College Football is far less of a big deal in the Northeast as it is elsewhere. I have some questions for the board and a completely thrown together, unverified, and mishmashed theory:

The Northeast went all the way up to 1950 with Army, Navy, Notre Dame, and the Ivy League schools as the main college teams in the northeast along with 2-3 future BE schools like Syracuse. Princeton won several national titles and Army-Notre Dame in the 30s had 80k show up to watch them at Yankee Stadium. So other than the academies and ND, the Ivies were the big shots there. The Northeast then had the following happen roughly around 1950:
1- The Ivies did not offer athletic scholarships and were left behind
2- As players got bigger and other schools began scholarships... Army & navy were left behind.
3- New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and the rest of New England did not have FBS-equivalent competition at their flagship universities as Rutgers had been private until recent years then. These states did not entirely identify with the remaining schools except of course Notre Dame.
4- The NFL takes the loyalty of these fans and college ball is practically an afterthought in the region.

My questions (more for the NE Big East fans)
A- Is this even close to hitting the target?
B- If not, what do you attribute it to?
C- If A isn't close, what do you attribute the region's large ND fanbase to?
D- Had they offered athletic scholarships, could the Ivy League have been much like the ACC or Big Ten as a major athletic conference?

1. Some, but not all the Ivies had scholarships; Penn, for example, was playing the likes of Penn State, Cal, Ohio State, Michigan, and Notre Dame as late as 1955.

2. A lot of Northeastern schools had scholarship football, including former IA schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, Boston University, etc. But among land grant schools, only Pennsylvania (Penn St.) and New York (Cornell) had nationally prominent schools--even Rutgers was closer to Lafayette than it was to Pitt. Flagship state schools like Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Delaware were all College Division (Div.II) teams.

Many of the schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, the Ivies, etc. did not have the stadium infrastructure to remain when the I-A/I-AA split took place in 1978. How many Southern schools were dropped down to I-AA? Not many.

3. SEC, Big 8, and Southwest Conference schools embraced unlimited scholarships when that was allowed, many Eastern schools did not. The rise in air travel allowed a kid in New Jersey to play in Florida or Michigan without having to stay close to home and join 130 of his fellow players in the depth chart.

4. Had the Ivies offered scholarships, they would be as competitive as any conference outside the Big 10 or SEC.

The Pats success has really helped high school football in New England. More towns have middle school football teams than 10 years ago, not saying New England is going to be prime recruiting area, but better than 10 years ago. If New England produces 30 D1 football players instead of 20 that would help UConn, BC and now UMass.

Pro football is obviously more popular up here, but to say college football isn't popular up here is wrong. Obviously Notre Dame is very popular with the Irish American population in New England. The Florida teams are popular here, maybe a sister, brother, or retired grandparent moved down there and people use that as an excuse to cheer for Florida or FSU.

And its hard to get a lot of people to cheer for the same teams up here. There are no schools with 50,000 undergrads, its kinda fragmented up here. UMass and UConn have about 25,000 students, and UMass has the problem of being 2 hours west of Boston. I do believe if the UMass flagship campus was close to Boston the school would have better funding.

The no scholorships did kill college sports in the Northeast. Holy Cross in the 50's was a national power in basketball (Tommy Heinsohn, Bob Cousey), Holy Cross still has a 25,000 seat stadium that is now way too big but right on the side of the highway.

The way I see It UConn has the best chance of having a big time college football program because its the only thing connecticut can call their own. If UMass is going to make it I think it has to concentrate on the Springfield and Worcester markets before Boston. Its nice to try to get a market with 4,500,0000 people but I think Springfield especially and Worcester have enough people to support UMass. Boston will come if there is any success, when Marcus Camby was at UMass, UMass was on the front page of the Boston Globe all the time. I know I'm rambling but take it for what its worth

Another problem is that many Universities in the NE did all they could to stamp out big time athletics. When the University at Buffalo was turned public and handed over to SUNY they killed a bowl worthy program (it was offered a bowl and they turned it down) and until the 90s they did not allow them back due to their emphasis on education (go figure right?). I think this hurts desire for these programs since they did not play major sports despite being major schools. Syracuse is private and I think that hurts their overall appeal despite being the only major program that stuck around (not counting Army which of course has its own constituency and is not a "NY" team). Who knows how things would have turned out if SUNY made each of its satellites have level appropriate sports at the start? If Buffalo kept their team (and other schools did as well) and they played Syracuse and other NE schools often then college football may have had a better chance.

Seriously how does the state of NY have no major public football programs for so long? That is why.

UCONN has a chance to be a huge deal in the Northeast. People forget Penn St has attendance of 100K+ and they are located right there. State of CT is still learning about college football. At some point in the future, I really can see UCONN expanding the stadium to 70K+ and get that kind of attendance. When our men's and women's basketball teams won back in 2004, the parade at Hartford, CT had over 300K people attending. People just need to see UCONN win big before embracing UCONN football. In another 8 years or so, all the kids born in CT at age of 18 would only know UCONN as a D1A program. Over time, the fanbase will grow. Our student season ticket section for football already sold out for the year and that's 4th year in the row now. Currently, we have 25k to 30K season ticket holder as a base, but we need to grow that to 50K to get 70K+ type of attendance.

The lost power conference of the northeast was the 1980s eastern indies.

Had that ever materialized (and no need to rehash why it didn't happen) it could have matched any of the power conferences of today.

Cheers,
Neil

(08-02-2011 01:24 AM)omnicarrier Wrote:  The lost power conference of the northeast was the 1980s eastern indies.

Had that ever materialized (and no need to rehash why it didn't happen) it could have matched any of the power conferences of today.

Cheers,
Neil

Had PSU stayed in the east to form an eastern based all sports conference, eastern football would be different today.

New programs will grow. UMASS just went D1A. In time, there will be new rivalries formed. It might take another 10 years, but I can see it changing with more programs upgrading to D1A and playing bigger games.

What eastern football needs right now is to develop some intense rivalries to get more local interest.

NE schools starting reallizing that athletics was runaway frieght train.
Southern schools used athletics to attract students

There are only 2 schools that matter in the North East for football. ND and Penn State.

(08-02-2011 06:21 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  There are only 2 schools that matter in the North East for football. ND and Penn State.

Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Floyd Little, John Mackey, Larry Csonka, Jim Ringo, Art Monk, Donovan McNabb, Marvin Harrison, Dwight Freeney, and Mike Williams all disagree. Oh, and Rutgers, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Boston College, Maryland, Army, Navy, and UConn also all disagree. And if Notre Dame is in the Northeast, then Cincinnati, Ohio State, Michigan, and Michigan State disagree too.

The only schools that matter in the south are Alabama, and Auburn because they win. herp derp...

(08-02-2011 12:29 AM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Another problem is that many Universities in the NE did all they could to stamp out big time athletics. When the University at Buffalo was turned public and handed over to SUNY they killed a bowl worthy program (it was offered a bowl and they turned it down) and until the 90s they did not allow them back due to their emphasis on education (go figure right?).

And you know why right?

For those that don't know, in 1958, Univ of Buffalo was invited to play in the Tangerine Bowl Game in Orlando however local bowl officials told the school that they would have to leave their 2 black players at home (i.e. only white players were allowed to play in the bowl game at that time).

Univ of Buffalo team stayed united and turned down that bowl invite and rightfully so.

Fast forward 51 years:

UCF and City of Orlando honors 1958 Univ of Buffalo Team with a "bowl trip" to Orlando for UCF vs Buffalo game.

See link to a proud ending that tarnished much of our country in decades past.

UCF and Orlando honor 1958 Buffalo Football Team

The Ivy would have fallen apart either way, like 2% of D1 athletes today are qualified to play in the Ivy League.

Northeastern football would be much different today if Joe Paterno's proposed conference of Boston College, Maryland, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, and West Virginia had come to fruition. If that timeline had played out it is safe to assume that UConn moves football up to join the conference too. The Academies could have joined to bolster TV revenue, and it wouldn't dilute the on the field product much. Notre Dame would be much more tempted to join that conference than the B1G or today's Big East. If Notre Dame didn't bite Marshall would just to get too 12 (can't think of anyone else in the footprint) and their you go the "Northeastern Conference". That is what it would have taken to save Northeast football. Although I think most teams in the Northeast are on the right track now.

(08-02-2011 12:29 AM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Another problem is that many Universities in the NE did all they could to stamp out big time athletics. When the University at Buffalo was turned public and handed over to SUNY they killed a bowl worthy program (it was offered a bowl and they turned it down) and until the 90s they did not allow them back due to their emphasis on education (go figure right?). I think this hurts desire for these programs since they did not play major sports despite being major schools. Syracuse is private and I think that hurts their overall appeal despite being the only major program that stuck around (not counting Army which of course has its own constituency and is not a "NY" team). Who knows how things would have turned out if SUNY made each of its satellites have level appropriate sports at the start? If Buffalo kept their team (and other schools did as well) and they played Syracuse and other NE schools often then college football may have had a better chance.

Seriously how does the state of NY have no major public football programs for so long? That is why.

Can't believe you don't know why Buffalo turned down the invite, but knightlight already pointed that out.

Buffalo's major problem is its name. Why not the University of New York? It sounds much more prestigious than University of New York at Buffalo. Its mascot the Bulls is pretty generic too. They should change the school name the the "University of New York" and the mascot to the "Roaring Lions".

The "University of New York, Roaring Lions" sounds like one badass school. Plus gives you a unique mascot. This would start some bad blood between UNY and PSU too.

They are too far gone now though they really shouldn't even bother. Syracuse should become a public school, this would help us quite a bit in building athletic and academic structures. We would easily become "New York's College Team" then...

(08-02-2011 08:07 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  The Ivy would have fallen apart either way, like 2% of D1 athletes today are qualified to play in the Ivy League.

My theory assumes the Ivies would have taken the approach that the strongest academic schools in the Big Ten, Pac, ACC, Big East, and Big 12 took with regards to admissions. Think how Stanford, Duke, or Northwestern do things. Had there been no change in policy though you would be correct.

Quote:Northeastern football would be much different today if Joe Paterno's proposed conference of Boston College, Maryland, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, and West Virginia had come to fruition. If that timeline had played out it is safe to assume that UConn moves football up to join the conference too. The Academies could have joined to bolster TV revenue, and it wouldn't dilute the on the field product much. Notre Dame would be much more tempted to join that conference than the B1G or today's Big East. If Notre Dame didn't bite Marshall would just to get too 12 (can't think of anyone else in the footprint) and their you go the "Northeastern Conference". That is what it would have taken to save Northeast football. Although I think most teams in the Northeast are on the right track now.

I agree here. I was simply looking 30 years earlier.

The schools in the east had radically different agendas, which still haven't been totally resolved. This kept them from bonding together in a conference, which is why we find outselves in the position we're in at present. None of the bigger schools were willing to compromise to make it happen, and the less powerful eastern institutions weren't going to make the compromises that would have defeated their purpose for joining any eastern conference...

(08-02-2011 08:07 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  The Ivy would have fallen apart either way, like 2% of D1 athletes today are qualified to play in the Ivy League.

Northeastern football would be much different today if Joe Paterno's proposed conference of Boston College, Maryland, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, and West Virginia had come to fruition. If that timeline had played out it is safe to assume that UConn moves football up to join the conference too. The Academies could have joined to bolster TV revenue, and it wouldn't dilute the on the field product much. Notre Dame would be much more tempted to join that conference than the B1G or today's Big East. If Notre Dame didn't bite Marshall would just to get too 12 (can't think of anyone else in the footprint) and their you go the "Northeastern Conference". That is what it would have taken to save Northeast football. Although I think most teams in the Northeast are on the right track now.

From the day he arrived as PSU president in 1983, Bryce Jordan was committed to taking them to the Big Ten where he believed they were a better fit than with their historic rivals in the East. Had they become a member of the Big East in 1981, they simply would have left within the decade.

(08-01-2011 07:52 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  1. Some, but not all the Ivies had scholarships; Penn, for example, was playing the likes of Penn State, Cal, Ohio State, Michigan, and Notre Dame as late as 1955.

2. A lot of Northeastern schools had scholarship football, including former IA schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, Boston University, etc. But among land grant schools, only Pennsylvania (Penn St.) and New York (Cornell) had nationally prominent schools--even Rutgers was closer to Lafayette than it was to Pitt. Flagship state schools like Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Delaware were all College Division (Div.II) teams.

Many of the schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, the Ivies, etc. did not have the stadium infrastructure to remain when the I-A/I-AA split took place in 1978. How many Southern schools were dropped down to I-AA? Not many.

3. SEC, Big 8, and Southwest Conference schools embraced unlimited scholarships when that was allowed, many Eastern schools did not. The rise in air travel allowed a kid in New Jersey to play in Florida or Michigan without having to stay close to home and join 130 of his fellow players in the depth chart.

4. Had the Ivies offered scholarships, they would be as competitive as any conference outside the Big 10 or SEC.

Good synopsis, but I do not think number "4." holds much water. In todays climate with the weak-knee NCAA oversight, no way the Ivies would be competetive. They absolutely would not compromise academic integrity for the ability to win.

In reality Penn State & perhaps Pitt & Syracuse were N-eastern FB for the 3 decades following the 50s, but PSU made a tactical competitive, maybe not financial, error in joinning the Big Ten IMHO. WVUs surge started around 1980 with some good success now and again before that.

(08-02-2011 10:54 AM)Tigeer Wrote:  

(08-01-2011 07:52 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  1. Some, but not all the Ivies had scholarships; Penn, for example, was playing the likes of Penn State, Cal, Ohio State, Michigan, and Notre Dame as late as 1955.

2. A lot of Northeastern schools had scholarship football, including former IA schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, Boston University, etc. But among land grant schools, only Pennsylvania (Penn St.) and New York (Cornell) had nationally prominent schools--even Rutgers was closer to Lafayette than it was to Pitt. Flagship state schools like Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Delaware were all College Division (Div.II) teams.

Many of the schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, the Ivies, etc. did not have the stadium infrastructure to remain when the I-A/I-AA split took place in 1978. How many Southern schools were dropped down to I-AA? Not many.

3. SEC, Big 8, and Southwest Conference schools embraced unlimited scholarships when that was allowed, many Eastern schools did not. The rise in air travel allowed a kid in New Jersey to play in Florida or Michigan without having to stay close to home and join 130 of his fellow players in the depth chart.

4. Had the Ivies offered scholarships, they would be as competitive as any conference outside the Big 10 or SEC.

Good synopsis, but I do not think number "4." holds much water. In todays climate with the weak-knee NCAA oversight, no way the Ivies would be competetive. They absolutely would not compromise academic integrity for the ability to win.

In reality Penn State & perhaps Pitt & Syracuse were N-eastern FB for the 3 decades following the 50s, but PSU made a tactical competitive, maybe not financial, error in joinning the Big Ten IMHO. WVUs surge started around 1980 with some good success now and again before that.

Penn State's record since starting Big Ten play 18 years ago: 154-68

Penn State's record in their last 18 years as an independent: 162-52-2

Ranked finishes in the last 18 indy years: 15

Ranked finishes in the Big Ten: 12

Bowl record in the last 18 years as an indy: 9-7

Bowl record in the Big Ten: 10-4


Penn State looks to have had a slight dropoff since joining the Big Ten, but you'd be hardpressed to find many people who would say it was a tactical competitive error to join.

I agree with Hokie. Had Paterno's all sports conference taken hold it would not have mattered because at some point the B1G or the ACC would have snatched them up by the end of the decade anyway.

People forget that Paterno's plan called for the following schools to form a conference: Penn State, Pitt, West Virginia, Boston College, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, Army, Navy and perhaps Maryland (depending on who you believe).

There was no talk whatsoever of schools like Miami, Florida State, Virginia Tech, South Carolina (who was an indie at the time), etc. None. And there was CERTAINLY no talk about UConn any more than we talk about schools like Maine, New Hampshire or Vermont today.

How would a league comprised of schools like Rutgers (of 1980, not today), Temple, Navy, Army, etc., have possibly held off the B1G once it decided to expand? Even the pre-Florida State ACC would have had too much might for the league to stick together.

Also, Paterno's plan was that the schools would share virtually none of its football proceeds but would equally share the hoops revs. Well, that works fine for a football centric school like Penn State which was averaging 75-80K for football and who is on television all the time (remember, teams would have kept their TV rights separate from the rest of the league) and 3-5K for basketball but Syracuse was averaging 40-45K for football and 30-32K for basketball. Why on earth would they ever agree to that? Further, how on earth would that type of league have ever survived? I suppose everyone else could have capitualted to Paterno's terms and simply given them the keys to the farm but I think we're seeing right now with the whole B12 saga just how well it works when one partner has so much more power and wealth than everyone else in the league.

Personally, I think college football is a lot more popular in the Northeast than a lot of Southerners would like to admit. It is not as popular here as it is in the South but I think that is due more to the respective schools' proximity to urban centers than it is any other sort of geography.

Unfortunately for the Big East, many of its schools are located in NFL cities where they are forced to compete as the football equivalent of AAA baseball in major league towns. That's the mentality here and you will never defeat that mindset.

Who in Cincinnati is going to spend their discretionary income on the Bearcats over the Bengals? Who in Pittsburgh is going to save up for a possible trip to the Champs Sports Bowl or even a Sugar Bowl when they could spend that money on a Super Bowl trip? It's just not going to happen.

Also, the Northeastern teams in the NFL tend to have some of its largest and most passionate fan bases. I mean when you start lining up fan bases like the Steelers, Eagles, Patriots, Giants, Jets, Redskins, etc., those are all HUGE, passionate fan bases. Who else in the NFL has fan bases like any of those teams? I would say Chicago, Green Bay and Dallas and that's about it.

Then you throw in other pro sports options and there is only so much money to go around. I know where I live (Pittsburgh), Pitt (and everyone else) comes after the Steelers. That is followed (after a huge gulf) by the Penguins and then Pirates - in that order. Then comes Penn State, Notre Dame, West Virginia and Ohio State - in that order.

When you look at it, it's pretty amazing that Pitt averaged 52K fans a game last year. That is pretty popular, IMHO. Pitt's greatest problem is that is surrounded on all sides by HUGE fan bases (PSU to the East and North, OSU to the West, and WVU to the South) that do not compete directly with NFL/MLB/NHL competition. That and the fact that Pitt plays in a HUGE off campus NFL stadium with bright yellow seats. Pitt can draw 52K for a game and it looks like there are 20K fans there. Schools like Rutgers and UConn draw 40K for a game and it looks like 100K fans are there.

(08-02-2011 11:16 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  

(08-02-2011 10:54 AM)Tigeer Wrote:  

(08-01-2011 07:52 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  1. Some, but not all the Ivies had scholarships; Penn, for example, was playing the likes of Penn State, Cal, Ohio State, Michigan, and Notre Dame as late as 1955.

2. A lot of Northeastern schools had scholarship football, including former IA schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, Boston University, etc. But among land grant schools, only Pennsylvania (Penn St.) and New York (Cornell) had nationally prominent schools--even Rutgers was closer to Lafayette than it was to Pitt. Flagship state schools like Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Delaware were all College Division (Div.II) teams.

Many of the schools like Colgate, Holy Cross, the Ivies, etc. did not have the stadium infrastructure to remain when the I-A/I-AA split took place in 1978. How many Southern schools were dropped down to I-AA? Not many.

3. SEC, Big 8, and Southwest Conference schools embraced unlimited scholarships when that was allowed, many Eastern schools did not. The rise in air travel allowed a kid in New Jersey to play in Florida or Michigan without having to stay close to home and join 130 of his fellow players in the depth chart.

4. Had the Ivies offered scholarships, they would be as competitive as any conference outside the Big 10 or SEC.

Good synopsis, but I do not think number "4." holds much water. In todays climate with the weak-knee NCAA oversight, no way the Ivies would be competetive. They absolutely would not compromise academic integrity for the ability to win.

In reality Penn State & perhaps Pitt & Syracuse were N-eastern FB for the 3 decades following the 50s, but PSU made a tactical competitive, maybe not financial, error in joinning the Big Ten IMHO. WVUs surge started around 1980 with some good success now and again before that.

Penn State's record since starting Big Ten play 18 years ago: 154-68

Penn State's record in their last 18 years as an independent: 162-52-2

Ranked finishes in the last 18 indy years: 15

Ranked finishes in the Big Ten: 12

Bowl record in the last 18 years as an indy: 9-7

Bowl record in the Big Ten: 10-4


Penn State looks to have had a slight dropoff since joining the Big Ten, but you'd be hardpressed to find many people who would say it was a tactical competitive error to join.

They dominated the landscape of the East before they left. Leaving left the door open for the likes of VT and WVU. In addition they have only sniffed one possible NC since then and that was the first year in the Big Ten, I believe. If not for Southern bias they probably would have had several more added to the ones they had prior to joining the Big Ten. My eyes see a different PSU than the one before they joined the Big Ten, but my eyes are weary. I will give you that.