Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
More on the higher ed bubble
Author Message
DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #1
More on the higher ed bubble
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politi...80809.html

This is op/ed. Here are some stats to augment the case:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/09/admi...rican.html

My favorite chart

[Image: tuition.jpg]

Only I wish it went back to 1960
09-07-2010 08:53 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


RobertN Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 35,485
Joined: Jan 2003
Reputation: 95
I Root For: THE NIU Huskies
Location: Wayne's World
Post: #2
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 08:53 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politi...80809.html

This is op/ed. Here are some stats to augment the case:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/09/admi...rican.html

My favorite chart

[Image: tuition.jpg]

Only I wish it went back to 1960
03-lmfao Opinion pieces and charts from a blo0(which of course aren't spun to fit their/your position. .
09-07-2010 09:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
SumOfAllFears Offline
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
*

Posts: 18,213
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 58
I Root For: America
Location:
Post: #3
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 08:53 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politi...80809.html

This is op/ed. Here are some stats to augment the case:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/09/admi...rican.html

My favorite chart

[Image: tuition.jpg]

Only I wish it went back to 1960

Very good op-ed. Good supporting material. Are we looking at more bailouts for colleges? Too big to fail? And since the gov't has taken over the student loans, guess that puts the taxpayers on the hook, again.

Thought this website interesting, quoted in the article. whatwilltheylearn.com - Rice does not appear to fair too well on the general education curriculum.

There are people here that are a product of this failed educational system.
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2010 10:48 AM by SumOfAllFears.)
09-07-2010 10:41 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Lord Stanley Offline
L'Étoile du Nord
*

Posts: 19,103
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation: 994
I Root For: NIU
Location: Cold. So cold......
Post: #4
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
Quote:Mindy Marks report that students these days study an average of 14 hours a week, down from 24 hours in 1961.

I don't think this is as important as one may believe, because advances in studying and access to more material probably means one can study more effeciently? I wrote a well received paper in college on the American political involvement in the Falklands War that I could just imagine would be that much better with access to the internet.

Quote:They aren't taught the basics of literature, history or science. ACTA reports that most schools don't require a foreign language, hardly any require economics, American history and government "are badly neglected" and schools "have much to do" on math and science.

When I lived in IL, I was a frequent speaker at the Internship and Co-Op department at NIU. I was always asked "what piece of advice do you give kids in college yada yada yada." Without fail, my advise was to make sure you took Econ 101 and an Introduction to Business class, even if you were a Lesbian Poety Intepretation Studies major. Because even Lesbian Poety Intepretation Studies majors have to know how to fill out the books and run a spread sheet, and frankly, few of the students would be working in their areas of majors and minors just few years out of school. I don't think that advise was always heeded....

Quote:People are beginning to note that administrative bloat, so common in government, seems especially egregious in colleges and universities. Somehow previous generations got by and even prospered without these legions of counselors, liaison officers and facilitators. Perhaps we can do so again.

I've read that some schools are approaching a 50 / 50 mix of administrators to faculty.

Quote:Others are interested in worthy non-college careers like carpentry.

Maybe there is a discussion to be had on how to make blue collar jobs sexy?

Quote:Still others wonder whether the four-year residential college model is worth the investment when you can spend much less on two years in community college and then transfer to a four-year school.

Positively the wave of the future, even at the Graduate level.

Quote:A century ago only about 2 percent of American adults graduated from college; in 1910 the number of college graduates nationally was 39,755 -- smaller than the student bodies at many campuses today.

04-jawdrop
09-07-2010 11:32 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #5
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 11:32 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
Quote:Mindy Marks report that students these days study an average of 14 hours a week, down from 24 hours in 1961.

I don't think this is as important as one may believe, because advances in studying and access to more material probably means one can study more effeciently? I wrote a well received paper in college on the American political involvement in the Falklands War that I could just imagine would be that much better with access to the internet.

This was considered in the original study. However, the conclusion was that it couldn't explain everything.

Quote:
Quote:They aren't taught the basics of literature, history or science. ACTA reports that most schools don't require a foreign language, hardly any require economics, American history and government "are badly neglected" and schools "have much to do" on math and science.

When I lived in IL, I was a frequent speaker at the Internship and Co-Op department at NIU. I was always asked "what piece of advice do you give kids in college yada yada yada." Without fail, my advise was to make sure you took Econ 101 and an Introduction to Business class,

I wouldn't push the Econ 101 too much. Keynesian theory is the prevailing theory, and even worse it's taught poorly. Better stick w/ the business and accounting classes. Practical knowledge, rather than esoteric theory.

Quote:
Quote:Others are interested in worthy non-college careers like carpentry.

Maybe there is a discussion to be had on how to make blue collar jobs sexy?

Already going on. Was at the DMC a few years back, and there was a rep from the Dept of Commerce. He cited a discussion w/ a comm college (in IL as it were) where they had a gorgeous chrome plated motorcycle as a completed class project. He asked them why wasn't that on the cover of their course guide, if they were serious about recruiting students to train as skilled machinists, and mufacturers.

Anyway, that push is on. Students are learning that the ROI for college isn't real. It was always really another Ponzi scheme, not surprisingly pushed largely by leftist educators.
09-07-2010 11:53 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #6
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
I guess this was a hot topic today. More commentary

http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/201...epage=true

And Victor David Hanson

http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanso...epage=true
09-07-2010 12:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Motown Bronco Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,758
Joined: Jul 2002
Reputation: 211
I Root For: WMU
Location: Metro Detroit
Post: #7
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
Good article.

RN, no matter the source, skyrocketing college tuition (relative to the overall cost increases of goods/services) is pretty common knowledge. And a "What If?" about a possible bubble burst if public opinion starts to question the real value of such an expensive degree is a legit one.
09-07-2010 01:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BlazerFan11 Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,228
Joined: Dec 2005
Reputation: 367
I Root For: UAB
Location:
Post: #8
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 09:14 AM)RobertN Wrote:  03-lmfao Opinion pieces and charts from a blo0(which of course aren't spun to fit their/your position. .

Perry is a well-respected economist. Not that you would know anything about that, since you have the economic IQ of a pile of toenail clippings.
09-07-2010 01:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
moe24 Offline
Original Lawson Lunatic
*

Posts: 4,337
Joined: May 2007
Reputation: 52
I Root For: WMU
Location: Otsego, MI
Post: #9
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 09:14 AM)RobertN Wrote:  03-lmfao Opinion pieces and charts from a blo0(which of course aren't spun to fit their/your position. .

You not liking the source doesn't magically make the information invalid. The chart is based on documented facts that are not in dispute.
09-07-2010 01:55 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


SumOfAllFears Offline
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
*

Posts: 18,213
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 58
I Root For: America
Location:
Post: #10
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 01:55 PM)moe24 Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 09:14 AM)RobertN Wrote:  03-lmfao Opinion pieces and charts from a blo0(which of course aren't spun to fit their/your position. .

You not liking the source doesn't magically make the information invalid. The chart is based on documented facts that are not in dispute.

Facts never enter into the Roberta narrative. It is a incessant troll that discredits sources for merely being an opposing viewpoint.
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2010 04:22 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
09-07-2010 04:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RaiderATO Offline
Puddin' Stick
*

Posts: 6,093
Joined: May 2005
Reputation: 139
I Root For: MiddleTennessee
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Post: #11
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 11:32 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
Quote:Others are interested in worthy non-college careers like carpentry.

Maybe there is a discussion to be had on how to make blue collar jobs sexy?

I've been enamored by tailors for a while now. Seems like a noble profession that I could make into something pretty successful. Even with having a college degree. (Yes, I can sew. No, I'm not gay. I've made a few of my own ties even. You'd be surprised at how simple it is.)
09-07-2010 06:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 40,279
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 1284
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #12
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 10:41 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Rice does not appear to fair too well on the general education curriculum.


Yes... We don't do "general education".

No credit given for Composition because the writing requirement consists of a university-administered composition examination, and only those students who do not receive a satisfactory score must take a writing course.

No credit given for Literature because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups.

No credit given for Foreign Language because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups

No credit given for U.S. Government or History because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution
groups.

No credit given for Economics because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups.

No credit given for Mathematics because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups

No credit given for Natural or Physical Science because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups



In other words, despite the fact that we offer many "specific" courses in several broad distribution groups... we don't offer a "general math" course. As a school where the Average SAT is well above average... we don't really see the value in re-enforcing what the students have already demonstrated they have mastered.

While I don't dispute them entirely, this particular ranking methodology is going to, by definition, reward the "general ed" schools, especially the large ones and penalize the institutions of higher learning, especially small ones.
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2010 07:12 PM by Hambone10.)
09-07-2010 07:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
SumOfAllFears Offline
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
*

Posts: 18,213
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 58
I Root For: America
Location:
Post: #13
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 07:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 10:41 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Rice does not appear to fair too well on the general education curriculum.


Yes... We don't do "general education".

No credit given for Composition because the writing requirement consists of a university-administered composition examination, and only those students who do not receive a satisfactory score must take a writing course.

No credit given for Literature because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups.

No credit given for Foreign Language because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups

No credit given for U.S. Government or History because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution
groups.

No credit given for Economics because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups.

No credit given for Mathematics because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups

No credit given for Natural or Physical Science because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups



In other words, despite the fact that we offer many "specific" courses in several broad distribution groups... we don't offer a "general math" course. As a school where the Average SAT is well above average... we don't really see the value in re-enforcing what the students have already demonstrated they have mastered.

While I don't dispute them entirely, this particular ranking methodology is going to, by definition, reward the "general ed" schools, especially the large ones and penalize the institutions of higher learning, especially small ones.

So you agree, when it comes to a Rice "general education curriculum", it is non-existent.

Could you say "because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups." again, just to make sure I got it.
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2010 07:55 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
09-07-2010 07:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 40,279
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 1284
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #14
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 07:55 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  So you agree, when it comes to a Rice "general education curriculum", it is non-existent.

Could you say "because students may choose from among many narrow courses in several broad distribution groups." again, just to make sure I got it.

Lol

I really don't understand their complaint. No, we don't offer many "general education" courses... Our courses tend to be more targeted/indepth. We certainly do offer a math course or two that non-math majors wouldn't get buried in, and science courses that non-science majors would enjoy... but iirc, Calculus is our "basic" math class. We don't have college algebra (at least we didn't) because you had to have "college algebra equivalent" to get in. If you pass the English Composition test, you don't have to take Freshman English... but you can choose from a wide variety of english courses... and with few exceptions MUST choose from them to pass the "course distribution" requirement (Science majors must take a variety of liberal arts courses and vice versa... but statistics/accounting can count as "math" and sociology/psychology as "science")

but yeah... we're not the place for you if you want to take "math" and "english" and "science". Lots of big universities put 500+ in a class like that and use them as ways to weed out the weak.
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2010 09:35 PM by Hambone10.)
09-07-2010 08:37 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DrTorch Offline
Proved mach and GTS to be liars
*

Posts: 35,887
Joined: Jun 2002
Reputation: 201
I Root For: ASU, BGSU
Location:

CrappiesDonatorsBalance of Power Contest
Post: #15
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-07-2010 08:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  but yeah... we're not the place for you if you want to take "math" and "english" and "science".

That doesn't leave a whole lot, does it? 03-wink
09-08-2010 08:39 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #16
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
Bottom line--if you need the basics, Rice is not the place for you. Neither is Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, Northwestern, Princeton, or any of several other places that score pretty badly in that metric.
09-08-2010 10:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 40,279
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 1284
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #17
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
(09-08-2010 08:39 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-07-2010 08:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  but yeah... we're not the place for you if you want to take "math" and "english" and "science".

That doesn't leave a whole lot, does it? 03-wink

yeah, funny guy. 04-cheers

I just looked this up... Our only "freshman" (100 level) course in English is

175 GLOBAL LITERATURES IN ENGLISH

Math 101 is SINGLE VARIABLE CALCULUS I

and there are a variety of Science classes, but one Freshman level class is:

Biology 112 BIONANOTECHNOLOGY

We DO have a 101 General Chemistry class. I think we got robbed there

geez I'm glad I graduated many years ago
09-08-2010 01:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Motown Bronco Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,758
Joined: Jul 2002
Reputation: 211
I Root For: WMU
Location: Metro Detroit
Post: #18
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
More from the Economist:

http://www.economist.com/node/16941775
09-09-2010 08:12 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Lord Stanley Offline
L'Étoile du Nord
*

Posts: 19,103
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation: 994
I Root For: NIU
Location: Cold. So cold......
Post: #19
RE: More on the higher ed bubble
I wish the bubble already burst, because I just made the first payment for my wife's M.Ed. classes at (insert expensive Minneapolis / St.Paul private university.)

04-jawdrop
09-09-2010 09:13 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.