Heard Geraldo Rivera say tonight there are tens of millions of extremest Muslims. 'bout fell out of my chair. If even an apologist like Geraldo can finally admit it (though he's still hundreds of millions short), there may be hope for us yet.

(09-16-2010 09:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  They shredded them last year, too and plan on doing it again in a month. Any media coverage??

Yes, there was media coverage. I remember hearing about it last year.

Quote:The Qur'an protesters would be just as upset if they shredded a Qur'an. You can't even draw a picture of their prophet.

Probably. They seem to take such things more seriously than Christians (I've seen it said that they consider the actual book to be holy, not just the message it contains but I don't know how true that is). But if it was done behind closed doors it's unlikely they ever would have found out. Ignoring these types of groups would be the best solution.

Quote:Why in the hell are we arguing about whether or not there has been a bible burning?? Who cares??

Because people are saying that burning a Bible in America is ok but burning a Koran is not. I don't believe that is true. I think Americans are better than that. I don't think it's too much to ask the people making such a claim to provide some justification.

Quote:Had you EVER heard of this church before this week??

Yes I had. I heard about them when they pulled their little stunt last year.

Quote:Super Secret?? There's a damn web-site advertising it!! They're 10 times the size of the church where the guy wanted to burn Qur'ans. Not one word in the media and CERTAINLY not one word from the President. Why?? BECAUSE CHRISTIANS DON"T THREATEN TO KILL PEOPLE FOR DESTROYING THEIR BOOK!!!

And on that website it says that this years shredding will be conducted in secret. The date of the shredding will not be published and it will be an invitation only event. That makes it kind of hard to write a story about. I've also seen them referenced in several articles about Terry Jones.

There is no compelling storyline in the KJV Christian vs. non-KJV Christian dispute. I doubt many on the non-KJV side even know there is such a dispute. This isn't true in the case of Islamic extremists vs. the west. It's probably the biggest storyline of the last 20 years, and certainly the biggest in the last 10. Anything which is associated with this gets extra attention.

Quote:Your straw man arguments are pointless

I'm not the one making the argument. I'm asking those making an argument to provide some justification.

Quote:because the fact remains... we're being THREATENED into giving up a right we all know exists.

I don't want Terry Jones burning the Koran because burning books, any book, is a disgusting and pathetic thing to do. But he has every right to make that decision for himself.

You are right. It's absolutely wrong that they are able to frame the debate this way. It sucks that there are people out there who would kill someone because a book was burned, especially someone not in any way connected to decision to burn the book. Anyone who would do that is a piece of trash. But they are out there, and right now the vast majority of them are Muslim extremists.

Jones absolutely would not be responsible for anyone murdered by these extremists if he chose to burn the Koran. That responsibility would rest squarely on their shoulders. There is a difference, however, between intellectually knowing that you aren't at fault and emotionally believing that your aren't (people blaming themselves for things they had no control over is common). If burning the Koran is important enough for him to live with the possible cosequence of additional American deaths (which again, he would be in no way responsible for) then by all means, he should go ahead.

Quote:Did the state warn nearby non-KJV people that this group might kill them??

Right now they seem satisfied with just destroying books. If they killed their neighbors, where would they get the books to destroy (they can't buy them new because that would be supporting what they hate)?

I don't deny that Muslim extremism is a far different, and far more violent, than Christian extremism. These guys are nutty, but almost certainly harmless.

Quote:You may as well ask" when did you stop beating your wife". You're looking for evidence of something that used to happen in the 60's and 70's... before there was much video... and claiming that because you can't find it, it isn't clear that its not a problem.

I rarely watch internet videos. I was looking for news articles or other references. Who was burning Bibles in the 60s & 70s and what were they protesting? It just doesn't fit with any of the traditional groups that I can think of.

But we're not talking about what was acceptable in the 60s & 70s. We're talking about what is acceptable now. While still legal, I believe the tolerance for flag burning has gone way down as well. I don't think most Americans consider burning the Bible to be acceptable behavior just like most Americans don't consider burning the Koran to be acceptable behavior, regardless of whether or not they believe it is legal.

Quote:Do you deny that flags are burned regularly?

Is this country, yes. I'm sure it happened at some of the anti-war rallies and anti-anti-illegal immigration rallies and some random other protests, but I don't see it happening much anymore. Every time there's one of those global economic summits here American flags get burned, but I don't think that qualifies as regularly.

In other countries, absolutely not, but I don't care what people do in other countries. We're better than they are.

Quote:Do you deny that Saudi burns bibles?

No, but again, I don't care. They are a backwardsass people about 400 years behind the times.

Quote:Do you deny that Breyer himself says we have the Constitutional right to burn books even while saying that may need to change??

No, although I might be more reserved in my assessment of whether he thinks it should.

Quote:Foriegn Policy implications?? From a small bunch of extremists?? I thought all Muslims were peaceful except a few extremists? Why would it cause us trouble with a peacefully Muslim country? Can they not control a few dozen lunatics?? If they can't control theirs, how can they expect us to control ours? MAYBE the problem is they don't WANT to control their extremists... AND that there are millions of them, not dozens.

If burning a Koran emboldens the Taliban in Afganistan & aids in their recruiting then yes, I would say that it has had a foreign policy implication. I think it's pretty clear that Afganistan can't control the Taliban. If they could, we wouldn't still be there. And I have very little respect for the rest of the totalitarian regimes in the Middle East, either.

I feel like you're arguing the minutia rather than the big picture because it is easier to find fault in my generalizations than in the actual event.

The fact is, these people threatened to burn bibles in protest, and the other group threatened to burn Qur'ans in protest. The difference is not in the threatened event, but in the reaction to that event. The media coverage is not because of the event, but because of the threats in response to that event, and the public figures who have come out in response to it.

You yourself admit that it is legal to burn books. I don't think anyone has argued that somebody won't be offended. It isn't a protest unless you offend someone... rather than seeking proof that everybody is "okay" with burning bibles, I challenge you to find evidence that there have been threats of murder as a result of it. The "proof" is that it hasn't been an international incident over the bible burning threat.

HERE is the problem...

Building the mosque near ground zero is ALSO insensitive... and not only have we been reminded of their rights by our public officials, but we've been told by the builders that their hands are tied in being compassionate because of the threats from violent Islam. The reminders of the rights of the florida group have been muted/quiet at best... and we're told that we can't exercise our rights because of the threats from violent Islam.

Where are the condemnations by public officials of violent Islam?? Oh yeah... we can't condemn them because we might offend PEACEFUL Islam... and they might TURN violent as a result.

Seems to ME that the obvious problem is Islam, not us

(09-15-2010 12:46 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Where is your Union now?

Better yet, where is the ACLU?