So I was reading about this while sitting on watch tonight (mainly aimed at those who are/have been teachers):

The question of “How to evaluate teachers?”

I’m not 100% informed on how this works and I know that it varies from state to state and even district to district, but from at least my experiences it is/has been based on standardized student testing scores (whatever that test may be).

I’ve heard two dominant positions regarding this approach:
1) standardized testing is not a fair tool to evaluate teachers because students develop in different ways and a student who performs poorly is not necessarily lacking the tools to make them a successful student/individual. Additionally, this may not be a true reflection of the teacher’s abilities and commitment to their job.
2) Students need to be compared to a set standard and to one another. Competition is a reality in the real world, and a student’s success will ultimately be dependent on how competitive they can make themselves. A teacher who has students who can consistently meet or exceed standards is clearly doing something right in preparing them for the world outside of academia.

Now, the big question I think has always been: Where is the middle ground?

I obviously tend to lean towards the second position, but am concerned about the case made by the first position. Would it not be viable to create a test with various levels to gauge a student’s total understanding of a topic? For example: a history exam may ask a basic question such as “What is the First Amendment?” Then a second tier would be “What was the purpose of including such an Amendment?” and then possibly a third tier such as “Who are some influences and their cases for the development of the First Amendment?” Something along the lines that gauge not just a student’s basic understanding of the material (tier 1), but the deeper and critical thinking aspects (tiers 2 and 3). (Note that this is just a hypothetical style question). Naturally the ability to have the basics is important, but a student who can explain the causes and influences is clearly able to think critically (trying not to stray too far into student evaluations/comparisons).

Additionally do school districts use long term monitoring to evaluate student success, and therefore aid in evaluating teachers? A student who continually performs poorly would certainly raise a red flag for me and makes a strong case for outlying reasons for failure other than their teachers.

Finally, with the above information, how far is this from realistic or reality? Thoughts? Comments?

For those curious as to what spurred this, see linked article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/edi..._ST1_N.htm

Evaluating teachers is a difficult topic. I'm not a big fan of using standardized test scores as a metric, unless the results of the test have a significant impact for the students as well. I don't think needing to pass a test to advance a grade is enough either, unless the threshold for passing is relatively high.

When I was growing up, I never cared much about the regular standardized tests (I cared more about the SATs, but that's because they actually affected my future plans). My goal was always to finish them as fast as I could with getting the right answers almost a secondary goal. It's not that I wanted to fail, it's that I knew I wouldn't and it didn't really matter anyways. It's doubtful that there's anything a teacher could have done to motivate me on any particular standardized test so I'm not sure holding them accountable for my performance is the best way to do it. Of course, I had some outstanding teachers who I genuinely respected, so maybe knowing that their jobs depended on my performance would have been a motivating factor.

Two things that I have noticed about standardized tests.

1) If this is what you want to judge me on. FINE. Tell me what you want the kid's to know and I'll make damn sure they know it. This actually pigeon holes the best and the brightest. I spend the majority of my time some years on remedial work. It's all about getting my classes to 75 %. Some years I don't have to worry about it. I don't spend any time on review. Last year I spent a month literally reviewing 7th and 8th grade material. This year I have a pretty smart group. I don't think I'll have to worry about anything.

2) I WOULD LOVE to have our general assembly have to take the 10th grade exam. I WOULD LOVE TO POST those scores. Some of the idiots at the State Capital would revise the test instantaneously. It's not an easy test. People on here would do ok on it, but the general population. NO FCKIN WAY.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/health...gewanted=1

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/educa...4233.story

Similar topic.

Hey, Chicago was doing so well, we hired Arne Duncan to be in the cabinet.

(09-10-2010 01:16 AM)T-Monay820 Wrote:  1) standardized testing is not a fair tool to evaluate teachers because students develop in different ways and a student who performs poorly is not necessarily lacking the tools to make them a successful student/individual. Additionally, this may not be a true reflection of the teacher’s abilities and commitment to their job.

This is what the unions want us to believe. I will say class size and parenting play a very large role in a kid's education - you wouldn;t believe what my wife does for my kid in this regard. I doubt an inner city drug addict welfare parent could or would do the same.

I wouldn't want to be a teacher in a big city school system like LA, NY, Chicago, etc.

parenting play a very large role in a kid's education



^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^

I used to think it was class size, but it's not. Kids, as a whole, don't have a clue on how to act in social settings anymore. It's getting increasingly worse. Give me 30 kids in a class who have a clue on how to behave vs. 20 with 5 knuckleheads.

(09-12-2010 11:51 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  parenting play a very large role in a kid's education



^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^

I used to think it was class size, but it's not. Kids, as a whole, don't have a clue on how to act in social settings anymore. It's getting increasingly worse. Give me 30 kids in a class who have a clue on how to behave vs. 20 with 5 knuckleheads.

Yeah, I wonder if teachers regret pushing parents out of the system for the past 40 years.

(09-12-2010 01:43 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-12-2010 11:51 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  parenting play a very large role in a kid's education



^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^

I used to think it was class size, but it's not. Kids, as a whole, don't have a clue on how to act in social settings anymore. It's getting increasingly worse. Give me 30 kids in a class who have a clue on how to behave vs. 20 with 5 knuckleheads.

Yeah, I wonder if teachers regret pushing parents out of the system for the past 40 years.

How so?

(09-12-2010 02:53 PM)GRPunk Wrote:  

(09-12-2010 01:43 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-12-2010 11:51 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  parenting play a very large role in a kid's education



^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^

I used to think it was class size, but it's not. Kids, as a whole, don't have a clue on how to act in social settings anymore. It's getting increasingly worse. Give me 30 kids in a class who have a clue on how to behave vs. 20 with 5 knuckleheads.

Yeah, I wonder if teachers regret pushing parents out of the system for the past 40 years.

How so?

Teachers have pursued flawed fads in education (whole language learning, new math) all while dismissing parents' inputs and objections. And when confronted teachers will point blank lie about what's in their curriculum.

The results are disastrous.

Meanwhile it doesn't end. Teachers, largely "progressives" on the political left just ignore parents and insist on doing things their way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...00991.html

When teachers say they want parental "involvement," what they really want is "compliance."

Torch......

Remember when you said progressives post on feelings while conservatives post on facts. This is a prime example where you post on feelings. Alot of your gripes are pushed on teachers. Teachers aren't pushing it. Most of that crap is pushed by mid level administrators that have to justify a job. Schools are filled with them.

(09-12-2010 04:32 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-12-2010 02:53 PM)GRPunk Wrote:  

(09-12-2010 01:43 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-12-2010 11:51 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  parenting play a very large role in a kid's education



^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^

I used to think it was class size, but it's not. Kids, as a whole, don't have a clue on how to act in social settings anymore. It's getting increasingly worse. Give me 30 kids in a class who have a clue on how to behave vs. 20 with 5 knuckleheads.

Yeah, I wonder if teachers regret pushing parents out of the system for the past 40 years.

How so?

Teachers have pursued flawed fads in education (whole language learning, new math) all while dismissing parents' inputs and objections. And when confronted teachers will point blank lie about what's in their curriculum.

The results are disastrous.

Meanwhile it doesn't end. Teachers, largely "progressives" on the political left just ignore parents and insist on doing things their way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...00991.html

When teachers say they want parental "involvement," what they really want is "compliance."

You've just linked an article about a school board making a determination on curriculum. I don't know about your part of the woods, but there isn't a single teacher on the school boards around here.

Since you've allowed unfounded generalizations to enter the conversation, I've found most school boards to lean quite conservative.

Most teachers welcome parent involvement. School-Home collaboration generally makes teaching easier.

Again...........

It's feelings vs. facts. He feels teachers do this. Hence, in his mind, it's fact.

(09-12-2010 04:42 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Torch......

Remember when you said progressives post on feelings while conservatives post on facts. This is a prime example where you post on feelings. Alot of your gripes are pushed on teachers. Teachers aren't pushing it. Most of that crap is pushed by mid level administrators that have to justify a job. Schools are filled with them.

Sometimes maybe. But teachers are the ones on the ground. They push the agendas when they see fit. As an example, they have a choice when it comes to phonics...they can emphasize it and teach their students to read, or they can go along w/ the fad of the year.

As for feelings, save it Mach. I'm not the one on YouTube whining how I do a job b/c I love it. It was another teacher on You Tube telling us how bad global warming is. I wasn't the one who offered students credit toward their "volunteer" service requirements if they showed up at a statehouse protest. It's teachers who have taken girls across state lines to get abortions w/o their parents' consent. It's teachers who took away candy and reported a kid for selling drugs. It's teachers who see a butter knife and report a kid for having a deadly weapon. Those are the facts that you have to deal with. Trying to pretend those are "feelings" only shows how out-of-touch that you really are.

What you fail to see is that this is not a new phenomenon. This has been going on overtly since (at least) the 1950s, and if you read the literature, the seeds were planted with Dewey and Mann. What's happening now is that there have been 3-4 generations influenced heavily by this progressive agenda, during the era when it was mostly teachers at schools. The administration bloat you cite is one of the consequences of that. So is the lack of parental involvement. This generation of teachers is reaping what past generations sowed.

But, since this generation of teachers refuses to learn and understand what those mistakes were, and they insist on repeating them, I just take the opportunity to scoff at your complaints.

Quote:They push the agendas when they see fit. As an example, they have a choice when it comes to phonics...they can emphasize it and teach their students to read, or they can go along w/ the fad of the year.

Categorically FALSE. We have aligned state curricula. Our students are tested on said curricula. This is all that administartors care about. You hit that 75% passing rate and the "Eye of Sauron" gazes elsewhere. Ignore the state curricula at your own peril.

Quote:Trying to pretend those are "feelings" only shows how out-of-touch that you really are.

Someone's out of touch. I'll let the spin room decide if it's the ass in the grass teacher or the home school cheerleader. You have pre-concieved gripes. Be damned if they are warranted.


Torch. Listen. I'm being very serious about this. Our institutions are under attack. From the clergy to teachers. It's very easy to paint the whole because of the reprehensible few. 90% of teachers are great people. You just don't see scumbags going into that profession. There is one subset that are bullies. I kind of equate it to some of the cops that I know. 2 of them are great guys. One went into it for the power trip. He was picked on alot in high school. Now he uses steel wool for wash cloths. Just a badass from the word go....... You do have some of those in the profession.

(09-13-2010 08:05 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  

Quote:They push the agendas when they see fit. As an example, they have a choice when it comes to phonics...they can emphasize it and teach their students to read, or they can go along w/ the fad of the year.

Categorically FALSE. We have aligned state curricula. Our students are tested on said curricula. This is all that administartors care about. You hit that 75% passing rate and the "Eye of Sauron" gazes elsewhere. Ignore the state curricula at your own peril.

This isn't as universal as you make it out. BTW, this is broader than Ohio.

Quote:

Quote:Trying to pretend those are "feelings" only shows how out-of-touch that you really are.

Someone's out of touch. I'll let the spin room decide if it's the ass in the grass teacher or the home school cheerleader. You have pre-concieved gripes. Be damned if they are warranted.

Ok, then what are my "pre-concieved gripes"? Put up or shut up, Mach. You make the claim, then back it up.

Quote: Torch. Listen. I'm being very serious about this. Our institutions are under attack. From the clergy to teachers. It's very easy to paint the whole because of the reprehensible few. 90% of teachers are great people. You just don't see scumbags going into that profession. There is one subset that are bullies. I kind of equate it to some of the cops that I know. 2 of them are great guys. One went into it for the power trip. He was picked on alot in high school. Now he uses steel wool for wash cloths. Just a badass from the word go....... You do have some of those in the profession.

Mach,
Your institutions are doing what they were designed to do. Yes, you think they're "under attack" b/c you want to think that there can be a "golden age" when everything was alright. That's exactly what the progressive agenda sells. That's the story line! But, the system has been rigged from the beginning. And even by your own standards, good teachers haven't stopped the problems.

Geesh Mach, we aren't disagreeing that problems exist. Every issue you cite I agree with you that it's a problem. The difference is I can see it's cause 30-40 years prior.

But you don't have to trust me. Go read Mann, Dewey, Sanger, Huxley for yourself. They weren't shy about their agendas. Quite the opposite, they were proud of their cause, and they were explicit on how to use "education" to achieve their aims. And if, as a teacher, you aren't familiar with all of this, then recognize that your professors were. And the authors of your textbooks.

As my wife (school teacher) has taught me.....

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

If you only get one meal a day (free lunch at school), have to endure endless parties at your "parents'", or "parent's" house and can't get sleep, are concerned for your safety on your way home, or at night with gang violence, how can you possibly try to learn?

It's the parents fault...90% I think. Parent/teacher conferences...whose parents show up? The ones that need help? Yeah right.

At the end of the year when the teacher and principal recommend holding your child back.....whose parents get indignant and claim racism, prejudice, favoritism, or say it's the teachers fault?

Whose responsibility is it to pay for those hierarchy of needs? That's what it boils down to. Is this the teacher's fault? How do we provide for those that can't provide for themselves? At what level does a responsible society provide these needs. There's abuses on each side of the spectrum. Where do we find Goldilocks?

This is a big reason I am pro choice. The LAST thing we need is more kids whose parents give two ***** about them. I truly don't get the "Republican Argument" here. On one hand we do our darndest to limit social services. On the other hand we want to "outlaw" Roe vs. Wade to "create" more people who need social services.


My solution.................... Ok we will help out when a parent or parents have a kid they can't adequately provide for.. As soon as you take govt. assistance. Mandatory birth control. You stay on birth control until you can provide for yourself and your dependents.

(09-13-2010 12:11 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Whose responsibility is it to pay for those hierarchy of needs? That's what it boils down to. Is this the teacher's fault? How do we provide for those that can't provide for themselves? At what level does a responsible society provide these needs. There's abuses on each side of the spectrum. Where do we find Goldilocks?

This is a big reason I am pro choice. The LAST thing we need is more kids whose parents give two ***** about them. I truly don't get the "Republican Argument" here. On one hand we do our darndest to limit social services. On the other hand we want to "outlaw" Roe vs. Wade to "create" more people who need social services.


My solution.................... Ok we will help out when a parent or parents have a kid they can't adequately provide for.. As soon as you take govt. assistance. Mandatory birth control. You stay on birth control until you can provide for yourself and your dependents.

The more and more liberals got involved with education, the less and less the parents stayed involved.

You libs have created a welfare state.

Quote:Ok, then what are my "pre-concieved gripes"? Put up or shut up, Mach. You make the claim, then back it up.

Teachers, largely "progressives" on the political left just ignore parents and insist on doing things their way.



This...... this can not be farther from the truth. Here's another nugget. The majority of teacher's I work with are conservative. Voted for GWB both times. This fallacy that teacher's are all hippy anti war flower children. This is a pre concieved gripe from two posts up.