don't see anyone upset if they aren't in the first cut of the league.

Its important that this league doesn't become labeled as a mid-major league and that involves having strong teams, strong recruiting, strong March success, and teams that have national cache. Butler, Xavier, and Gonzaga all have that. Creighton and VCU just need a brighter light on their programs and they can become national programs as well. I just don't see that yet with Dayton and St. Louis.

(12-22-2012 05:56 PM)RamboRowdy Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 02:43 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Just realized this post should be here....

VCU is only marginally better regarding resume. They're just the trendy pick right now due to 2011.

Richmond - NCAA's = 9 since 1984, sweet 16 in 1984 and 2011. Hasn't advanced beyond that.
VCU - NCAA's = 11 since 1981, 2011 was the only time they advanced to or past the sweet 16.

Either would be a better geographic fit than Creighton. Richmond is the largest city in a state with a booming population whereas Creighton is well..... in Nebraska. All that said Richmond is still just a much better fit overall and Spiders are a really cool mascot. That's my $0.02 on the Richmond / VCU debate.

I'd do this....

West - MU, DePaul, SLU, BU, XU, Dayton
East - PC, SJU, SHU, VU, GTown, UR

This is a great geographic setup to develop / strengthen rivalries. Play all in your division twice and everybody in the opposite division once for a 16 game conference schedule. That worked great for the ACC until the a-holes decided they coveted what the old Big East had.

1. While the Final Four did a lot for VCU's reputation we have been a good basketball program for a long time. Just because we couldn't get past the second round until recently doesn't mean we didn't have good teams. We were a #2 seed in the NCAAs one year.

2. If comparing U of R and VCU head to head you might want to check out the recent results of those games. VCU has dominated the series especially recently. 7 straight years at one point.

3. I encourage you to check out a game for both places. VCU has 24 straight sell outs as of now (7,600+ seats). U of R averages about 4,000 usually if lucky in a 9,000 seat arena. VCU's tickets are up to about 25 dollars a game vs U of R who is selling tickets for under 10 and offering free pizzas to get people in the building. Lots of people here want Creighton for its great attendance. So would you rather have the empty looking giant arena or the decent sized sold out every game arena?

4. Have you looked at U of R's mascot? I preferred the blown up spider to that thing. Take a look at our new Rodney the Ram. Pretty sweet looking.

Don't shoot the messenger, that's just the way I see it. It's more about institutional fit than it is anything else between VCU/UR. Most of those things you point out as advantages only benefit VCU, not an entire league. All that said, I'd kill for ECU to have the program that VCU has. Good luck.

(12-22-2012 06:33 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Don't shoot the messenger, that's just the way I see it. It's more about institutional fit than it is anything else between VCU/UR. Most of those things you point out as advantages only benefit VCU, not an entire league. All that said, I'd kill for ECU to have the program that VCU has. Good luck.

Well, the support in Richmond, and the consistently getting into or just missing the NCAA tournament from the CAA, indicate that the 2011 Final Four run wasn't a complete fluke. Which means that, with the Big East tag, you could reasonably expect VCU to be a tournament staple and be a Sweet 16 team a couple of times a decade. That benefits the league--tournament credits, and another strong program in the league lifts everybody.

That's how we roll in the Big East! VCU Rams, come on down!

(12-22-2012 06:33 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Don't shoot the messenger, that's just the way I see it. It's more about institutional fit than it is anything else between VCU/UR. Most of those things you point out as advantages only benefit VCU, not an entire league. All that said, I'd kill for ECU to have the program that VCU has. Good luck.

No problem man. I just think too many times people think we've just suddenly popped up. 2007 when we took down Duke in the tourney was truly a relaunching pad for us if you will. 2011 was a truly special time for VCU but it showed how a program's committment no matter how much coaching shake up it has can still do great things.

We truly struck a gem with Shaka and that's why we gave him that big contract. We're also building a new state of the art basketball practice facility. I wouldn't be surprised to see more upgrades done to Siegel Center now that we have luxury suites in. There is no plans for football in the future. That's a big reason why our AD left for Minnesota. Our move to the A10 showed we plan to focus on basketball. The CAA was becoming more and more about football which did not match our plans.

Currently we are a school who gets a lot of love at the national level due to Shaka and our recent success in the tourney. Keep in mind we knocked off WSU last year before blowing a 5 point lead to Indiana in the second round in the last 2 mins. We had the recent #1 team in the country beat. Note: We weren't in the preseason top 25 despite having #1 dead to rights. See we get enough respect for being a team that can take any other team down but we still get some snubbing.

As far as what we could do in the Big East should we move. That depends on Shaka staying here. His Havoc style has been successful for years especially in the tourney where teams get caught off guard by it. I think if you put VCU in a position where it can consistently get to the tourney(note: The CAA had 1 bid usually. This is our first year in the A10.) you are looking at a team that could be making the Sweet 16 every other year. I'm completely serious. Shaka has already recruited players being pursued by ACC and SEC teams(and other conferences). Imagine the recruiting he could do with the Big East title(or what the new conference is named)?

(12-22-2012 06:27 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  Its important that this league doesn't become labeled as a mid-major league

I agree, but VCU was just in the Final Four two years ago, and went to the dance in 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012 and was the regular season CAA champ in 2008 to boot. (I've never really had the chance before to say "to boot") So their Final Four run wasn't a complete fluke. No one's going to point to VCU in the Big East and say "Nah, nah, midmajor!" Yeah, midmajor all the way to the Final Four, beeeyotch.

Quote:and that involves having strong , strong recruiting, strong March success, and teams that have national cache. Butler, Xavier, and Gonzaga all have that. Creighton and VCU just need a brighter light on their programs and they can become national programs as well. I just don't see that yet with Dayton and St. Louis.

I'm very leery of adding anyone without rock-solid credentials, because we will face criticism and denigration. If we give the world any grounds to criticize and denigrate, our task gets 10x harder.

You can say this is short term thinking, but I believe that the first couple of years of C7 Big East play will be crucial in establishing our place in the pecking order. NCAA tournament success, in bids and in advancing, will be crucial. So we really can't afford any "developing" programs (besides St Johns, Seton Hall, Providence and DePaul.)

It was a good day to catch teams in the discussion on TV. It seemed to me that a lot of Richmond and St. Louis fans showed up at their games today disguised as empty seats.

(12-22-2012 07:53 PM)LJay Wrote:  It was a good day to catch teams in the discussion on TV. It seemed to me that a lot of Richmond and St. Louis fans showed up at their games today disguised as empty seats.

Probably a reason for that is the students went home for break. Although I guess they did everywhere and others have large crowds

(12-22-2012 08:00 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 07:53 PM)LJay Wrote:  It was a good day to catch teams in the discussion on TV. It seemed to me that a lot of Richmond and St. Louis fans showed up at their games today disguised as empty seats.

Probably a reason for that is the students went home for break. Although I guess they did everywhere and others have large crowds

See, Big East programs can fill the stands with locals.