I don't even know what to make of the Heisman award, and if the people who vote even know what they are supposed to be voting for.

As far as controversial winners, if you are going to put Ware on the list, than you have to put Ty Detmer on there too.

Hey ! Where is Doug Flutie on that list ???

I wonder if there was EVER a Heisman winner that got dreafted lower ?

Flutie won no matter where he played, which just goes to show you that the NFL isn't as smart as it thinks...

(09-20-2010 12:22 PM)BirdsEyeVU Wrote:  Hey ! Where is Doug Flutie on that list ???

I wonder if there was EVER a Heisman winner that got dreafted lower ?

Charlie Ward, undrafted.

(09-18-2010 04:08 PM)General Mike Wrote:  I don't even know what to make of the Heisman award, and if the people who vote even know what they are supposed to be voting for.

As far as controversial winners, if you are going to put Ware on the list, than you have to put Ty Detmer on there too.

Detmer actually won the award before his final game was to be played. The Heisman was announced on December 1st, 1990 and BYU had a game at Hawai'i late that night.

They promptly got tuned up by the Rainbow Warriors 59-28. I'm pretty sure Detmer got picked multiple times in the game.

http://www.heisman.com/winners/t-detmer90.php

(09-18-2010 09:32 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(09-17-2010 09:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2010 03:11 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  1956. The Notre Dame hype machine has produced a few unworthy Heisman winners but none more so than Hornung. He was a great player, but the Irish went 2-8. Any of the next four players in the voting - Johnny Majors from Tennessee, Tom McDonald and Jerry Tubbs from Oklahoma or Syracuse's Jim Brown, who finished FIFTH - would have been more deserving.

I'd only trust this coming from someone who was alive then and personally remembers that season. It's easy to look at numbers 55 years later and scratch our heads, but we don't understand the context of that campaign.

Funny you say that. Back in the early 80's I worked for an old guy that played with Hornung. He said Hornung was the biggest blowhard, self promoter you would ever meet. He said when they went into a restaurant after a game in high school that Hornung would get pi$$ed if everyone there didn't acknowledge that he had just arrived.
I know I never saw the guy play a down of football in college or the pros but that says all I need to know about what kind of guy Hornung was. If Notre Dame went 2-8 you can d@mn well believe Hornung was still getting his.
CJ

On a tangential note, every law student that takes a federal tax class will end up reading Hornung v. Commissioner, which essentially showed that Hornung enjoyed using creative accounting on his tax returns. Take it FWIW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornung_v._Commissioner

(09-18-2010 09:32 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(09-17-2010 09:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2010 03:11 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  1956. The Notre Dame hype machine has produced a few unworthy Heisman winners but none more so than Hornung. He was a great player, but the Irish went 2-8. Any of the next four players in the voting - Johnny Majors from Tennessee, Tom McDonald and Jerry Tubbs from Oklahoma or Syracuse's Jim Brown, who finished FIFTH - would have been more deserving.

I'd only trust this coming from someone who was alive then and personally remembers that season. It's easy to look at numbers 55 years later and scratch our heads, but we don't understand the context of that campaign.

Funny you say that. Back in the early 80's I worked for an old guy that played with Hornung. He said Hornung was the biggest blowhard, self promoter you would ever meet. He said when they went into a restaurant after a game in high school that Hornung would get pi$$ed if everyone there didn't acknowledge that he had just arrived.
I know I never saw the guy play a down of football in college or the pros but that says all I need to know about what kind of guy Hornung was. If Notre Dame went 2-8 you can d@mn well believe Hornung was still getting his.
CJ

Still is. Had his own table at the Wisconsin State Fair, trying to sell his autograph.

(09-20-2010 12:36 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Flutie won no matter where he played, which just goes to show you that the NFL isn't as smart as it thinks...

Come on. Flutie had his chances in the NFL, he just didn't produce.

(09-21-2010 01:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-20-2010 12:36 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Flutie won no matter where he played, which just goes to show you that the NFL isn't as smart as it thinks...

Come on. Flutie had his chances in the NFL, he just didn't produce.

He arguably kept the team in Buffalo. His 1st season they were 1-3 when he came in as a starter and the success that team had spurred negotiations to get completed on a new 30 year lease for the team. They haven't made the playoff since then.

OTOH, Doug was a divisive figure in the locker room at times. He had some spats with teammates and coaches. The coaching staff's inability to pick a consistent starter between him and Rob Johnson harmed those teams.

Flutie's CFL records stand for themselves, and the only reason he went to Canada to play was because he couldn't get a chance in the NFL...

Hornung is clearly the most notable name on that list, and rightly so. If he was on any other two-win team he would have not seen the light of day at the Downtown Athletic Club. To a lesser extent, Tim Brown was overrated as well as was Charlie Ward.

Randy Moss was not eligible for the Heisman because the voters eliminated I-AA schools from the voting in the late 1980's, which is why it's become a BCS-only award of late: does anyone really think Andy Dalton (TCU) is going to get significant voting buzz even though his numbers stand up with any QB in the nation?

(09-21-2010 03:47 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Randy Moss was not eligible for the Heisman because the voters eliminated I-AA schools from the voting in the late 1980's, which is why it's become a BCS-only award of late: does anyone really think Andy Dalton (TCU) is going to get significant voting buzz even though his numbers stand up with any QB in the nation?

I think Dalton will get considerable support. He seems to be on the lips of many national media pundits when it comes to the Heisman. He has a good chance at being in New York, though it can be argued that Kellen Moore might be ahead of him in line.

(09-21-2010 02:28 PM)mattsarz Wrote:  

(09-21-2010 01:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-20-2010 12:36 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Flutie won no matter where he played, which just goes to show you that the NFL isn't as smart as it thinks...

Come on. Flutie had his chances in the NFL, he just didn't produce.

He arguably kept the team in Buffalo. His 1st season they were 1-3 when he came in as a starter and the success that team had spurred negotiations to get completed on a new 30 year lease for the team. They haven't made the playoff since then.

Perhaps - he did have a pretty decent stint (nothing special, but decent) during 98-99, but that was it.

As for CFL records, i care nothing for them. It's like having a AAA league record in pro baseball.

(09-21-2010 04:40 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-21-2010 02:28 PM)mattsarz Wrote:  

(09-21-2010 01:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-20-2010 12:36 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Flutie won no matter where he played, which just goes to show you that the NFL isn't as smart as it thinks...

Come on. Flutie had his chances in the NFL, he just didn't produce.

He arguably kept the team in Buffalo. His 1st season they were 1-3 when he came in as a starter and the success that team had spurred negotiations to get completed on a new 30 year lease for the team. They haven't made the playoff since then.

Perhaps - he did have a pretty decent stint (nothing special, but decent) during 98-99, but that was it.

As for CFL records, i care nothing for them. It's like having a AAA league record in pro baseball.

Don't watch the CFL, do you? Great game. In fact, its a better game than the NFL, but we are used to seeing 4 down football in the US. 12 players on a wider field with only 3 downs opens up the game significantly. But for the silly no-yard penalties, its extremely fun to watch.

As for the talent level of the QBs, its mixed. A stronger arm is much more important than an accurate arm in the CFL because of field size. Guys like Moon, Garcia and Flutie proved they could play in any league. On the other hand, some NFL starters/long time backups have really struggled in Canada.

As for overall talent, tough to say. There are clearly some CFL guys who could play in the NFL. Each year a number of CFL guys make NFL rosters. Cameron Wake of the Dolphins is having a pretty good year. However, the game is so different that attributes don't really translate between leagues. If you watch the game enough, you come to appreciate the CFL guys are pretty talented in their own ways, they simply would be miscast in today's NFL game.

(09-17-2010 06:32 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  I disagree with Andre Ware not winning. He was a great college QB.

Agreed. Anthony Thompson wasn't even the best Thompson in the Big 10 that year. Darrell at Minnesota was probably a better back. Anthony wasn't very shifty. He got the ball a lot because Indiana had little talent.

(09-21-2010 04:40 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Perhaps - he did have a pretty decent stint (nothing special, but decent) during 98-99, but that was it.

Similar to Buffalo in '98... in '88 in New England, the Pats started 2-4 and lost 45-3 to Green Bay in Week 6. Flutie then ran off a 7-2 record (including blowing out Chicago at Foxboro) after replacing the injured Grogan and Eason. Flutie's numbers may have sucked, but he was the heart and brains behind a sensible ball-control offense built around the now forgotten John Stephens. And in one of his losses (at Indy), he led the Pats 70 yds in the last 2 minutes, but "Jason Staurovsky" missed a chip shot FG. In Week 16, the Pats needed a win to clinch a playoff spot, but Flutie was replaced by Eason and they lost at Denver.

Anyway, the story was that because Flutie was a replacement player during the '87 strike, his teammates the following year didn't like him, so they put Eason back in when he got healthy. The New England hierarchy back then was a basketcase, so other factors may have been involved too. After Flutie left, the Patriots were playing the awful Marc Wilson and went 1-15 and 2-14, and no one was going to the games (partly because fans thought Flutie, the local kid and fan favorite, got a raw deal; partly because the owners were d-bags and were clueless).

(09-21-2010 10:45 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(09-21-2010 04:40 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  As for CFL records, i care nothing for them. It's like having a AAA league record in pro baseball.

Don't watch the CFL, do you? Great game. In fact, its a better game than the NFL, but we are used to seeing 4 down football in the US. 12 players on a wider field with only 3 downs opens up the game significantly. But for the silly no-yard penalties, its extremely fun to watch.

As for the talent level of the QBs, its mixed.

Ok, you lost me right there. The CFL game may be fun and exciting to watch: i was in Montreal for a week in August and watched 3 games on the TV, it was pretty fun (or maybe the off-season football drought just made it seem fun).

But the talent level is clearly and obviously inferior to the NFL. No one denies that.

That wasn't always the case, quo. Warren Moon also came out of the CFL, as did Joe Kapp and quite a few others in days gone bye. But I will agree that there's no comparison now...

(09-22-2010 12:44 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  That wasn't always the case, quo. Warren Moon also came out of the CFL, as did Joe Kapp and quite a few others in days gone bye. But I will agree that there's no comparison now...

No doubt, the NFL sometimes makes mistakes and cuts a guy who should be in the NFL and he ends up in the CFL. Just like sometimes the scouting services and recruiters overlook a high school kid who has blue-chip talent, so he ends up going to Alcorn State (like Steve McNair) or mississippi valley state (like Jerry Rice) instead of USC or Florida.

But those are exceptions that prove the rule: In general, the talent level is and always has been much higher in the NFL than CFL, just as it is much higher in the Big East than in the SWAC.

(09-23-2010 01:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-22-2010 12:44 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  That wasn't always the case, quo. Warren Moon also came out of the CFL, as did Joe Kapp and quite a few others in days gone bye. But I will agree that there's no comparison now...

No doubt, the NFL sometimes makes mistakes and cuts a guy who should be in the NFL and he ends up in the CFL. Just like sometimes the scouting services and recruiters overlook a high school kid who has blue-chip talent, so he ends up going to Alcorn State (like Steve McNair) or mississippi valley state (like Jerry Rice) instead of USC or Florida.

But those are exceptions that prove the rule: In general, the talent level is and always has been much higher in the NFL than CFL, just as it is much higher in the Big East than in the SWAC.

Again, the games are much, much different. That said, Ricky Williams, in his prime, ran for just over 500 yards during his year (2006) with the Argonauts (only 11 games). Kenton Keith, one of the better CFL best backs in the 2000s, ran for 533 in 16 games for the Colts in 2007, when he was starting to slow down. In other words, the NFL star did not dominate the CFL and the CFL star fit in pretty well in the NFL. Again, I don't think this is the norm. I don't think many CFL players could make the jump because the skill set for NFL players is so different. However, I also think a good number of NFL players would struggle in the CFL, again because the skill set is so different. The CFL is truly a different game.

For example, how good would some NFL cover guys be without the ability to press at the line? A guy like Al Harris for the Packers, whose entire game is based upon being physical at the line with the receivers, would have a much harder time covering 5-7 speed guys who get a running start at the line of scrimmage. How good would some NFL nose guards be chasing backs on extra wide fields, especially since they are lining up 1 yard off the ball? How good would some NFL speed rushers be when they have to line up a yard off the line of scrimmage? The list goes on and on. Sure, the NFL elites would thrive. However, some would struggle.

With all this said, I have to admit I am somewhat bias. As a lifelong Packers fan and a Roughriders shareholder, I really have come to appreciate both games.