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Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 01:39 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 12:13 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I don't see how stopping an embargo would automatically cause Castro to embrace a free market. We're about the only country that isn't trading with Cuba. How would adding one more, I.e. us, make their plight any different? They're under a totalitarian dictator. Their lot in life will remain the same until Castro and his brother are dead and they get free elections. Embargoes be damned.

...and for the record, I'm all for ending it. I just think it's a fallacious argument to say that once it's ended, Raul and Gloria will automatically be able to trade their '57 Chevy for a 2010 Escalade and move up into the 3 BR home they've always dreamed about.

It would be gradual.... of course they wouldn't swap 50's era cars for new ones. But I think you underestimate how much free Cubans HERE would do to influence things. And they've been trying to do so for awhile ... it's just we keep stopping them via embargo and other ways. Lots of times the FCC has shut down rogue stations transmitting to Cuba from southern Florida.

(09-08-2010 12:20 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  You write this, and I'm largely in agreement with you. But what confuses me is your disdain for Christianity. Because Christianity was a necessary precursor to the free market. Check your history; it was the radical concepts within Christianity (equality of mankind) along with the property rights taught in Judaism, that led to free markets and subsequent human progress.

I find free markets to be an extension of social contract theory. Even godless primitive tribes in the Amazon have a concept of barter and trade and market and actively engage in them.

SCT?...As an advocate of Voluntarist government....I can say I'm not down with it. The only contract I believe in is one that "I" agree to voluntarily. SCT has no problem using "force" to make me conform to its control.
09-08-2010 07:50 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 05:35 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  I'm partial to SCT too, moreso than libertarinism. However, barter and trade are not the same thing as a "free market".

Once again, history is a good teacher.

And their society is a far cry from ours. They don't even have common law enforcement. I'm merely making the point that in the utter absence of religion the same common ethics and most efficient systems arise.
09-08-2010 08:40 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 07:50 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  SCT?...As an advocate of Voluntarist government....I can say I'm not down with it. The only contract I believe in is one that "I" agree to voluntarily. SCT has no problem using "force" to make me conform to its control.

It's an implied contract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes
09-08-2010 08:43 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
Quote:According to Hobbes, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority, to whom all individuals in that society cede their natural rights for the sake of protection. Any abuses of power by this authority are to be accepted as the price of peace. However, he also states that in severe cases of abuse, rebellion is expected. In particular, the doctrine of separation of powers is rejected:[13] the sovereign must control civil, military, judicial and ecclesiastical powers

Hobbes is an interesting character, but if this is what you mean by a social contract, you can keep it.
09-08-2010 09:06 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 09:06 PM)jh Wrote:  Hobbes is an interesting character, but if this is what you mean by a social contract, you can keep it.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/

Quote:Hobbes is famous for his early and elaborate development of what has come to be known as “social contract theory”, the method of justifying political principles or arrangements by appeal to the agreement that would be made among suitably situated rational, free, and equal persons. He is infamous for having used the social contract method to arrive at the astonishing conclusion that we ought to submit to the authority of an absolute—undivided and unlimited—sovereign power.

His basis is quite good. His conclusion is quite bad. But he was the first to assemble that basis argument and put a name to it -- so he gets the credit.

Pythagoras believed Math was proprietary and should only be told in secret to his followers as his school. But you don't hold that against the Pythagorean theorem do you? Same thing. Basis good -- application and conclusion bad.
09-08-2010 09:13 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 09:13 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 09:06 PM)jh Wrote:  Hobbes is an interesting character, but if this is what you mean by a social contract, you can keep it.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/

Quote:Hobbes is famous for his early and elaborate development of what has come to be known as “social contract theory”, the method of justifying political principles or arrangements by appeal to the agreement that would be made among suitably situated rational, free, and equal persons. He is infamous for having used the social contract method to arrive at the astonishing conclusion that we ought to submit to the authority of an absolute—undivided and unlimited—sovereign power.

His basis is quite good. His conclusion is quite bad. But he was the first to assemble that basis argument and put a name to it -- so he gets the credit.

Pythagoras believed Math was proprietary and should only be told in secret to his followers as his school. But you don't hold that against the Pythagorean theorem do you? Same thing. Basis good -- application and conclusion bad.

No, but if I was trying to explain a point about the Pythagorean theorem I wouldn't link to a page about Pythagoras either. So, to each his own, I guess.
09-08-2010 09:22 PM
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Know Nothing Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 09:41 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Wanna make Cuba Democratic? Stop the embargo.

Completely agree. Cuba's current communist regime is slowly collapsing as is, stopping the embargo would speed up the process.
09-08-2010 09:34 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 08:43 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 07:50 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  SCT?...As an advocate of Voluntarist government....I can say I'm not down with it. The only contract I believe in is one that "I" agree to voluntarily. SCT has no problem using "force" to make me conform to its control.

It's an implied contract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes

It is implied by Hobbes theory....but...those that believe in this have NO problem using the force of government to make YOU adhere to it....So...I pass on SCT.04-cheers
09-08-2010 09:46 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 09:06 PM)jh Wrote:  
Quote:According to Hobbes, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority, to whom all individuals in that society cede their natural rights for the sake of protection. Any abuses of power by this authority are to be accepted as the price of peace. However, he also states that in severe cases of abuse, rebellion is expected. In particular, the doctrine of separation of powers is rejected:[13] the sovereign must control civil, military, judicial and ecclesiastical powers

Hobbes is an interesting character, but if this is what you mean by a social contract, you can keep it.

This.04-cheers

JH...Sound like you might be a candidate for Free Market Voluntarism.05-stirthepot
09-08-2010 09:48 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 09:13 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 09:06 PM)jh Wrote:  Hobbes is an interesting character, but if this is what you mean by a social contract, you can keep it.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/

Quote:Hobbes is famous for his early and elaborate development of what has come to be known as “social contract theory”, the method of justifying political principles or arrangements by appeal to the agreement that would be made among suitably situated rational, free, and equal persons. He is infamous for having used the social contract method to arrive at the astonishing conclusion that we ought to submit to the authority of an absolute—undivided and unlimited—sovereign power.

His basis is quite good. His conclusion is quite bad. But he was the first to assemble that basis argument and put a name to it -- so he gets the credit.

Pythagoras believed Math was proprietary and should only be told in secret to his followers as his school. But you don't hold that against the Pythagorean theorem do you? Same thing. Basis good -- application and conclusion bad.

I would be down with Hobbes if he understood the axiom of non aggression....Then he would have been forced to come to another conclusion....The INDIVIDUAL has sovereign power over their body and the value its labor produces. NO one has any right to control that without the individuals voluntary submission. Hobbes believed that force/violence is a necessary evil to achieve his goal of SCT...I don't.05-stirthepot
09-08-2010 10:02 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 09:34 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 09:41 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Wanna make Cuba Democratic? Stop the embargo.

Completely agree. Cuba's current communist regime is slowly collapsing as is, stopping the embargo would speed up the process.

I agree...Cuba is primed for change....Raul knows it but cant go but so far as long as big brother is alive. Removing the embargo would be an economic benefit to BOTH the US and Cuba. When Castro finally kicks....Cuba is going bust wide ass capitalist open..just like every other commie country has done.
09-08-2010 10:09 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
To me at least, Hobbes' Leviathan is the most important piece of political philosophy ever written. I would sit down for dinner with Hobbes before even Washington, King or Jesus.
09-08-2010 11:11 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 11:11 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  To me at least, Hobbes' Leviathan is the most important piece of political philosophy ever written. I would sit down for dinner with Hobbes before even Washington, King or Jesus.

I'd opt for Jefferson first. Perhaps Andrew Jackson after that ... not sure. Nobody really is even in the same league as Thomas Jefferson IMO.
09-08-2010 11:28 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
(09-08-2010 10:09 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 09:34 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  
(09-08-2010 09:41 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Wanna make Cuba Democratic? Stop the embargo.
Completely agree. Cuba's current communist regime is slowly collapsing as is, stopping the embargo would speed up the process.
I agree...Cuba is primed for change....Raul knows it but cant go but so far as long as big brother is alive. Removing the embargo would be an economic benefit to BOTH the US and Cuba. When Castro finally kicks....Cuba is going bust wide ass capitalist open..just like every other commie country has done.

One big difference. No other commie country has done it 90 miles from the USA. Unless we're a commie country ourselves by then, the impact is going to dwarf anything that has happened elsewhere.
09-09-2010 01:40 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
What are the concrete signs that Cuba's Communist Party is soon on the verge of collapsing? And I'm talking more than just a little window-dressing tweak to the command economy here and there. It'll take far more than Fidel kicking the bucket to overturn the power structure down there. Is it more wishful thinking than anything else?
09-09-2010 06:36 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
http://www.therealcuba.com

Someone is living lavishly in Cuba. .....but it isn't the common people. Worker's paradise my ass and this is what progressive liberals here want us to model. The same Gdamn idiots with Che flags, tattoos, shirts, etc.
09-09-2010 07:24 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Castro Blasts Ahmadinejad as Anti-Semitic
Regardless of whether or not it makes sense to lift the embargo, one thing is certain - it will not be lifted as long as Fidel is living and breathing.
09-09-2010 11:25 AM
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