(05-29-2011 06:36 PM)General Mike Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 10:27 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Mike, if Rutgers and UConn had a NATURAL rivalry, they'd have a century of history to point to...

Give 'em a few more decades, and they can build such. But there's not enough history for a TRUE rivalry. In The BEast, only Pitt-WVU and UC-UofL qualify. WVU, SU, and Rutgers all have a lot of history with each other. But I don't think any considers any of the other schools RIVALS, not even SU-WVU (who play for the Schwartzwalder Trophy annually)...

Rutgers and UConn are a natural rivalry like Kentucky and Louisville are. Rutgers has played UConn more times than Kentucky has played Louisville.

OK. I'll give you Rutgers-UConn...

Neil, I think Syracuse stayed in the spotlight due to media hopes for a share of the northeastern audience. But as Syracuse declined, so did the size of the audience watching. IMO it took the network executives a while to realize that...

(05-29-2011 08:39 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 06:36 PM)General Mike Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 10:27 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Mike, if Rutgers and UConn had a NATURAL rivalry, they'd have a century of history to point to...

Give 'em a few more decades, and they can build such. But there's not enough history for a TRUE rivalry. In The BEast, only Pitt-WVU and UC-UofL qualify. WVU, SU, and Rutgers all have a lot of history with each other. But I don't think any considers any of the other schools RIVALS, not even SU-WVU (who play for the Schwartzwalder Trophy annually)...

Rutgers and UConn are a natural rivalry like Kentucky and Louisville are. Rutgers has played UConn more times than Kentucky has played Louisville.

OK. I'll give you Rutgers-UConn...

Neil, I think Syracuse stayed in the spotlight due to media hopes for a share of the northeastern audience. But as Syracuse declined, so did the size of the audience watching. IMO it took the network executives a while to realize that...

Not disagreeing with you here, but WVU-Pitt stayed a rivalry even during down periods for them - and there were many of those as well. I believe SU-VT would have kept building one had VT remained in the league regardless with WVU being a secondary one for VT and BC being a secondary one for SU.

But the overall point was that the circumstances under which it began are not the surest way to build rivalries since SU-VT would not be a "natural" one. It came about more because they filled the void when Miami went on probation.

Pitt-WVU is a natural rivalry. UL-UC is a natural rivalry. Pitt-UC and WVU-UL can grow as secondary rivalries due to the histories between the two cities in one and the states in the other.

There is nothing natural about ECU-SU, or ECU-RU, or ECU-UConn. There isn't even a manufactured story that can be used to help build a rivalry in any of these scenarios. It's like BC-Clemson.

Cheers,
Neil

Neil, you see who Rutgers, Cuse and UConn consider teams to add is far different than reality. The Northeast is heavily population but in reality is a tiny region in regards to universities. The Big 10 and the ACC do not want you as members. B10 and ACC teams do not want to join the Big East. To the North there are no U. S. options and just Canada. So expansion lies South, Southwest and West. So at the end of the day, if you want the Big East tp prosper, you will have accept adding South, Southwest and West to the footprint.

(05-30-2011 09:13 AM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 08:39 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 06:36 PM)General Mike Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 10:27 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Mike, if Rutgers and UConn had a NATURAL rivalry, they'd have a century of history to point to...

Give 'em a few more decades, and they can build such. But there's not enough history for a TRUE rivalry. In The BEast, only Pitt-WVU and UC-UofL qualify. WVU, SU, and Rutgers all have a lot of history with each other. But I don't think any considers any of the other schools RIVALS, not even SU-WVU (who play for the Schwartzwalder Trophy annually)...

Rutgers and UConn are a natural rivalry like Kentucky and Louisville are. Rutgers has played UConn more times than Kentucky has played Louisville.

OK. I'll give you Rutgers-UConn...

Neil, I think Syracuse stayed in the spotlight due to media hopes for a share of the northeastern audience. But as Syracuse declined, so did the size of the audience watching. IMO it took the network executives a while to realize that...

Not disagreeing with you here, but WVU-Pitt stayed a rivalry even during down periods for them - and there were many of those as well. I believe SU-VT would have kept building one had VT remained in the league regardless with WVU being a secondary one for VT and BC being a secondary one for SU.

But the overall point was that the circumstances under which it began are not the surest way to build rivalries since SU-VT would not be a "natural" one. It came about more because they filled the void when Miami went on probation.

Pitt-WVU is a natural rivalry. UL-UC is a natural rivalry. Pitt-UC and WVU-UL can grow as secondary rivalries due to the histories between the two cities in one and the states in the other.

There is nothing natural about ECU-SU, or ECU-RU, or ECU-UConn. There isn't even a manufactured story that can be used to help build a rivalry in any of these scenarios. It's like BC-Clemson.

Cheers,
Neil

There's a lot of loaded history in that statement...

(05-30-2011 09:38 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Neil, you see who Rutgers, Cuse and UConn consider teams to add is far different than reality. The Northeast is heavily population but in reality is a tiny region in regards to universities. The Big 10 and the ACC do not want you as members. B10 and ACC teams do not want to join the Big East. To the North there are no U. S. options and just Canada. So expansion lies South, Southwest and West. So at the end of the day, if you want the Big East tp prosper, you will have accept adding South, Southwest and West to the footprint.

I will have to accept what the membership votes upon. But don't think that WVU and UL will simply get their way either. There will be compromise. There always have been and always will be.

WVU, RU, and Pitt may have joined together to stop the Nova upgrade, but don't think RU and Pitt will rollover for WVU and just take (for example here - not saying WVU wants this, but if they did), ECU, SMU, and Memphis either.

Those three additions are not in Pitt's and RU's best interests.

Assuming BYU says "No", common sense says it's in the conference's best interests that the league do everything it can to explore the following options - another Florida school, another Texas school, and another northeastern or mid-atlantic (in either Maryland or Virginia/DC area) school.

Cheers,
Neil

(05-29-2011 12:10 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 11:32 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  When I think of a rivalry, I think of 2 schools with a long shared history of classic brutal battles. All you need to do is say a couple of words - or a phrase - to put the rivalry to mind. Like "3rd Saturday in October" or "Backyard Brawl". You say those things to just about anyone, and they'll know it's Alabama-Tennessee or WVU-Pitt that you're talking about. THAT is a rivalry...

No arguments from me on this. That's how I view a rivalry game as well. Unfortunately, those types of rivalries just don't exist in the BE outside of WVU-Pitt and UL-UC and even those rivalries are not always mentioned as being in the best of the best. I think there was just an article where the WVU-Pitt rivalry was listed as one of the most overrated.

Not saying I believe that, but there are those who do.

Quote:It's probably true that the process can be accelerated by putting the games on rivalry week. But it will take time to see if the fans at each school buy the rivalry. Any of 'em that get one sided probably won't develop. Each team has to win some games to develop the rivalry. The rest of the nation will know that we're artificially creating these rivals. But in the long run, that's not that big a deal...

I think of the SU/VT "rivalry" in the Big East that came about when Miami went on probation. Not a lot of history when the Big East began, but it became an important one in the eyes of TV due to the Miami probation. Similar to the BC/VT game now in the ACC with Miami and FSU not performing as expected.

TV can accelerate some of these rivalries and playing them and advertising them as rivalries during Thanksgiving Week can help as well. If we want what is best for the Big East we will be looking at manufacturing some rivalries. But you can't manufacture what doesn't make "story" sense either.

RU-UConn can possibly be manufactured - the battle for NYC. A stretch for sure, but plausible.

SU-BC can be manufactured NY vs MA. Or the battle of the Ivy wannabes.

UConn-BC the battle for New England.

RU-BC the battle of NYC vs. Boston

RU-ECU?
SU-ECU?
UConn-ECU?

All a tougher sell no matter the fact that ECU may bring more to the football table than BC.

Cheers,
Neil

I think you guys are looking at things the wrong way. Yes, the BE is going to have to follow the ACC model of manufactoring rivalries. However, East Carolina/Syracuse certainly offers the same type of possibilites as BC/Va Tech. In fact I see those two scenarios as being almost mirrors of each other with ECU/VA Tech and SU/BC being similar type football schols. Bottom line is that the networks will "produce" a rivalry between two teams as long as the have some sort of small streak of playing important games against one another. However to the larger point, ECU does make a bit more sense in the BE because it could develop a very natural rivalries with Louisville and USF and of course it already has its semi-annual game with WVU. Lousiville/ECU in particular seems like a natural game.

Also, ECU travles well so schools like UC and Pitt could also expect fairly large groups of Pirate fans making the various trips. I've always felt school's that have fans that travel to aways games make a much more interesting/tense atmosphere for the home team.

Jackson

(05-30-2011 11:44 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 12:10 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 11:32 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  When I think of a rivalry, I think of 2 schools with a long shared history of classic brutal battles. All you need to do is say a couple of words - or a phrase - to put the rivalry to mind. Like "3rd Saturday in October" or "Backyard Brawl". You say those things to just about anyone, and they'll know it's Alabama-Tennessee or WVU-Pitt that you're talking about. THAT is a rivalry...

No arguments from me on this. That's how I view a rivalry game as well. Unfortunately, those types of rivalries just don't exist in the BE outside of WVU-Pitt and UL-UC and even those rivalries are not always mentioned as being in the best of the best. I think there was just an article where the WVU-Pitt rivalry was listed as one of the most overrated.

Not saying I believe that, but there are those who do.

Quote:It's probably true that the process can be accelerated by putting the games on rivalry week. But it will take time to see if the fans at each school buy the rivalry. Any of 'em that get one sided probably won't develop. Each team has to win some games to develop the rivalry. The rest of the nation will know that we're artificially creating these rivals. But in the long run, that's not that big a deal...

I think of the SU/VT "rivalry" in the Big East that came about when Miami went on probation. Not a lot of history when the Big East began, but it became an important one in the eyes of TV due to the Miami probation. Similar to the BC/VT game now in the ACC with Miami and FSU not performing as expected.

TV can accelerate some of these rivalries and playing them and advertising them as rivalries during Thanksgiving Week can help as well. If we want what is best for the Big East we will be looking at manufacturing some rivalries. But you can't manufacture what doesn't make "story" sense either.

RU-UConn can possibly be manufactured - the battle for NYC. A stretch for sure, but plausible.

SU-BC can be manufactured NY vs MA. Or the battle of the Ivy wannabes.

UConn-BC the battle for New England.

RU-BC the battle of NYC vs. Boston

RU-ECU?
SU-ECU?
UConn-ECU?

All a tougher sell no matter the fact that ECU may bring more to the football table than BC.

Cheers,
Neil

I think you guys are looking at things the wrong way. Yes, the BE is going to have to follow the ACC model of manufactoring rivalries. However, East Carolina/Syracuse certainly offers the same type of possibilites as BC/Va Tech. In fact I see those two scenarios as being almost mirrors of each other with ECU/VA Tech and SU/BC being similar type football schols. Bottom line is that the networks will "produce" a rivalry between two teams as long as the have some sort of small streak of playing important games against one another. However to the larger point, ECU does make a bit more sense in the BE because it could develop a very natural rivalries with Louisville and USF and of course it already has its semi-annual game with WVU. Lousiville/ECU in particular seems like a natural game.

Also, ECU travles well so schools like UC and Pitt could also expect fairly large groups of Pirate fans making the various trips. I've always felt school's that have fans that travel to aways games make a much more interesting/tense atmosphere for the home team.

Jackson

I agree with you on all of this ECU would become instant rivals for some of us....plus the Purple Bowl of ECU vs TCU should be a hit.

Jackson, how would you rank schools most to least in #'s and excitement when visiting for a WVU for a game?

(05-30-2011 11:44 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 12:10 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(05-29-2011 11:32 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  When I think of a rivalry, I think of 2 schools with a long shared history of classic brutal battles. All you need to do is say a couple of words - or a phrase - to put the rivalry to mind. Like "3rd Saturday in October" or "Backyard Brawl". You say those things to just about anyone, and they'll know it's Alabama-Tennessee or WVU-Pitt that you're talking about. THAT is a rivalry...

No arguments from me on this. That's how I view a rivalry game as well. Unfortunately, those types of rivalries just don't exist in the BE outside of WVU-Pitt and UL-UC and even those rivalries are not always mentioned as being in the best of the best. I think there was just an article where the WVU-Pitt rivalry was listed as one of the most overrated.

Not saying I believe that, but there are those who do.

Quote:It's probably true that the process can be accelerated by putting the games on rivalry week. But it will take time to see if the fans at each school buy the rivalry. Any of 'em that get one sided probably won't develop. Each team has to win some games to develop the rivalry. The rest of the nation will know that we're artificially creating these rivals. But in the long run, that's not that big a deal...

I think of the SU/VT "rivalry" in the Big East that came about when Miami went on probation. Not a lot of history when the Big East began, but it became an important one in the eyes of TV due to the Miami probation. Similar to the BC/VT game now in the ACC with Miami and FSU not performing as expected.

TV can accelerate some of these rivalries and playing them and advertising them as rivalries during Thanksgiving Week can help as well. If we want what is best for the Big East we will be looking at manufacturing some rivalries. But you can't manufacture what doesn't make "story" sense either.

RU-UConn can possibly be manufactured - the battle for NYC. A stretch for sure, but plausible.

SU-BC can be manufactured NY vs MA. Or the battle of the Ivy wannabes.

UConn-BC the battle for New England.

RU-BC the battle of NYC vs. Boston

RU-ECU?
SU-ECU?
UConn-ECU?

All a tougher sell no matter the fact that ECU may bring more to the football table than BC.

Cheers,
Neil

I think you guys are looking at things the wrong way. Yes, the BE is going to have to follow the ACC model of manufactoring rivalries. However, East Carolina/Syracuse certainly offers the same type of possibilites as BC/Va Tech. In fact I see those two scenarios as being almost mirrors of each other with ECU/VA Tech and SU/BC being similar type football schols. Bottom line is that the networks will "produce" a rivalry between two teams as long as the have some sort of small streak of playing important games against one another.

As mentioned already, the SU/VT and BC/VT "rivalries" came about due to downturns in performances by Miami in the first and FSU and Miami in the second.

What downturn is going to happen to create SU/ECU? UConn/ECU? RU/ECU?

Quote:However to the larger point, ECU does make a bit more sense in the BE because it could develop a very natural rivalries with Louisville and USF and of course it already has its semi-annual game with WVU. Lousiville/ECU in particular seems like a natural game.

That's one of my main points. The league can't simply expand to cater to "more" rivalries for WVU and UL and be a healthy league. WVU already has Pitt and SU and developing ones with UL, USF, UC, and probably soon TCU.

Quote:Also, ECU travles well so schools like UC and Pitt could also expect fairly large groups of Pirate fans making the various trips. I've always felt school's that have fans that travel to aways games make a much more interesting/tense atmosphere for the home team.

They travel well to bowls games and will likely travel well to WVU, UL, and USF. But in our games with them, they didn't travel all that well to the Dome.

I honestly don't know what the solution is. But I think part of the reason why the football schools are seemingly split is that there is no easy solution.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:That's one of my main points. The league can't simply expand to cater to "more" rivalries for WVU and UL and be a healthy league. WVU already has Pitt and SU and developing ones with UL, USF, UC, and probably soon TCU.

-- I see what your saying Neil. What I meant was that ECU would not be on a "rivalry island" like BC in the ACC or USF/TCU with us. As for the geography question, I think the future of the league is moving (or has moved) south so the Louisville and WVU fan bases will feel more comfortable with the added teams.

Would Syracuse fans be more excited to watch a Saturday afternoon game against Nova or East Carolina? Any interest in Army which would would offer the geographic angle you seem to be lookin for, but certainly not the quality of football

Quote:Jackson, how would you rank schools most to least in #'s and excitement when visiting for a WVU for a game?

For games in Morgantown
Pitt brings the most of course...Panther fans don't even need to get off the interstate to come to WVU
#2 Lousville
#3 UC
#4 Rutgers
USF, Uconn and Syracuse bring almost no one

Maryland and Va Tech of course bring huge crowds. ECU is nice. James Madison brought a nice crowd one year. Not trying to bash the fans of other schools on here but, Auburn brought more fans to Morgantown on a Thursday night then USF, Uconn and Syracuse have ever brought to WVU.


Jackson

(05-30-2011 01:10 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  I honestly don't know what the solution is. But I think part of the reason why the football schools are seemingly split is that there is no easy solution.

Neil, let me make one minor revision. There's no solution that all the football schools can easily agree upon. That is the problem. There are presently 8 schools, soon to be 9, and each one has its own vision of the future...

(05-30-2011 02:10 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  

Quote:That's one of my main points. The league can't simply expand to cater to "more" rivalries for WVU and UL and be a healthy league. WVU already has Pitt and SU and developing ones with UL, USF, UC, and probably soon TCU.

-- I see what your saying Neil. What I meant was that ECU would not be on a "rivalry island" like BC in the ACC or USF/TCU with us. As for the geography question, I think the future of the league is moving (or has moved) south so the Louisville and WVU fan bases will feel more comfortable with the added teams.

I recognize the fact that the league is heading south/southwest - which is why another team from Florida and another team from Texas make sense since they will remove TCU and USF from the island.

But I still feel that the obstacle to getting to 12 is the third team. This would be a no-brainer if the teams were Miami, BC, and Houston. But that isn't happening.

Quote:Would Syracuse fans be more excited to watch a Saturday afternoon game against Nova or East Carolina? Any interest in Army which would would offer the geographic angle you seem to be lookin for, but certainly not the quality of football.

I would prefer ECU myself, but I'd have to say the average SU football fan wouldn't want ECU, Nova, or even Army - although we want to schedule an OOC series with Army. I think Navy is probably the most acceptable of the northeastern options. But that isn't happening either.

Someone PM'd me an interesting thought. Why not take BYU for SU, Houston or SMU for TCU, and either ECU or UCF for USF. BYU-SU would probably be an easier sell than SU-ECU but I still have to rap my head around that one for a while longer.

Anyway, the main reason why I have mentioned this lately is basically to try and show that expansion to 12 isn't as easy a thing as some believe. A lot of thought has to go into it.

So I don't mind the league taking another year to try and get it right.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:I would prefer ECU myself, but I'd have to say the average SU football fan wouldn't want ECU, Nova, or even Army - although we want to schedule an OOC series with Army. I think Navy is probably the most acceptable of the northeastern options. But that isn't happening either.

Someone PM'd me an interesting thought. Why not take BYU for SU, Houston or SMU for TCU, and either ECU or UCF for USF. BYU-SU would probably be an easier sell than SU-ECU but I still have to rap my head around that one for a while longer.

Anyway, the main reason why I have mentioned this lately is basically to try and show that expansion to 12 isn't as easy a thing as some believe. A lot of thought has to go into it.

So I don't mind the league taking another year to try and get it right.

It seems to me that Nova is coming. I can't imagine a school isn't going to be able to figure out how to add 13k seats to a staduim when so many dollars are at stake long term. Maybe Pitt, RU and WVU may be holding things up as some sort of bargining chip. Perhaps assurances of going to 12 in the future? The rift is about more then Nova IMO

If BYU wants to come aboard, they would have to be in. That would have to be a slame dunk. It would also leave UCF, ECU and Houston for the last spot and I would imagine Houston would get the nod.

But if BYU isn't interested, finding #12 is going to be VERY interesting

Jackson

Would Nova be ready to move up by the tile the new TV contract takes effect? Obviously if they arent then I really dont see us going to 12.
Im not sure that we can convice BYU to come in, they will try to see how it works oit as indy first. But either way 10 or 12 those next 1-3 teams are not getting in before the new TV contact takes effect

I would not be surprised if Syracuse and Texas Christian become a rivalry. There are natural similarities and differences that actually draw the two together:

Both are the only private schools in the football side of the Big East
Both are populated by students from well-to-do families
Both offer excellent academic programs
The New York - Texas/Oldline Power State-Newline Power State dichotomy (readily made for TV - can't do this with Florida as FL is largely New Yorkers who have moved south)
Both have very good football histories
Both draw their recruits and students from a varied pool as compared to a state university
Both have coaches that are determined to make their respective teams top notch (a storm is brewing) and neither seems likely to head out to greener pastures anytime soon.
Neither has a "natural" enemy right now (in conference) - Natural enemy is the hated rival that makes you spit out a bad taste form your mouth at the mere thought of the opposing team (WVA/Pitt, UL/UC)

(05-31-2011 11:42 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  I would not be surprised if Syracuse and Texas Christian become a rivalry. There are natural similarities and differences that actually draw the two together:

Both are the only private schools in the football side of the Big East
Both are populated by students from well-to-do families
Both offer excellent academic programs
The New York - Texas/Oldline Power State-Newline Power State dichotomy (readily made for TV - can't do this with Florida as FL is largely New Yorkers who have moved south)
Both have very good football histories
Both draw their recruits and students from a varied pool as compared to a state university
Both have coaches that are determined to make their respective teams top notch (a storm is brewing) and neither seems likely to head out to greener pastures anytime soon.
Neither has a "natural" enemy right now (in conference) - Natural enemy is the hated rival that makes you spit out a bad taste form your mouth at the mere thought of the opposing team (WVA/Pitt, UL/UC)

Agree with all of that. But this assumes that TCU remains on an island, which I am not assuming will happen.

Cheers,
Neil

Rivals are also teams that beat each other up on a regular basis. If the matchup becomes one sided, it won't become a rivalry...

Actually Louisville has huge rivalaries with Memphis and Southern Miss.

(05-31-2011 12:54 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Actually Louisville has huge rivalaries with Memphis and Southern Miss.

You haven't dominated those teams historically tho.10-18-1 against Southern Miss, 23-19 against Memphis. You've dominated them recently, but they've had their success against you too.

All of this expansion talk is fun, but I have a hard time seeing what the incentive is for the Big East even to go to 10 much less 12. There's a reason why the only consensus came together around Villanova.

Expanding to 10 has some merit, but expanding to 12 is hard to fathom under any circumstances in the foreseeable future.

Expansion is for the long haul. For decades & beyond. Regardless of how ECU is doing for the moment, they are in a market that is dominated by the ACC & always will be. That's what the Big East has to compete with if they take on ECU - trying to get attention with 1 BE team in a 4 team ACC market. When ECU is struggling - as they have been badly at times in the recent past (only 4 winning seasons in the past decade) - why is anyone in North Carolina paying attention to the Big East outside the immediate ECU community regardless of how good a job they do putting fans in the seats?

It's great that ECU has wona couple of CUSA titles, but they've lost 3 bowl games in a row & 5 out of 6 in the past decade.

Bill Marsh your assumption on ECU is wrong. UK dominated the Louisville market in 1970s controling about 75% of it and 90% of the State of Kentucky. Today Louisville controls 85% of its TV market and 35% or 40% of the State of KY's market. Things change. I think you have an agenda, it seems to me that by the time ECU would enter Big East football, they would exceed UConn significantly in football attendance. So since UConn has no real competation in the college ranks, why can UConn not draw 50,000 plus fans. Looks like the good people of Conn. do not care much for UConn football.