No, we're not talking about france.

http://americanthinker.com/blog/2010/12/..._a_ye.html

I think my wife needs a teaching job in IL. Yeesh. That's about 8 times what she makes.

I'd like to see the range and numbers from other states. What most young people don't understand is that teachers get paid what they do because they work a lot less than everyone else. I don't know the schedule of every state's summer break, but in NC teachers get most of June, all of July and half of August off. That's 2 months vacation before adding on Xmas, spring break, thanksgiving and scattered holidays throughout the yr. One of my math professors in college (who was an absolutely awesome teacher) got into a discussion about her salary with the class (who started the conversation, not the prof). I'm pretty sure her salary was somewhere around 40K before including benefits. The class was all taken aback, as if she was living on nothing (she was not the chief breadwinner). She then surprised me by calmly explaining that she only worked for like 6 months. She got most of May, all of June, all of July and nearly all of August off. Then she got 2 weeks in December, plus she didn't teach a winter term class in January, which gave her that whole month off. The you can factor in spring break (full week), fall break + thanksgiving (which equals one week) and a few other assorted days. Add that all up and the woman was working for like half a year.

That article is thin on background, and big on outrage.

Are the teacher overpaid? I wouldn't know because that article doesn't talk about qualifications, degrees, coaching and extra curicular activies, tenure and the other factors that lead to increased salary in a school district. It's a hit piece, nothing more.

And those of you that think that a teaching job is 9am-3pm, 9months a year are grossly uninformed. Add all the hours committed to teaching, and the numbers of your average teacher are not more or less impressive than a salaryman.

I don't take issue with what we give teachers in terms of pay and benefits. I question what we expect in return.

I'm actually in favor of paying teachers substantially more (my laundry list of things I'd change about government includes replacing about 99% of what the Department of Education does with a $3,000/student payment to go directly to teachers' salaries). But I'd also give them back some authority that the courts have taken away, and once that is done I'd impose a lot higher performance bar than currently exists.

One thing that really does need to change about our education system is that we need to get rid of about 90% of our administrators and get them back into the classroom teaching. OK, probably not 90%, but a lot of them. And I wouldn't mind starting out with the idea that it's 90% and seeing what happens when we look closer.

(12-17-2010 12:16 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  That article is thin on background, and big on outrage.

Are the teacher overpaid? I wouldn't know because that article doesn't talk about qualifications, degrees, coaching and extra curicular activies, tenure and the other factors that lead to increased salary in a school district. It's a hit piece, nothing more.

And those of you that think that a teaching job is 9am-3pm, 9months a year are grossly uninformed. Add all the hours committed to teaching, and the numbers of your average teacher are not more or less impressive than a salaryman.

I understand this point. Good teachers work hard. But 14K making over $100K?

Personally, I don't care what their credentials are. We've become a nation of credentialled aristocracy (not my term) people w/ pieces of paper who feel they have the right to control the rest. And teachers are at the forefront of that.

And it's a protectionist racket.

I care what supply/demand is. That's what determines salary.

(12-17-2010 12:21 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't take issue with what we give teachers in terms of pay and benefits. I question what we expect in return.

I'm actually in favor of paying teachers substantially more (my laundry list of things I'd change about government includes replacing about 99% of what the Department of Education does with a $3,000/student payment to go directly to teachers' salaries). But I'd also give them back some authority that the courts have taken away, and once that is done I'd impose a lot higher performance bar than currently exists.

One thing that really does need to change about our education system is that we need to get rid of about 90% of our administrators and get them back into the classroom teaching. OK, probably not 90%, but a lot of them. And I wouldn't mind starting out with the idea that it's 90% and seeing what happens when we look closer.

I agree until you get to 90% of administrators and putting them back into classrooms because those that need to be gone have no teaching background. My targets would be the diversity counselors, behavior specialists, etc that exist on the federal level. Canada has done a fantastic job with federal monitoring and aid without federal interference.

I hope the teacher's in California don't see that story because then they'll want more. There was once a time when unions were needed to protect employees from being abused and ripped off. Now the pendulum has swung the other way and the employees are abusing and ripping off their employers. Either way, the salaries of those teachers are obscene, especially given their success rate.

(12-17-2010 01:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 12:16 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  That article is thin on background, and big on outrage.

Are the teacher overpaid? I wouldn't know because that article doesn't talk about qualifications, degrees, coaching and extra curicular activies, tenure and the other factors that lead to increased salary in a school district. It's a hit piece, nothing more.

And those of you that think that a teaching job is 9am-3pm, 9months a year are grossly uninformed. Add all the hours committed to teaching, and the numbers of your average teacher are not more or less impressive than a salaryman.

I understand this point. Good teachers work hard. But 14K making over $100K?

Personally, I don't care what their credentials are. We've become a nation of credentialled aristocracy (not my term) people w/ pieces of paper who feel they have the right to control the rest. And teachers are at the forefront of that.

And it's a protectionist racket.

I care what supply/demand is. That's what determines salary.

This.

Licencing and credentials are mostly created by those seeking to limit competition. Nothing says that I cant fix a toilet, cut someones hair or manicure their nails, wire a electrical wall receptacle or even stitch sutures of a bleeding cut as well as someone that has a licence to do these things. I have no problem with voluntary certification of trades. I do however reject governmental intervention into the marketplace in this regard.

For the record, there is some question over the validity of the original assessment. Someone looked at the same database independently, and couldn't find the same high salaries.

(12-18-2010 01:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 01:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 12:16 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  That article is thin on background, and big on outrage.

Are the teacher overpaid? I wouldn't know because that article doesn't talk about qualifications, degrees, coaching and extra curicular activies, tenure and the other factors that lead to increased salary in a school district. It's a hit piece, nothing more.

And those of you that think that a teaching job is 9am-3pm, 9months a year are grossly uninformed. Add all the hours committed to teaching, and the numbers of your average teacher are not more or less impressive than a salaryman.

I understand this point. Good teachers work hard. But 14K making over $100K?

Personally, I don't care what their credentials are. We've become a nation of credentialled aristocracy (not my term) people w/ pieces of paper who feel they have the right to control the rest. And teachers are at the forefront of that.

And it's a protectionist racket.

I care what supply/demand is. That's what determines salary.

This.

Licencing and credentials are mostly created by those seeking to limit competition. Nothing says that I cant fix a toilet, cut someones hair or manicure their nails, wire a electrical wall receptacle or even stitch sutures of a bleeding cut as well as someone that has a licence to do these things. I have no problem with voluntary certification of trades. I do however reject governmental intervention into the marketplace in this regard.

just curious but do you have a problem with driver's licenses? I know its not exactly the same as a professional license. However, your logic would apply to DL's as well. Just because I dont have a DL doesnt mean I dont know how to drive a car. Once again, I'm just curious. Not attacking anything you said in the previous post.

My sister is an art teacher in Ohio, has a master's degree and 10 years of experience (she is now tenured). She makes $35K. She volunteers 2 nights a week after school to have an "art club," where kids stay after school and get an opportunity to do larger/more complicated art projects to develop their skills.

No idea how districts in Illinois are paying that, but I would have to guess that it is few and far between across the state, and even less likely across the United States.

They start out in Columbia County, Ga with a Master's at about 36K. My buddy is up to about 50K as a SS teacher, AD, head football and baseball coach. He's only been a teacher for about 4 years.

(12-18-2010 01:27 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(12-18-2010 01:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 01:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 12:16 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  That article is thin on background, and big on outrage.

Are the teacher overpaid? I wouldn't know because that article doesn't talk about qualifications, degrees, coaching and extra curicular activies, tenure and the other factors that lead to increased salary in a school district. It's a hit piece, nothing more.

And those of you that think that a teaching job is 9am-3pm, 9months a year are grossly uninformed. Add all the hours committed to teaching, and the numbers of your average teacher are not more or less impressive than a salaryman.

I understand this point. Good teachers work hard. But 14K making over $100K?

Personally, I don't care what their credentials are. We've become a nation of credentialled aristocracy (not my term) people w/ pieces of paper who feel they have the right to control the rest. And teachers are at the forefront of that.

And it's a protectionist racket.

I care what supply/demand is. That's what determines salary.

This.

Licencing and credentials are mostly created by those seeking to limit competition. Nothing says that I cant fix a toilet, cut someones hair or manicure their nails, wire a electrical wall receptacle or even stitch sutures of a bleeding cut as well as someone that has a licence to do these things. I have no problem with voluntary certification of trades. I do however reject governmental intervention into the marketplace in this regard.

just curious but do you have a problem with driver's licenses? I know its not exactly the same as a professional license. However, your logic would apply to DL's as well. Just because I dont have a DL doesnt mean I dont know how to drive a car. Once again, I'm just curious. Not attacking anything you said in the previous post.

Yes...but...I have no problem with insurance carriers demanding that their clients show competence in operation of a vehicle and I have no problem with banks demanding insurance coverage when financing a vehicle purchase. Both of these organizations have a vested interest in seeing that they are doing business with competent drivers.

The obvious next question is...What about someone that owns their vehicle and refuses to insure it? What type of market force could be used get them to voluntarily comply? Well...One would think that the risk of litigation in the case of an accident would be sufficient. Of course, that might not be the case. In cases where someone injured another party and did not have insurance, I have no problem with the court system making them personally pay restitution to the injured party almost to the point of slavery and prohibiting them from operation of a vehicle again.

No matter what system we choose...there will always be drivers that are incompetent behind wheels of cars. I just would rather see highway safety be driven by the marketplace than by government.

(12-20-2010 11:49 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(12-18-2010 01:27 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(12-18-2010 01:02 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 01:54 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-17-2010 12:16 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  That article is thin on background, and big on outrage.

Are the teacher overpaid? I wouldn't know because that article doesn't talk about qualifications, degrees, coaching and extra curicular activies, tenure and the other factors that lead to increased salary in a school district. It's a hit piece, nothing more.

And those of you that think that a teaching job is 9am-3pm, 9months a year are grossly uninformed. Add all the hours committed to teaching, and the numbers of your average teacher are not more or less impressive than a salaryman.

I understand this point. Good teachers work hard. But 14K making over $100K?

Personally, I don't care what their credentials are. We've become a nation of credentialled aristocracy (not my term) people w/ pieces of paper who feel they have the right to control the rest. And teachers are at the forefront of that.

And it's a protectionist racket.

I care what supply/demand is. That's what determines salary.

This.

Licencing and credentials are mostly created by those seeking to limit competition. Nothing says that I cant fix a toilet, cut someones hair or manicure their nails, wire a electrical wall receptacle or even stitch sutures of a bleeding cut as well as someone that has a licence to do these things. I have no problem with voluntary certification of trades. I do however reject governmental intervention into the marketplace in this regard.

just curious but do you have a problem with driver's licenses? I know its not exactly the same as a professional license. However, your logic would apply to DL's as well. Just because I dont have a DL doesnt mean I dont know how to drive a car. Once again, I'm just curious. Not attacking anything you said in the previous post.

Yes...but...I have no problem with insurance carriers demanding that their clients show competence in operation of a vehicle and I have no problem with banks demanding insurance coverage when financing a vehicle purchase. Both of these organizations have a vested interest in seeing that they are doing business with competent drivers.

The obvious next question is...What about someone that owns their vehicle and refuses to insure it? What type of market force could be used get them to voluntarily comply? Well...One would think that the risk of litigation in the case of an accident would be sufficient. Of course, that might not be the case. In cases where someone injured another party and did not have insurance, I have no problem with the court system making them personally pay restitution to the injured party almost to the point of slavery and prohibiting them from operation of a vehicle again.

No matter what system we choose...there will always be drivers that are incompetent behind wheels of cars. I just would rather see highway safety be driven by the marketplace than by government.

For me personally, I don't have a problem w/ DL in general. My given is that the primary job of gov't is to protect its citizens from harm by others. Obviously the main thing is from foreign attack.

But that can include regulations and licensing. Drivers Ed and licensing requires people to know something about motor vehicle operations and regulations. It improves the driving of nearly every 16 year old, and likely everyone older than that. Exceptions are anecdotal (Dale Earnhardt Jr, who grew up around cars). Taking a risk that someone will behave irrationally, and drive w/o insurance and experience, is not a good risk. MPAI, so you will have plenty of people driving like that. And the harm often cannot be undone, even w/ near-slavery consequences.

Similarly, I expcet my MD to be licensed. I expect regulations in place to mean food is manufactured safely.

Any of these can grow to become burdensome, w/ no real protection for citizens. I'm against that. And while gov't bureaucrats are usually smart enough to offer some lip -service for their new "and improved" rules, they are usually easy to see through. Really, some very obvious, basic rules take care of the vast majority of problems.

Do I expect my barber to be licensed? I think a license is a good thing, but my barber is not likely to harm me w/ a bad haircut. Thus, the real answer here is, let unlicensed barbers exist, but insist that people know whether they are licensed or unlicensed, and let the market sort it out.

For the record, there is some question over the validity of the original assessment. Someone looked at the same database independently, and couldn't find the same high salaries.



So why would you originally post something like that without that disclaimer.


btw
God Bless those teachers. Hard job. Travis Tritt should write a song about the hard working teacher. Helping raise kid's in an ever demanding society. The majority of you couldn't handle it. Hell I would work for a baby sitters salary. I average 20 kid's an hour. 4.50 a kid. 40 hours a week. Baby sitter doesn't have to get Jimmy Switchblade to understand photosynthesis either.

Interesting article to throw for Fo's POV.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40592329/?gt1=43001

(12-20-2010 12:47 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  For the record, there is some question over the validity of the original assessment. Someone looked at the same database independently, and couldn't find the same high salaries.



So why would you originally post something like that without that disclaimer.

Because the comment came after I made the first post. Duh.

Quote: God Bless those teachers. Hard job. Travis Tritt should write a song about the hard working teacher. Helping raise kid's in an ever demanding society. The majority of you couldn't handle it. Hell I would work for a baby's sitter salary. I average 20 kid's an hour. 2.50 a kid. 40 hours a week. Baby sitter doesn't have to get Jimmy Switchblade to understand photosynthesis either.

Feel free to quit.

BTW, have I ever mentioned that we homeschool? Yeah, we pay all those taxes, and still have to take the time and money to educate our kids.

No you have never mentioned that you homeschool. Shocking!

Holy Shnitke's

An adult baby sitter should expect 8-12 dollars an hour.

http://childcare.about.com/od/occasional...rrates.htm