Quote:What did the Coptic Christians do to the muslims in Egypt..

I've used the term islamisist several times, you read that as "muslims"

And that terrorist movement has been met with an absurd amount of resistance from the general population, including Muslims voluntarily acting as a form of human shields for them during their holy nights and prayers, and vice versa.

Egyptian Christians protecting Muslims

Egyptian Christians protecting Coptic Christians

Monthly Jihad Report
June, 2012 Jihad Attacks: 192
Countries: 24
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 1173
Critically Injured: 2266

Date Country City Killed Injured Description

2012.07.07 Afghanistan Chora 6 1 Three children are among six civilians blown to bits by Sunni hardliners.
2012.07.07 Afghanistan Gereshk 1 1 A child is dismantled by a Taliban bomb.
2012.07.07 Iraq Ramadi 10 38 A suicide bomber detonates in the house of a family member, killing ten relatives, most of whom were women.
2012.07.07 Nigeria Kushen 23 0 Muslim terrorists attack two Christian villages and massacre two dozen innocents.
2012.07.06 Iraq Anbar 5 9 An entire family of four, including two children, bleed to death following a suicide attack on their home.
2012.07.05 Iraq Mosul 5 20 A Shahid suicide bomber detonates inside a barber shop, sending at least five others to Allah.
2012.07.04 Pakistan Kuchlak 3 0 Lashkar-e-Jhangvi gunmen murder three Religion of Peace rivals.
2012.07.04 Afghanistan Marjeh 1 3 A woman is taken out by a Taliban roadside bomb.
2012.07.04 Pakistan Bahawalpur 1 0 A mentally-ill man is tortured, doused with petrol and burned alive by a mob angered over reports that he burned a Quran.
2012.07.04 Kenya Mandera 1 0 Somali militants shoot a 16-year-old girl several times in the chest.
2012.07.04 Nigeria Borno 2 0 Two employees at a housing complex are chased down and murdered by Boko Haram radicals.
2012.07.04 Pakistan Pasrur 2 3 A pregnant woman and her baby are shot to death by Wahhabis because they were Shia.
2012.07.04 Iraq Zubaidiyah 8 37 One child and two women are among eight dead when Sunnis detonate a bomb at a Shiite market.


Yes, probably around 5 a day. It's a big world out their and they do have a thing for everyone else besides us.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

A lot of those seem very difficult to attribute to terrorism explicitly. It's like Moore using the deaths in the Iraq and Afghanistan War in his amount of American gun deaths each year. It's intentionally missing the point of the measurement in order to make it seem worse.

I have no problem with you subtracting any you dispute.

(07-08-2012 10:16 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  NO YOU DUMMIES THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF APPLE PIE AND BASEBALL AND MUSCLE CARS AND JESUS AND GE AND TYPE II DIABETES!

F'ing ignorant moron.

And if you go almost to the bottom of that link, they list all the attacks since 9/11.

And this is about their list.

Quote:This list of terrorist attacks committed by Muslims since 9/11/01 (a rate of about four or five a day) is incomplete because not all such attacks are picked up by international news sources, even those resulting in multiple loss of life.

These are not incidents of ordinary crime involving nominal Muslims killing for money or some other non-religious motive. We only include incidents of deadly violence that can reasonably be determined to have been committed out of religious duty - as interpreted by the perpetrator.

More:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm

(07-08-2012 12:17 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

Quote:What did the Coptic Christians do to the muslims in Egypt..

I've used the term islamisist several times, you read that as "muslims"

And that terrorist movement has been met with an absurd amount of resistance from the general population, including Muslims voluntarily acting as a form of human shields for them during their holy nights and prayers, and vice versa.

Egyptian Christians protecting Muslims

Egyptian Christians protecting Coptic Christians

And after protecting them at the square they elect a government that said convert, become a dhimmi, or leave... After 9/11 we over here all held hands and sang kumbaiya (sp?) but 18 monthers later were were back to politics as usual... same thing happened in Egypt, conservatives and libertarians were smart enough to see it coming..

(07-08-2012 12:17 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

Quote:What did the Coptic Christians do to the muslims in Egypt..

I've used the term islamisist several times, you read that as "muslims"

And that terrorist movement has been met with an absurd amount of resistance from the general population, including Muslims voluntarily acting as a form of human shields for them during their holy nights and prayers, and vice versa.

Egyptian Christians protecting Muslims

Egyptian Christians protecting Coptic Christians

It would be unfair to say that the abuse of copts by muslims is uniform by all Egyptians, nor that it is dictated by Islam (and yet, they are persucuted by Muslims). Yet, it would be naive to suggest that copts are not among the most abused minority population on religious grounds on the planet, probably trailing only the abuse of Bahai by Muslims in Iran, which is dictated by religion. Egypt also ranks as the worst place to be a woman on the planet.

(07-08-2012 12:29 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-08-2012 10:16 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  NO YOU DUMMIES THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF APPLE PIE AND BASEBALL AND MUSCLE CARS AND JESUS AND GE AND TYPE II DIABETES!

F'ing ignorant moron.

You actually believe that, don't you? You believe that the average kid born in Saudi Arabia would give the slightest inkling of a sh*t about the US if it wasn't for our stance towards influencing their entire region?

Quote:It would be unfair to say that the abuse of copts by muslims is uniform by all Egyptians, nor that it is dictated by Islam (and yet, they are persucuted by Muslims). Yet, it would be naive to suggest that copts are not among the most abused minority population on religious grounds on the planet, probably trailing only the abuse of Bahai by Muslims in Iran, which is dictated by religion. Egypt also ranks as the worst place to be a woman on the planet.

I don't know about the last statement, but besides that I can't disagree too much.

Quote:And after protecting them at the square they elect a government that said convert, become a dhimmi, or leave... After 9/11 we over here all held hands and sang kumbaiya (sp?) but 18 monthers later were were back to politics as usual... same thing happened in Egypt, conservatives and libertarians were smart enough to see it coming..

Libertarians share far more in common with Liberals when it comes to international policy than they do with conservatives, so I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here.

(07-08-2012 12:47 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(07-08-2012 12:29 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-08-2012 10:16 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  NO YOU DUMMIES THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF APPLE PIE AND BASEBALL AND MUSCLE CARS AND JESUS AND GE AND TYPE II DIABETES!

F'ing ignorant moron.

You actually believe that, don't you? You believe that the average kid born in Saudi Arabia would give the slightest inkling of a sh*t about the US if it wasn't for our stance towards influencing their entire region?

Quote:It would be unfair to say that the abuse of copts by muslims is uniform by all Egyptians, nor that it is dictated by Islam (and yet, they are persucuted by Muslims). Yet, it would be naive to suggest that copts are not among the most abused minority population on religious grounds on the planet, probably trailing only the abuse of Bahai by Muslims in Iran, which is dictated by religion. Egypt also ranks as the worst place to be a woman on the planet.

I don't know about the last statement, but besides that I can't disagree too much.

Quote:And after protecting them at the square they elect a government that said convert, become a dhimmi, or leave... After 9/11 we over here all held hands and sang kumbaiya (sp?) but 18 monthers later were were back to politics as usual... same thing happened in Egypt, conservatives and libertarians were smart enough to see it coming..

Libertarians share far more in common with Liberals when it comes to international policy than they do with conservatives, so I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here.

when it comes to foreign policy the Libertarians and liberals agree on actions not on the reasons for or the results of those actions.

The liberals pushed the "Arab Spring" as a wonderful thing for the people of the middle east. The Libertarians knew what would result but don't think it's our concern..

Libertarians are not fans of the UN and their multilateral treaties written up in secret by unelected bureaucrats, Liberals think they will make a better world with those treaties.

NEOCONS PUSHED FOR THIS ARAB SPRING!!!!! This is a direct result of Bush going into Iraq. Maybe you've forgotten about those RETHUGLICANS throwing their purple finger in the air during that one State of The Union address. Boasting how they've brought Democracy to the Middle East and it will spread like wildfire. Well gueess what. They've succeeded.

(07-08-2012 03:13 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  NEOCONS PUSHED FOR THIS ARAB SPRING!!!!! This is a direct result of Bush going into Iraq. Maybe you've forgotten about those RETHUGLICANS throwing their purple finger in the air during that one State of The Union address. Boasting how they've brought Democracy to the Middle East and it will spread like wildfire. Well gueess what. They've succeeded.

As I have said for years, anyone who thought that establishing democracy in Iraq would lead to stability in the middle east was absolutely nuts.

Quote:when it comes to foreign policy the Libertarians and liberals agree on actions not on the reasons for or the results of those actions.

The liberals pushed the "Arab Spring" as a wonderful thing for the people of the middle east. The Libertarians knew what would result but don't think it's our concern..

Libertarians are not fans of the UN and their multilateral treaties written up in secret by unelected bureaucrats, Liberals think they will make a better world with those treaties.

I can agree with these statements as fairly accurate in my experiences. Still, I think it's fair to say that at least on the face of it and in their ultimate actions, Libertarians and Liberals agree on their opinions towards our military policy in most cases, admittedly often for vastly different reasons.

(07-08-2012 12:47 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

Quote:It would be unfair to say that the abuse of copts by muslims is uniform by all Egyptians, nor that it is dictated by Islam (and yet, they are persucuted by Muslims). Yet, it would be naive to suggest that copts are not among the most abused minority population on religious grounds on the planet, probably trailing only the abuse of Bahai by Muslims in Iran, which is dictated by religion. Egypt also ranks as the worst place to be a woman on the planet.

I don't know about the last statement, but besides that I can't disagree too much.

Sorry for the long post, but I didn't come up with one single post to summarize the situation...

Women: Beware of Egypt | World Affairs Journal

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/...ware-egypt Wrote:I recently gave a talk about the Arab Spring at a college in the Pacific Northwest and met a young female journalism student who said she was envious that I’ve been to Cairo. She considers herself something of an Egyptologist and can’t wait to go there herself.

She was blissfully unaware of how badly women are treated in Egypt, including foreign women like herself. I’ve heard one extreme sexual harassment horror story after another from women I know who have visited Cairo. I don’t personally know anyone who has been sexually assaulted in Egypt, but from my informal survey of female travelers there it appears the likelihood of a foreign woman experiencing extreme harassment approaches 100 percent.

Both before and after the revolution, police and military have long been accused of using rape as a political tool. Two prominent US journalists were raped in the events surrounding the Arab Spring protests. This is an issue that goes well beyond the state.

This article from 2008 is just mind-numbing:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt's sexual harassment 'cancer'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7514567.stm Wrote:SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN EGYPT
Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors
Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women
62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women
53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'
Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights

Clinton decries Egypt abuse of women | MoroccoTomorrow

http://www.moroccotomorrow.org/clinton-d...-of-women/ Wrote:“This systematic degradation of Egyptian women dishonors the revolution, disgraces the state and its uniform and is not worthy of a great people,” Clinton said in a speech at Georgetown University. In images widely seen over YouTube, helmeted troops were shown beating a veiled woman after having ripped her clothes off to reveal her bra and stomach. Other pictures circulating on social media networks that have enraged protesters include one of a military policeman looming over a sobbing elderly woman with his truncheon. “Recent events in Egypt have been particularly shocking. Women are being beaten and humiliated in the same streets where they risked their lives for the revolution only a few short months ago,” Clinton said. She denounced a “deeply troubling pattern” of military authorities and the major political parties alike keeping Egyptian women out of decision-making.

Rape and the Arab Spring

(07-08-2012 10:57 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  So clearly the answer is? More muddling with the ME business?

Backing down to every demand from Islamists would clearly not be a good precedent, but the US has to be judicious in pursuing its policies without repeating certain specific mistakes like propping up Mubarak or putting troops in Saudi Arabia for extended periods after 1992. Support for Israel will always be an irritation in the Muslim world, but it takes more than that to set off terrorist networks like al Qaeda.

(07-08-2012 03:13 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  NEOCONS PUSHED FOR THIS ARAB SPRING!!!!! This is a direct result of Bush going into Iraq. Maybe you've forgotten about those RETHUGLICANS throwing their purple finger in the air during that one State of The Union address. Boasting how they've brought Democracy to the Middle East and it will spread like wildfire. Well gueess what. They've succeeded.

True in the case of Iraq. However, Libya and Egypt happened on Obama's watch.

(07-08-2012 03:13 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  NEOCONS PUSHED FOR THIS ARAB SPRING!!!!! This is a direct result of Bush going into Iraq. Maybe you've forgotten about those RETHUGLICANS throwing their purple finger in the air during that one State of The Union address. Boasting how they've brought Democracy to the Middle East and it will spread like wildfire. Well gueess what. They've succeeded.

IMHO, it has nothing at all to do with going into Iraq, but it is a consequence of Bush administration policies, probably moreso than the Obama administration (but the Obama administration has continued down this road). The alternative path that you appear to implicitly advocate is to continue the (unsustainable) support for thuggish regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, et al. In other words, you are advocating the interventionist policies to control which brutal, oppressive, dictators stay in control and which do not. And you don't seem to address the irritation that this causes the people who have been oppressed. So, what is it that you think generates enough hatred to fuel the hatred of al Qaeda et al? The Color Purple?

I think that Ariel Sharon knew exactly what would happen when he made the decision to withdraw from Gaza. Just as both the Bush and Obama administrations knew what would happen in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood has been heir apparent in both places for 25-30 years and the only thing that (respectively, Israel or the US) could do is to decide when - not whether - to allow the dam to break.

(07-08-2012 03:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As I have said for years, anyone who thought that establishing democracy in Iraq would lead to stability in the middle east was absolutely nuts.

One would help that self-determination will eventually lead to something sustainable, if not stable. Externally propping up dicators may lead to stability, but is not sustainable indefinitely, at least not without consequences like terrorism and the (justified) resentment of entire populations.

(07-09-2012 12:12 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-08-2012 03:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As I have said for years, anyone who thought that establishing democracy in Iraq would lead to stability in the middle east was absolutely nuts.

One would help that self-determination will eventually lead to something sustainable, if not stable. Externally propping up dicators may lead to stability, but is not sustainable indefinitely, at least not without consequences like terrorism and the (justified) resentment of entire populations.

This.

(07-09-2012 05:28 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(07-09-2012 12:12 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-08-2012 03:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As I have said for years, anyone who thought that establishing democracy in Iraq would lead to stability in the middle east was absolutely nuts.

One would help that self-determination will eventually lead to something sustainable, if not stable. Externally propping up dicators may lead to stability, but is not sustainable indefinitely, at least not without consequences like terrorism and the (justified) resentment of entire populations.

This.

I agree, I do think that if we take this route then this is where our involvement in the UN/Nato can come in handy in the cases of dictators putting down true democratic movements. I don't disagree with supporting democracy, and I think that in the long run even set-backs like the electing of the Muslim Brotherhood are better than the not supporting democratic movements, I'd just like the blame to be defrayed from us. Also we should never, ever be in the business of nation building; it does nothing but promote widespread distaste for us, the costs are absurd, and it makes us a lightning rod for everyone looking for something to blame in the region.