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Thoughts on Social Liberals
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
Thanks for the education
09-14-2010 09:22 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-14-2010 08:27 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-14-2010 03:53 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(09-14-2010 03:15 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-14-2010 02:56 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  "From a purely biological standpoint, a newly fertilized embryo (conception) is no more different than the billions of other cells in your body" <-- This is a false statement and thats what I was addressing, now if you would more clearly like to say at *x* weeks its now a person with rights, I would love to hear it.

I have done so ... and it's in the original quote in your post.

Sotty GTS, got you mixed up with someone else..

So what at five weeks makes it a person?

The brain and CNS begin to form. The brain is the essence of humanity. I think therefore I am.

That's interesting because the first "two weeks" of pregnancy there is actually no pregnancy:

Conception typically occurs about two weeks after the period begins. To calculate your due date, your health care provider will count ahead 40 weeks from the start of your last period. This means your period is counted as part of your pregnancy — even though you weren't pregnant at the time.

So now the window is 3-5 weeks of what people generally call pregnancy..

But Week Three is typically when conception occurs and week 4 is when implantation happens. So now were talking just week 5, which is less than a week after you would test positive.

The first thing to start in week five is the the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form. (before it looks human).
09-15-2010 01:07 AM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-14-2010 10:17 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-14-2010 09:54 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I am on board with Imminent death or 'genetically incompatible with life'... Those are purely medical decisions...

Incest? Rape?

Both are tragic events and if the incest creates a serious genetic deficiency then defer to the above. Otherwise I have to defer to the reason that I am pro-life.

I believe life begins at conception (in your case you believe that life begins at five weeks). Does it matter how that life formed? Is a 4yo product of rape (or incest) less of a person than a four year old who was conceived in love?

I'll give you this, at least you're not taking the cowards way out 'I personally oppose it but who am I to say'... That is a lack of moral relativism and is laudable in today's society weather or not you're liberal/conservative.

I distinguish between potential and current states. From a purely biological standpoint, a newly fertilized embryo (conception) is no more different than the billions of other cells in your body ... including those skin cells you're killing by the 100's as you read this. The question is not just when is it life -- but when it it a human life in and of itself. I consider the mind the essence of the human existence, and therefore I start when the brain begins to form. I think, therefore I am.

A newly fertilized embryo = a skin cell, so that means if a skill cell is left alone an attached to a person it becomes an infant?!? If not there is no similarity. An embryo in most cases if allowed to develop over the natural course will become an infant, a skin cell is a skin cell, and that's all it will ever be.
09-15-2010 05:28 AM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-13-2010 11:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 05:31 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  "Card" carrying SOCIAL liberals stand for a lot of causes;

1) Amnesty for ILLEGALS
2) Save the Planet, socially engineered alternate energy sources are good, socially engineered meaning a carbon tax to make other less viable energy sources as cost effective as carbon fuels
3) Pro-Life, nothing to do with abortion, rather strongly against the death penalty
4) Support PETA
5) Are against the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Social Liberals Share a few values with MORAL Liberals like:
1) Support Same Sex marriage
2) Pro-Choice


To those who call themselves Social Liberals, are you really, or are you a Moral Liberal.

I'd say your definition is INCREDIBLY weak. I do not agree with #1, #2, #3, #4, #5. I do agree with #1 in the second list, and somewhat #2. Your original #2 is fiscal liberalism.

I am a social liberal. Let me toss my social liberal agenda at you:

- Government out of marriage completely. You can marry a transgendered bisexual racist neo-nazi fascist for all I care... so long as you don't infringe upon other's rights in the process.

- At minimum, legal abortion in instances of rape, incest, imminent chance of death of mother, or "genetically incompatible with life". I'd support abortion up to 5-6 weeks in when the brain begins to form in the fetus.

- At minimum, legal marijuana. I'd also support the hard stuff being legal.

- Real sex education and access to safe sex items. Abstinence only isn't a real education.

- Separation of church and state. That means protecting church from government and government from church.

- Increased LEGAL immigration.

- The end of the death penalty, except in cases where the act was caught on video. We have killed innocent people in this country. It's just a fact.

I wouldn't necessarily call my list of causes a definition more an illustration. Defining a social liberal would be someone who supports causes for the "greater" societal good. A Moral Liberal is someone who supports causes for individual conduct. I believe my list of causes show that distinction.
09-15-2010 05:36 AM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-15-2010 01:07 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  The first thing to start in week five is the the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form. (before it looks human).

Week 5

Gestational age: 4 weeks old. 29–35 days from last menstruation.

Embryonic age: Week nr 3. 2 weeks old. 15–21 days from fertilization.
A notochord forms in the center of the embryonic disk. (day 16 of fert.[5])
Gastrulation commences. (day 16of fert.[5])
A neural groove (future spinal cord) forms over the notochord with a brain bulge at one end. Neuromeres appear. (day 18 of fert.[5])
Somites, the divisions of the future vertebra, form. (day 20 of fert.[5])
Primitive heart tube is forming. Vasculature begins to develop in embryonic disc. (day 20 of fert.[5])

Week 6

Gestational age: 5 weeks old. 36–42 days from last menstruation.

Embryonic age: Week nr 4. 3 weeks old. 22–28 days from fertilization.
The embryo measures 4 mm (1/8 inch) in length and begins to curve into a C shape.
The heart bulges, further develops, and begins to beat in a regular rhythm. Septum primum appear.[5]
Branchial arches, grooves which will form structures of the face and neck, form.
The neural tube closes.
The ears begin to form as otic pits.
Arm buds and a tail are visible.
Pulmonary primordium, the first traits of the lung appear.[5]
Hepatic plate, the first traits of the liver appear.[5]
Buccopharyngeal membrane ruptures. This is the future mouth.[5]
Cystic diverticulum, which will become the gallbladder, and dorsal pancreatic bud, which will become the pancreas appear.[5]
Urorectal septum begins to form. Thus, the rectal and urinary passageways become separated.[5]
Anterior and posterior horns differentiate in the spinal cord [5]
Spleen appears.[5]
Ureteric buds appear.[5]

Like I said ... 5-6 weeks. Note the time from last menstruation. That would allow any person in a dilemma (read: a teenager deciding between an education and a kid, etc) to make an important decision.

(09-15-2010 05:28 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  A newly fertilized embryo = a skin cell, so that means if a skill cell is left alone an attached to a person it becomes an infant?!? If not there is no similarity. An embryo in most cases if allowed to develop over the natural course will become an infant, a skin cell is a skin cell, and that's all it will ever be.

Biologically nearly identical... merely executing different parts of the DNA sequence. You again returned to potential. I again remind you I distinguish between potential and current states.

(09-15-2010 05:36 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  I wouldn't necessarily call my list of causes a definition more an illustration. Defining a social liberal would be someone who supports causes for the "greater" societal good. A Moral Liberal is someone who supports causes for individual conduct. I believe my list of causes show that distinction.

I would again disagree with your definition. A social liberal is somebody who does not want the government making rules to govern how society operates socially. A social conservative is somebody who wants to use the power of the state to enforce and impose their social values upon others.
09-15-2010 08:12 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
Something that needs to be added. We've went over this topic ad nauseum. 25% of prenancies result in natural abortion. 1/4 of all pregnancies miscarry. This idea that the hollow ball of cells will one day become life is a falsehood. It was once explained to me like this. Not all flowers become buds. Not all buds become apples.
For someone to call a decided abortion murder has not thought this process out. Mistakes happen quite ferquently in the miotic divide. Sometimes couples choose to abort their prgnancies. When you have a chromosomal disorder 80% of people decide to terminate the pregnancy. Those are the facts. That is not feelings about a subject. Nondisjunction happens, when will the pro life people begin to contemplate this?
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2010 08:24 AM by Machiavelli.)
09-15-2010 08:24 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
This site says 50% of all pregnancies miscarry.

http://www.womens-health.co.uk/miscarr.asp

My wife thinks abortion is only an issue because men can't get pregnant.
09-15-2010 08:28 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-15-2010 08:28 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This site says 50% of all pregnancies miscarry.

http://www.womens-health.co.uk/miscarr.asp

My wife thinks abortion is only an issue because men can't get pregnant.

Word of advice: Don't bring your wife up when she's not here to defend herself.
09-15-2010 08:39 AM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-13-2010 11:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  - The end of the death penalty, except in cases where the act was caught on video. We have killed innocent people in this country. It's just a fact.

My favorite disingenuous statement from this spring's campaign season was ... I'm in favor of the death penalty only when we're 110% sure they are guilty.

The fact is that if you have incarceration, much less if you have the death penalty, you must accept that you are punishing innocent people. You can implement measures to reduce the rate, generally at the expense of letting guilty people go unpunished. But, for a politician to say "we won't make mistakes if I'm elected" without specifying any of those measures or the consequences (more unpunished criminals on the street) is dishonest. Your criteria (video) doesn't guarantee that you won't still kill innocent people.

What I may favor is the death penalty only to recidivist criminals. That way, if you're killing someone innocent, at least it's either someone extraordinarily unlucky or it's someone who's a piece of **** to begin with. "Three strikes and you're dead" ... how's that for a campaign slogan? (another potential benefit is that if the death penalty is a deterrent at all, it would be to someone who at least knows it's a possible outcome).
09-15-2010 09:19 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-15-2010 08:28 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This site says 50% of all pregnancies miscarry.

http://www.womens-health.co.uk/miscarr.asp

My wife thinks abortion is only an issue because men can't get pregnant.

My wife things your wife is wrong because she has an issue with it...
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2010 01:41 PM by Bull_In_Exile.)
09-15-2010 01:40 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-13-2010 11:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 05:31 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  "Card" carrying SOCIAL liberals stand for a lot of causes;

1) Amnesty for ILLEGALS
2) Save the Planet, socially engineered alternate energy sources are good, socially engineered meaning a carbon tax to make other less viable energy sources as cost effective as carbon fuels
3) Pro-Life, nothing to do with abortion, rather strongly against the death penalty
4) Support PETA
5) Are against the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Social Liberals Share a few values with MORAL Liberals like:
1) Support Same Sex marriage
2) Pro-Choice


To those who call themselves Social Liberals, are you really, or are you a Moral Liberal.

I'd say your definition is INCREDIBLY weak. I do not agree with #1, #2, #3, #4, #5. I do agree with #1 in the second list, and somewhat #2. Your original #2 is fiscal liberalism.

I am a social liberal. Let me toss my social liberal agenda at you:

- Government out of marriage completely. You can marry a transgendered bisexual racist neo-nazi fascist for all I care... so long as you don't infringe upon other's rights in the process.

- At minimum, legal abortion in instances of rape, incest, imminent chance of death of mother, or "genetically incompatible with life". I'd support abortion up to 5-6 weeks in when the brain begins to form in the fetus.

- At minimum, legal marijuana. I'd also support the hard stuff being legal.

- Real sex education and access to safe sex items. Abstinence only isn't a real education.

- Separation of church and state. That means protecting church from government and government from church.

- Increased LEGAL immigration.

- The end of the death penalty, except in cases where the act was caught on video. We have killed innocent people in this country. It's just a fact.

+1,000,000
09-16-2010 11:15 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-16-2010 11:15 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 11:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 05:31 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  "Card" carrying SOCIAL liberals stand for a lot of causes;

1) Amnesty for ILLEGALS
2) Save the Planet, socially engineered alternate energy sources are good, socially engineered meaning a carbon tax to make other less viable energy sources as cost effective as carbon fuels
3) Pro-Life, nothing to do with abortion, rather strongly against the death penalty
4) Support PETA
5) Are against the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Social Liberals Share a few values with MORAL Liberals like:
1) Support Same Sex marriage
2) Pro-Choice


To those who call themselves Social Liberals, are you really, or are you a Moral Liberal.

I'd say your definition is INCREDIBLY weak. I do not agree with #1, #2, #3, #4, #5. I do agree with #1 in the second list, and somewhat #2. Your original #2 is fiscal liberalism.

I am a social liberal. Let me toss my social liberal agenda at you:

- Government out of marriage completely. You can marry a transgendered bisexual racist neo-nazi fascist for all I care... so long as you don't infringe upon other's rights in the process.

- At minimum, legal abortion in instances of rape, incest, imminent chance of death of mother, or "genetically incompatible with life". I'd support abortion up to 5-6 weeks in when the brain begins to form in the fetus.

- At minimum, legal marijuana. I'd also support the hard stuff being legal.

- Real sex education and access to safe sex items. Abstinence only isn't a real education.

- Separation of church and state. That means protecting church from government and government from church.

- Increased LEGAL immigration.

- The end of the death penalty, except in cases where the act was caught on video. We have killed innocent people in this country. It's just a fact.

+1,000,000

Me too.
09-16-2010 11:27 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-16-2010 11:15 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 11:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 05:31 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  "Card" carrying SOCIAL liberals stand for a lot of causes;

1) Amnesty for ILLEGALS
2) Save the Planet, socially engineered alternate energy sources are good, socially engineered meaning a carbon tax to make other less viable energy sources as cost effective as carbon fuels
3) Pro-Life, nothing to do with abortion, rather strongly against the death penalty
4) Support PETA
5) Are against the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Social Liberals Share a few values with MORAL Liberals like:
1) Support Same Sex marriage
2) Pro-Choice


To those who call themselves Social Liberals, are you really, or are you a Moral Liberal.

I'd say your definition is INCREDIBLY weak. I do not agree with #1, #2, #3, #4, #5. I do agree with #1 in the second list, and somewhat #2. Your original #2 is fiscal liberalism.

I am a social liberal. Let me toss my social liberal agenda at you:

- Government out of marriage completely. You can marry a transgendered bisexual racist neo-nazi fascist for all I care... so long as you don't infringe upon other's rights in the process.

- At minimum, legal abortion in instances of rape, incest, imminent chance of death of mother, or "genetically incompatible with life". I'd support abortion up to 5-6 weeks in when the brain begins to form in the fetus.

- At minimum, legal marijuana. I'd also support the hard stuff being legal.

- Real sex education and access to safe sex items. Abstinence only isn't a real education.

- Separation of church and state. That means protecting church from government and government from church.

- Increased LEGAL immigration.

- The end of the death penalty, except in cases where the act was caught on video. We have killed innocent people in this country. It's just a fact.

+1,000,000

As I responded to GTS, I never called my ILLUSTRATION a definition, but I did define Social Liberal and Moral Liberal in my response. I still stand by that definition Social Liberal since the word

social - noting or pertaining to activities designed to remedy or alleviate certain unfavorable conditions of life in a community, esp. among the poor

deals with a collective good.

Moral Liberal is more about individual code of conduct or rights. Most people on this board that call themself Social Liberals are REALLY Moral Liberals.

Moral - founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2010 05:31 AM by THE NC Herd Fan.)
09-17-2010 05:27 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
After Herd explained himself I understand his position starting the thread.
09-17-2010 09:15 AM
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Post: #55
RE: Thoughts on Social Liberals
(09-17-2010 05:27 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  
(09-16-2010 11:15 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 11:44 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-13-2010 05:31 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  "Card" carrying SOCIAL liberals stand for a lot of causes;

1) Amnesty for ILLEGALS
2) Save the Planet, socially engineered alternate energy sources are good, socially engineered meaning a carbon tax to make other less viable energy sources as cost effective as carbon fuels
3) Pro-Life, nothing to do with abortion, rather strongly against the death penalty
4) Support PETA
5) Are against the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

Social Liberals Share a few values with MORAL Liberals like:
1) Support Same Sex marriage
2) Pro-Choice


To those who call themselves Social Liberals, are you really, or are you a Moral Liberal.

I'd say your definition is INCREDIBLY weak. I do not agree with #1, #2, #3, #4, #5. I do agree with #1 in the second list, and somewhat #2. Your original #2 is fiscal liberalism.

I am a social liberal. Let me toss my social liberal agenda at you:

- Government out of marriage completely. You can marry a transgendered bisexual racist neo-nazi fascist for all I care... so long as you don't infringe upon other's rights in the process.

- At minimum, legal abortion in instances of rape, incest, imminent chance of death of mother, or "genetically incompatible with life". I'd support abortion up to 5-6 weeks in when the brain begins to form in the fetus.

- At minimum, legal marijuana. I'd also support the hard stuff being legal.

- Real sex education and access to safe sex items. Abstinence only isn't a real education.

- Separation of church and state. That means protecting church from government and government from church.

- Increased LEGAL immigration.

- The end of the death penalty, except in cases where the act was caught on video. We have killed innocent people in this country. It's just a fact.

+1,000,000

As I responded to GTS, I never called my ILLUSTRATION a definition, but I did define Social Liberal and Moral Liberal in my response. I still stand by that definition Social Liberal since the word

social - noting or pertaining to activities designed to remedy or alleviate certain unfavorable conditions of life in a community, esp. among the poor

deals with a collective good.

Moral Liberal is more about individual code of conduct or rights. Most people on this board that call themself Social Liberals are REALLY Moral Liberals.

Moral - founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom

I actually stopped reading your original post before the end. It didn't make much sense. My +1,000,000 had to do with the rest of GTS' post. Thanks for your concern though.
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2010 08:16 PM by aTxTIGER.)
09-18-2010 08:15 PM
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