Hey Big East Fans. Baylor Bear fan here with my take on things.

1- You guys are seriously at risk in expansion as we are if 6 leave. I can post the NCAA bylaws but the NCAA autobid rules currently can be summed up as:
- You need 6 division 1 members that have played for 2 years together
- You have a 2 year grace period to re-establish this if you fall to 5
- This is thrown out the window if you fall below 5 division one members

With Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn, WVU, and Pitt all having been rumored as expansion options its not very comfortable for UofL, Cincy, and USF at all.

This is why I think Nova to FBS makes sense. They are small and won't add too much money in a tv deal but if they keep the remaining schools in a better position to keep raking in around 1.8 million (17mil from BCS - allowances for BCS travel divided 8 or 9 ways) they more than earn their keep.

If they are truly the only school the hoops teams sign off on adding to the pigskin league it should be a no brainer IMO.

2- I heard reports that if you lost 2 schools that the BE would split.
a) Is this true?
b) If so would the BE not exist and lose its bid?
c) Which half of the league keeps the NCAA credits for hoops?

I have a lot of respect for you guys and hope the season goes well.

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  Hey Big East Fans. Baylor Bear fan here with my take on things.

1- You guys are seriously at risk in expansion as we are if 6 leave. I can post the NCAA bylaws but the NCAA autobid rules currently can be summed up as:
- You need 6 division 1 members that have played for 2 years together
- You have a 2 year grace period to re-establish this if you fall to 5
- This is thrown out the window if you fall below 5 division one members

The NCAA is dropping those rules with the next years' revisions, as the rules were intended to prevent schools form moving up to DI and forming a new league. Instead, the NCAA will now require new DI schools to pay $1 Million and require a bid from an existing conference to move up.

Furthermore, since the Big East has eight non-football playing members, even if the conference continuity 7/6/5 rule applied, there would not have been an issue.

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  Hey Big East Fans. Baylor Bear fan here with my take on things.

1- You guys are seriously at risk in expansion as we are if 6 leave. I can post the NCAA bylaws but the NCAA autobid rules currently can be summed up as:
- You need 6 division 1 members that have played for 2 years together
- You have a 2 year grace period to re-establish this if you fall to 5
- This is thrown out the window if you fall below 5 division one members

The NCAA is dropping those rules with the next years' revisions, as the rules were intended to prevent schools form moving up to DI and forming a new league. Instead, the NCAA will now require new DI schools to pay $1 Million and require a bid from an existing conference to move up.

Furthermore, since the Big East has eight non-football playing members, even if the conference continuity 7/6/5 rule applied, there would not have been an issue.

1- Where do you see they are dropping those rules? I would love to see where as it impacts my school. These rules are for autobid retention, not gaining a bid so I don't see where schools moving up from D2 applies as Nova would clearly have a bid from the BE and are D1 albeit fcs.

2- The eight hoops schools won't save a bcs bid as its 2 years in the applicable sport. Whether they played hoops for 50 years is irrellevant for football.[/b]

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  This is why I think Nova to FBS makes sense. They are small and won't add too much money in a tv deal but if they keep the remaining schools in a better position to keep raking in around 1.8 million (17mil from BCS - allowances for BCS travel divided 8 or 9 ways) they more than earn their keep.

Nova has shown absolutely no interest in elevating their football program to FBS. It's a non-starter. There's no interest.

Nova really doesn't have a big enough school to generate the interest needed in a FBS program. Nor do they have the facilities.

(08-02-2010 11:57 AM)ej6687 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  This is why I think Nova to FBS makes sense. They are small and won't add too much money in a tv deal but if they keep the remaining schools in a better position to keep raking in around 1.8 million (17mil from BCS - allowances for BCS travel divided 8 or 9 ways) they more than earn their keep.

Nova has shown absolutely no interest in elevating their football program to FBS. It's a non-starter. There's no interest.

Nova really doesn't have a big enough school to generate the interest needed in a FBS program. Nor do they have the facilities.

I saw rumors that their jumping up was being heavily considered. Not terribly credible but worthy of discussion.

(08-02-2010 11:30 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  Hey Big East Fans. Baylor Bear fan here with my take on things.

1- You guys are seriously at risk in expansion as we are if 6 leave. I can post the NCAA bylaws but the NCAA autobid rules currently can be summed up as:
- You need 6 division 1 members that have played for 2 years together
- You have a 2 year grace period to re-establish this if you fall to 5
- This is thrown out the window if you fall below 5 division one members

The NCAA is dropping those rules with the next years' revisions, as the rules were intended to prevent schools form moving up to DI and forming a new league. Instead, the NCAA will now require new DI schools to pay $1 Million and require a bid from an existing conference to move up.

Furthermore, since the Big East has eight non-football playing members, even if the conference continuity 7/6/5 rule applied, there would not have been an issue.

1- Where do you see they are dropping those rules? I would love to see where as it impacts my school. These rules are for autobid retention, not gaining a bid so I don't see where schools moving up from D2 applies as Nova would clearly have a bid from the BE and are D1 albeit fcs.

2- The eight hoops schools won't save a bcs bid as its 2 years in the applicable sport. Whether they played hoops for 50 years is irrellevant for football.[/b]

The proposed new rules are here:
See Page 14

If the Big12 drops below 5 members, but then adds to get back to 7 (for basketball) or 8 (to maintain voting FBS conference status in the NCAA, which is not relevant to the BCS), it will now satisfy the conference criteria. Under the old rules, the Big 12 would likely have lost it's autobid status if the Pac16 had happened.

The old rules would have allowed a conference split to occur, and each half obtaining an autobid. Now, under the new rules a split becomes much more difficult, as a split-off conference must sponsor sports for eight years before it can be granted auto bids. The new rules may be a major reason that a Big East split no longer seems inevitable.

(08-02-2010 12:17 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:30 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  Hey Big East Fans. Baylor Bear fan here with my take on things.

1- You guys are seriously at risk in expansion as we are if 6 leave. I can post the NCAA bylaws but the NCAA autobid rules currently can be summed up as:
- You need 6 division 1 members that have played for 2 years together
- You have a 2 year grace period to re-establish this if you fall to 5
- This is thrown out the window if you fall below 5 division one members

The NCAA is dropping those rules with the next years' revisions, as the rules were intended to prevent schools form moving up to DI and forming a new league. Instead, the NCAA will now require new DI schools to pay $1 Million and require a bid from an existing conference to move up.

Furthermore, since the Big East has eight non-football playing members, even if the conference continuity 7/6/5 rule applied, there would not have been an issue.

1- Where do you see they are dropping those rules? I would love to see where as it impacts my school. These rules are for autobid retention, not gaining a bid so I don't see where schools moving up from D2 applies as Nova would clearly have a bid from the BE and are D1 albeit fcs.

2- The eight hoops schools won't save a bcs bid as its 2 years in the applicable sport. Whether they played hoops for 50 years is irrellevant for football.[/b]

The proposed new rules are here:
See Page 14

If the Big12 drops below 5 members, but then adds to get back to 7 (for basketball) or 8 (to maintain voting FBS conference status in the NCAA, which is not relevant to the BCS), it will now satisfy the conference criteria. Under the old rules, the Big 12 would likely have lost it's autobid status if the Pac16 had happened.

The old rules would have allowed a conference split to occur, and each half obtaining an autobid. Now, under the new rules a split becomes much more difficult, as a split-off conference must sponsor sports for eight years before it can be granted auto bids. The new rules may be a major reason that a Big East split no longer seems inevitable.

Thanks for the link. That answers the split question and makes it unlikely. However it doesn't keep the BE from losing its football bid in the event of a 4 team raid as you need 6 schools with continuity of membership in that sport and you currently have 8. Losing 4 drops you below the protection of the 5 team exception "grace period".

Big 12 would have lost its hoops autobid but retained the better football bid as long as 5 remained. The hoops bid would have been gone for 5 years but the league would get teams in the tourney anyways and got it back in 5 with no sweat. Maybe a bubble team in the conference gets left out, at worst.

(08-02-2010 12:38 PM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 12:17 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:30 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:16 AM)Sammy11 Wrote:  Hey Big East Fans. Baylor Bear fan here with my take on things.

1- You guys are seriously at risk in expansion as we are if 6 leave. I can post the NCAA bylaws but the NCAA autobid rules currently can be summed up as:
- You need 6 division 1 members that have played for 2 years together
- You have a 2 year grace period to re-establish this if you fall to 5
- This is thrown out the window if you fall below 5 division one members

The NCAA is dropping those rules with the next years' revisions, as the rules were intended to prevent schools form moving up to DI and forming a new league. Instead, the NCAA will now require new DI schools to pay $1 Million and require a bid from an existing conference to move up.

Furthermore, since the Big East has eight non-football playing members, even if the conference continuity 7/6/5 rule applied, there would not have been an issue.

1- Where do you see they are dropping those rules? I would love to see where as it impacts my school. These rules are for autobid retention, not gaining a bid so I don't see where schools moving up from D2 applies as Nova would clearly have a bid from the BE and are D1 albeit fcs.

2- The eight hoops schools won't save a bcs bid as its 2 years in the applicable sport. Whether they played hoops for 50 years is irrellevant for football.[/b]

The proposed new rules are here:
See Page 14

If the Big12 drops below 5 members, but then adds to get back to 7 (for basketball) or 8 (to maintain voting FBS conference status in the NCAA, which is not relevant to the BCS), it will now satisfy the conference criteria. Under the old rules, the Big 12 would likely have lost it's autobid status if the Pac16 had happened.

The old rules would have allowed a conference split to occur, and each half obtaining an autobid. Now, under the new rules a split becomes much more difficult, as a split-off conference must sponsor sports for eight years before it can be granted auto bids. The new rules may be a major reason that a Big East split no longer seems inevitable.

Thanks for the link. That answers the split question and makes it unlikely. However it doesn't keep the BE from losing its football bid in the event of a 4 team raid as you need 6 schools with continuity of membership in that sport and you currently have 8. Losing 4 drops you below the protection of the 5 team exception "grace period".

Big 12 would have lost its hoops autobid but retained the better football bid as long as 5 remained. The hoops bid would have been gone for 5 years but the league would get teams in the tourney anyways and got it back in 5 with no sweat. Maybe a bubble team in the conference gets left out, at worst.

The NCAA is totally dropping continuity of individual school membership as a conference criteria. Continuity of a conference will be the issue. (i.e. a conference of 8 teams - seven more get invited but seven leave - maintains continuity because the conference itself remains intact.) The Big 12 even if down to only KU, KSU, BU, and ISU, would have retained it's conference status in the NCAA as long as it added members, as the rules go in effect in 2011.

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The NCAA is totally dropping continuity of individual school membership as a conference criteria. Continuity of a conference will be the issue. (i.e. a conference of 8 teams - seven more get invited but seven leave - maintains continuity because the conference itself remains intact.) The Big 12 even if down to only KU, KSU, BU, and ISU, would have retained it's conference status in the NCAA as long as it added members, as the rules go in effect in 2011.

I hope you are right as that is great news but the continuity I referenced in the NCAA bylaws was not continuity of a conference being able to keep its status as a conference, it was recognition of that league's autobid. I posted the relevant bylaws below. I just don't see where the changes you posted conflict with this. I hope you are right but please show me where it affects the bylaws below as the rules I see in the link you posted provides more general rules as the link below sets a specific standard I assume would overrule the general standard.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D110.pdf

Quote:31.3.4.4.1 Multi-Sport Conference. To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in a particular sport, a multi-sport conference must include six core institutions that satisfy continuity-of-membership. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding two years in the applicable sport. There shall be no exceptions to the two-year period. Any new member added to a conference that satisfies the continuity of membership requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 4/27/00, 10/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 8/5/04)

BUT:

Quote:31.3.4.4.3 Grace Period. A conference shall remain eligible for automatic qualification for two years following the date of withdrawal of the institution(s) that causes the conference’s membership to fall below six institutions, or below six members with continuity of membership, provided the conference maintains at least five Division I members. (Adopted: 8/5/04

The closest thing I find is on page 15 of your link regarding core conferences however interpreting g-3 on page 15 would mean that the WAC, MWC, Sun Belt, CUSA, and MAC would be 'eligible' for AQ.

Once again I don't mean to needlessly argue but would love to be proven wrong here if it is the case.

(08-02-2010 01:03 PM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The NCAA is totally dropping continuity of individual school membership as a conference criteria. Continuity of a conference will be the issue. (i.e. a conference of 8 teams - seven more get invited but seven leave - maintains continuity because the conference itself remains intact.) The Big 12 even if down to only KU, KSU, BU, and ISU, would have retained it's conference status in the NCAA as long as it added members, as the rules go in effect in 2011.

I hope you are right as that is great news but the continuity I referenced in the NCAA bylaws was not continuity of a conference being able to keep its status as a conference, it was recognition of that league's autobid. I posted the relevant bylaws below. I just don't see where the changes you posted conflict with this. I hope you are right but please show me where it affects the bylaws below as the rules I see in the link you posted provides more general rules as the link below sets a specific standard I assume would overrule the general standard.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D110.pdf

Quote:31.3.4.4.1 Multi-Sport Conference. To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in a particular sport, a multi-sport conference must include six core institutions that satisfy continuity-of-membership. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding two years in the applicable sport. There shall be no exceptions to the two-year period. Any new member added to a conference that satisfies the continuity of membership requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 4/27/00, 10/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 8/5/04)

BUT:

Quote:31.3.4.4.3 Grace Period. A conference shall remain eligible for automatic qualification for two years following the date of withdrawal of the institution(s) that causes the conference’s membership to fall below six institutions, or below six members with continuity of membership, provided the conference maintains at least five Division I members. (Adopted: 8/5/04

The closest thing I find is on page 15 of your link regarding core conferences however interpreting g-3 on page 15 would mean that the WAC, MWC, Sun Belt, CUSA, and MAC would be 'eligible' for AQ.

Once again I don't mean to needlessly argue but would love to be proven wrong here if it is the case.

Current bylaws will be superseded by the the guidelines shown in the linked attachment - which have not yet been written in bylaw form. The Big 12 could have lost it's men's BB as well as other autobids under the old rule if the Pac16 was birthed. What the NCAA truly wanted to prevent was granting new auto-bids for a conference like the Great West or new autobids for conferences splitting. The old rules were 7 Division I "active" member must be together, with six "core" members together for five years: which was known as the 7/6/5 rule for a men's basketball autobid.

The rule you noted (Bylaw 31.3.4.4.1) was for sports other than football and men's basketball and will also be modified. The rules for men's basketball were different (7/6/5 rule) and also are being modified according to the guidelines in the linked attachment.

In the future, as long as a conference does not dissolve but adequately replenishes its membership ranks with core Division I members according to the conference continuity requirements, it will retain all it's autobids.
The definition of core and active members is also being modified.

The NCAA rule changes may have effectively ended talks of the Big East splitting. It also appears to render the formation of new conferences from disillusioned members of other conferences nearly impossible.

Post-collapse Big East will always have C*USA. An FBS Villanova adds nothing to Big East football that Memphis can't. If they really did fall to 4 teams (UC, UL, USF, UConn? WVU?) then it will be C*USA all over again for them anyways.

(08-02-2010 02:53 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 01:03 PM)Sammy11 Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 11:25 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The NCAA is totally dropping continuity of individual school membership as a conference criteria. Continuity of a conference will be the issue. (i.e. a conference of 8 teams - seven more get invited but seven leave - maintains continuity because the conference itself remains intact.) The Big 12 even if down to only KU, KSU, BU, and ISU, would have retained it's conference status in the NCAA as long as it added members, as the rules go in effect in 2011.

I hope you are right as that is great news but the continuity I referenced in the NCAA bylaws was not continuity of a conference being able to keep its status as a conference, it was recognition of that league's autobid. I posted the relevant bylaws below. I just don't see where the changes you posted conflict with this. I hope you are right but please show me where it affects the bylaws below as the rules I see in the link you posted provides more general rules as the link below sets a specific standard I assume would overrule the general standard.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productd...s/D110.pdf

Quote:31.3.4.4.1 Multi-Sport Conference. To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in a particular sport, a multi-sport conference must include six core institutions that satisfy continuity-of-membership. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding two years in the applicable sport. There shall be no exceptions to the two-year period. Any new member added to a conference that satisfies the continuity of membership requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier. (Revised: 4/27/00, 10/00, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 8/5/04)

BUT:

Quote:31.3.4.4.3 Grace Period. A conference shall remain eligible for automatic qualification for two years following the date of withdrawal of the institution(s) that causes the conference’s membership to fall below six institutions, or below six members with continuity of membership, provided the conference maintains at least five Division I members. (Adopted: 8/5/04

The closest thing I find is on page 15 of your link regarding core conferences however interpreting g-3 on page 15 would mean that the WAC, MWC, Sun Belt, CUSA, and MAC would be 'eligible' for AQ.

Once again I don't mean to needlessly argue but would love to be proven wrong here if it is the case.

Current bylaws will be superseded by the the guidelines shown in the linked attachment - which have not yet been written in bylaw form. The Big 12 could have lost it's men's BB as well as other autobids under the old rule if the Pac16 was birthed. What the NCAA truly wanted to prevent was granting new auto-bids for a conference like the Great West or new autobids for conferences splitting. The old rules were 7 Division I "active" member must be together, with six "core" members together for five years: which was known as the 7/6/5 rule for a men's basketball autobid.

The rule you noted (Bylaw 31.3.4.4.1) was for sports other than football and men's basketball and will also be modified. The rules for men's basketball were different (7/6/5 rule) and also are being modified according to the guidelines in the linked attachment.

In the future, as long as a conference does not dissolve but adequately replenishes its membership ranks with core Division I members according to the conference continuity requirements, it will retain all it's autobids.
The definition of core and active members is also being modified.

The NCAA rule changes may have effectively ended talks of the Big East splitting. It also appears to render the formation of new conferences from disillusioned members of other conferences nearly impossible.

You are correct on 7/6/5 and that is noted.

I do not believe that the rule doesn't apply to mens football. There are additional rules for hoops only conferences but as far as football it seems that all the other allowances I see in section 18 either do not apply or point to section 31 above. Football autobid would be the 6/5/2 rule unless I am mistaken.
Do you see a place where it says football is not included under that rule?


Now if these new rules supersede the old:
In the event that only 2 or 3 remained, if they added enough schools the BCS autobid could be retained in football?

(08-02-2010 04:09 PM)GreenMississippi Wrote:  Post-collapse Big East will always have C*USA. An FBS Villanova adds nothing to Big East football that Memphis can't. If they really did fall to 4 teams (UC, UL, USF, UConn? WVU?) then it will be C*USA all over again for them anyways.

1- C-USA is a fallback. However the 17 million per year BCS autobid makes a big difference financially if they can hold it and increases exposure and prestige. The payout per school in an 8 team league from BCS funds alone (Over 1.8 million annually) is more than double the C-USA tv share annually. (900,000)

2- The only reason I listed Nova is they don't have to be added as they technically are a member and may get past the hoops school voting bloc that shoots down potential invites. The offer very little otherwise but if they are the 17 million dollar difference the football schools will deal with it.

'Nova would be factoring into the BCS auto-bid qualifications for the Big East. After losing their best teams the BE would fall far behind the MWC and perhaps even C*USA. The BCS would be seriously considering pulling that $17 million from the BE.

(08-02-2010 04:29 PM)GreenMississippi Wrote:  'Nova would be factoring into the BCS auto-bid qualifications for the Big East. After losing their best teams the BE would fall far behind the MWC and perhaps even C*USA. The BCS would be seriously considering pulling that $17 million from the BE.

1- That is true that it would be a tough keep, but keeping it and hopefully making the right additions to get those wins back up (like UofL, Cincy, and USF last time) if preferable to losing it at the outset. Easier to keep it than regain it as the MWC is learning.
2- They may lose their weakest fb teams if RU and SU are gone. Just because you aren't a tv power doesn't mean you aren't better on the field.
3- Also the BCS has an established review process which they use. With the right additions at least of UH, ECU, and TCU (if they can get them) I feel the BE could easily meet the hurdle as 3 very good members are almost certain to be left over right now. (UL, Cincy, USF) UL is having a hard time right now but with Jurich and their facilities they will win again. Add in one of WVU, Pitt, or UConn and you have 4 good, 1 bad, with more good on the way. They'd be fine although Nova is far from a home run. Nova is good at the FCS level so its not like they are adding complete on the field deadweight.

(08-02-2010 04:29 PM)GreenMississippi Wrote:  'Nova would be factoring into the BCS auto-bid qualifications for the Big East. After losing their best teams the BE would fall far behind the MWC and perhaps even C*USA. The BCS would be seriously considering pulling that $17 million from the BE.

Sagarin which is used in the BCS calculations has Villanova ranked many spots higher than the closest CUSA team, so no, there would be little possibility of VU's addition dropping the BE lower than CUSA. If a couple of teams leave there won't be a Big East football conference and it won't matter anymore.

(08-02-2010 04:44 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  

(08-02-2010 04:29 PM)GreenMississippi Wrote:  'Nova would be factoring into the BCS auto-bid qualifications for the Big East. After losing their best teams the BE would fall far behind the MWC and perhaps even C*USA. The BCS would be seriously considering pulling that $17 million from the BE.

Sagarin which is used in the BCS calculations has Villanova ranked many spots higher than the closest CUSA team, so no, there would be little possibility of VU's addition dropping the BE lower than CUSA. If a couple of teams leave there won't be a Big East football conference and it won't matter anymore.

Buckaineer- What evidence do you have of the BE going kaput if 2 schools leave? NoDak's link to the above rules would indicate that splitting seems foolish. Why would the football league cease to exist?