...and the honorable congressman from Iowa still puts his foot in his mouth.

It's a great story though, and quite true!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/09/24/c...tml?hpt=T1

Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

Democrats don't have time to extend tax cuts, but they got time to waste our time and money on bringing in a comedian to joke about imigration reform. With 10% unemployment Obama, Pelosi and Reid are the joke here.

This was done to get cameras in the hearing room to help the members of Congress who brought him there to get on camera.

Before TV coverage of hearings, the members just sent their staff members to sit on the dais and ask the questions. And they didn't have stunty "witnesses."

There may have been a time when hearings weren't a waste of time and money. But that time has passed. But then again, maybe they should do this kind of thing more often - make The Senate to face up to its own ludicrousness in the way it runs itself and the country.

Though, I will say that 3/4 the elected officials who pontificate in committee hearings and the Sunday morning talk shows are less clever and less well-read than Colbert, and they're nowhere near as entertaining.

If teens and 20 somethings want to care about Congress -- tell them to look at their first real paycheck when they get it. If they don't care after that, they are a lost cause.

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

It's a shame, because unions provided a powerful service once upon a time. The American worker needs someone to talk for them in the same way the Chamber of Commerce speaks for business and the Unions speak for....well, themselves.

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

No, not true. It really isn't.

Number 1, the only country in Latin America that is affected by NAFTA is Mexico. There's an argument regarding Mexico, but not "Latin America" as a whole.

Number 2, even the Mexico argument fails if you understand how world markets work. If Mexican produce didn't come here, it would go somewhere in the world stream of commerce. Since produce is highly fungible (in reality, subject to storage/transportation cost and spoilage, but not much else), the Mexican produce in the stream of commerce would lower the world price in any event. That in turn would reduce the ability of US farmers to sell overseas at a price, and put downward pressure on prices in the domestic market. So you pretty much end up in the same place.

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

Please don't treat all Unions as if they represent farm workers ok.

I would call myself rather anti union but even I support a union and wages for people doing dangerous physical labor.

Perhaps if Teachers unions in New Jersey were willing to forgo their 5% pay increase and kick in 1.5% of their pay for healthcare at a time when people are losing jobs left and right then everyone ou're trying to push under the 'union' umbrella would be worthy of support.

(09-25-2010 01:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

No, not true. It really isn't.

Number 1, the only country in Latin America that is affected by NAFTA is Mexico. There's an argument regarding Mexico, but not "Latin America" as a whole.

Number 2, even the Mexico argument fails if you understand how world markets work. If Mexican produce didn't come here, it would go somewhere in the world stream of commerce. Since produce is highly fungible (in reality, subject to storage/transportation cost and spoilage, but not much else), the Mexican produce in the stream of commerce would lower the world price in any event. That in turn would reduce the ability of US farmers to sell overseas at a price, and put downward pressure on prices in the domestic market. So you pretty much end up in the same place.

1) You're spot on about NAFTA, I was more talking about the umbrealla of free trade agreements we have.

But while grain is considered fungible, fruit is not. Fruit has such a short live for freshness that its price is highly proportional to geography.

Why do you think crab costs more in Minnesota than Baltimore even though the cost of living is lower here?

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

I agree it "should" not be the responsibility of the government to get between the employer/employee contract. However...The government does not see it that way...ie..Minimum Wage.

These people who get all "warm and fuzzy" over migrants fail to understand 2 things. 1...The migrants are living a much better lifestyle in the US than they were in Mexico.(poverty is relative) 2. The cost of those vegetables would skyrocket without this labor and lead to reducing the demand for them. Loss of demand = Loss of jobs. In effect by raising the wages to $15 an hour...you do more harm than good.

(09-25-2010 11:53 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

Please don't treat all Unions as if they represent farm workers ok.

I would call myself rather anti union but even I support a union and wages for people doing dangerous physical labor.

Perhaps if Teachers unions in New Jersey were willing to forgo their 5% pay increase and kick in 1.5% of their pay for healthcare at a time when people are losing jobs left and right then everyone ou're trying to push under the 'union' umbrella would be worthy of support.

I have no problem with collective bargaining. I also have no problem with an employer choosing not to participate in it.

(09-25-2010 01:42 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-24-2010 11:04 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Our government is nothing more than a mockery of its former self.

The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

It's a shame, because unions provided a powerful service once upon a time. The American worker needs someone to talk for them in the same way the Chamber of Commerce speaks for business and the Unions speak for....well, themselves.

The CoC relies on the success of the companies. Unions don't really give a rat's ass about the company, just their own power. Ever seen people leave a union shop? They're not wearing "Ford", "GM", etc., hats. They're wearing "Local 421, etc." hats. When your loyalty is to the union, and NOT the company providing you with a paycheck, chances are you're not that good of a worker. The union goes away, you'll still have a job if you're a good worker. The company goes away, you're f'ed because, between the two, they're the only ones that produce a product.

(09-26-2010 09:24 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  2. The cost of those vegetables would skyrocket without this labor and lead to reducing the demand for them. Loss of demand = Loss of jobs. In effect by raising the wages to $15 an hour...you do more harm than good.

Not true. No illegal labor and higher wages would have a minor effect on retail prices.

http://www.cis.org/ProducePrices-Without...armworkers

Meat packing raids and new legal hires and higher wages proved the same for retail prices of meat.

http://www.cis.org/2006SwiftRaids

(09-26-2010 11:06 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:42 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 07:04 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  The sad thing is the assumption on the left that 'these are not jobs Americans would do' when, in fact the whole truth is not 'these are not jobs Americans would do for 3$ an hour.. Pay someone 15$ an hour and you would have quite a few takers.

NAFTA floods the US with cheap produce from :atin America driving the price down, 'forcing' farmers to get the price of their product down, forcing latin american wages on American Farms...

And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

It's a shame, because unions provided a powerful service once upon a time. The American worker needs someone to talk for them in the same way the Chamber of Commerce speaks for business and the Unions speak for....well, themselves.

The CoC relies on the success of the companies. Unions don't really give a rat's ass about the company, just their own power. Ever seen people leave a union shop? They're not wearing "Ford", "GM", etc., hats. They're wearing "Local 421, etc." hats. When your loyalty is to the union, and NOT the company providing you with a paycheck, chances are you're not that good of a worker. The union goes away, you'll still have a job if you're a good worker. The company goes away, you're f'ed because, between the two, they're the only ones that produce a product.

Don't disagree. Unions have become monsters. I don't agree that it has always been that way though. From the 50's till today, most definitely. With that said, it would be nice if the American worker had someone as powerful as the C of C to lobby on their behalf with their interest at heart since politics at their heart are governed by the almighty dollar.

(09-26-2010 11:27 AM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(09-26-2010 11:06 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:42 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

It's a shame, because unions provided a powerful service once upon a time. The American worker needs someone to talk for them in the same way the Chamber of Commerce speaks for business and the Unions speak for....well, themselves.

The CoC relies on the success of the companies. Unions don't really give a rat's ass about the company, just their own power. Ever seen people leave a union shop? They're not wearing "Ford", "GM", etc., hats. They're wearing "Local 421, etc." hats. When your loyalty is to the union, and NOT the company providing you with a paycheck, chances are you're not that good of a worker. The union goes away, you'll still have a job if you're a good worker. The company goes away, you're f'ed because, between the two, they're the only ones that produce a product.

Either way Bull is wrong. You CAN'T pay $15 dollars and full benefits for farm jobs, or Americans wouldn't be able to afford bread, corn, or much of anything else. But, what do I know... I'm still loopy on percs from surgery.

Horse Droppings... I never said 15$ an hour I said don't artificially depress the wage with illegal labor.

Remember when we were being told those jobs in the poulty plants were jobs that Americans wouldn't do? what happened when they got raided?

When you're off the percs realize that migrant harvesters are not generally picking wheat (bread price unaffected), or corn (same as wheat, harvested by machine). The big hit would be fruits, which cant easily be machine harvested.

(09-26-2010 12:45 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-26-2010 11:06 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:42 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:06 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  And yet, the GOP and conservatives are all for getting rid of the Unions and the REASON WAGES WOULD BE 15 an hour. With Benefits. And yet, it's the GOP and conservatives who want to gut the ways to get $15 an hour.

But, it's great to fence sit, isn't it?

It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

It's a shame, because unions provided a powerful service once upon a time. The American worker needs someone to talk for them in the same way the Chamber of Commerce speaks for business and the Unions speak for....well, themselves.

The CoC relies on the success of the companies. Unions don't really give a rat's ass about the company, just their own power. Ever seen people leave a union shop? They're not wearing "Ford", "GM", etc., hats. They're wearing "Local 421, etc." hats. When your loyalty is to the union, and NOT the company providing you with a paycheck, chances are you're not that good of a worker. The union goes away, you'll still have a job if you're a good worker. The company goes away, you're f'ed because, between the two, they're the only ones that produce a product.

Don't disagree. Unions have become monsters. I don't agree that it has always been that way though. From the 50's till today, most definitely. With that said, it would be nice if the American worker had someone as powerful as the C of C to lobby on their behalf with their interest at heart since politics at their heart are governed by the almighty dollar.

YOu don't think the SEIU is as powerful as the C of C...

(09-26-2010 08:30 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Remember when we were being told those jobs in the poulty plants were jobs that Americans wouldn't do? what happened when they got raided?

For those interested, see my second link from post #19 above,

(09-26-2010 08:32 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(09-26-2010 12:45 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-26-2010 11:06 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:42 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(09-25-2010 01:37 PM)Rebel Wrote:  It's not the government's responsibility to get between an employee and employer's contract. We don't have many unions down South. We seem to do pretty well. Matter of fact, many jobs are moving here. I can think of a bigass Boeing plant being built in Charleston right now.

....and unions suck. They don't give a damn about the worker anymore. They care about their power structure.

It's a shame, because unions provided a powerful service once upon a time. The American worker needs someone to talk for them in the same way the Chamber of Commerce speaks for business and the Unions speak for....well, themselves.

The CoC relies on the success of the companies. Unions don't really give a rat's ass about the company, just their own power. Ever seen people leave a union shop? They're not wearing "Ford", "GM", etc., hats. They're wearing "Local 421, etc." hats. When your loyalty is to the union, and NOT the company providing you with a paycheck, chances are you're not that good of a worker. The union goes away, you'll still have a job if you're a good worker. The company goes away, you're f'ed because, between the two, they're the only ones that produce a product.

Don't disagree. Unions have become monsters. I don't agree that it has always been that way though. From the 50's till today, most definitely. With that said, it would be nice if the American worker had someone as powerful as the C of C to lobby on their behalf with their interest at heart since politics at their heart are governed by the almighty dollar.

YOu don't think the SEIU is as powerful as the C of C...

I didn't say that. What I said was that the American Worker doesnt have anyone as powerful as the C of C to lobby for them. I don't contend that the SEIU speaks for the American Worker, but rather they speak for themselves and their own interests.