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Clean, green and expensive
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Clean, green and expensive
The oil industry tax breaks have always had two primary purposes:
1. To keep the cost of oil and oil-based products low.
2. To foster domestic exploration and production (E&P) by subsidizing its costs compared to cheaper foreign production.

This largely represents political decisions made during the 30s, 40s, and 50s (FDR, Truman, and Ike, plus the powerful congressional democrats from oil-producing states, like LBJ and Rayburn) that American industry and jobs would benefit from cheaper energy that would partly offset the greater internal distances that had to be covered here compared to Europe, and also that more domestic production would also create jobs. So, we ended up subsidizing oil while Europe taxed it.

As Reagan said, if you want less of something tax it, and if you want more of something subsidize it. Predictably, significantly cheaper energy here led to development of a lifestyle that depended far more than energy (we use somewhere between 1.5 to 2 times as much energy per capita, compared to European countries with per capita incomes around 90% of ours, or higher). Times have changed, and in this era of global warming, tension in areas that we depend upon for oil, and the economic drain of shipping so many dollars abroad, the policies of the 30s, 40s, and 50s need to be revisited.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, those tax breaks really don't impact oil company net incomes. Corporations just look at taxes as a cost of doing businesses and set prices to recover those costs plus their target margins, which in the energy industry tend to be fairly low, particularly considering the high risk level on the E&P side. So long as every company in the industry faces pretty much the same tax structure, whatever taxes they face (or escape) are just passed through to customers in the price of products. They'll pretty much still make the same profit no matter what; what will change is the price they sell it to us in order to make that profit.

If the tax breaks were removed tomorrow, we'd probably see substantially higher prices at the pump and some marginal reduction in consumption (which would be good things IMO, as we're not going to get to alternatives until the price of oil products rises appreciably), and a greater shift from domestic to foreign sources for what oil we do use (which would be bad from the economic, environmental, and defense/foreign policy standpoints). It's a bit of an art to traverse the mine field in a way that does more good than harm, but it is possible. If the negative economic impacts are offset by tax reductions elsewhere, and the offshoring of more E&P activities is not exacerbated, we could actually be better off. Over time, we would adapt to using oil in a more European fashion--more public transport, higher mileage cars, more alternative fuels, use of electric powered trains instead of diesel trains/trucks for more long-haul shipping, smaller houses, more tolerance for indoor temperature fluctuations, to name a few impacts.

The picture that is emerging from the Mississippi Canyon 252 hearings in congress is of a perfect storm of keystone kops errors. Everybody involved appears to have been ludicrously delinquent. I simply do not believe that the number and severity of errors could happen in a place like Norway or New Zealand or Brasil (which allow more offshore drilling than we do, under much tougher standards). We need to move more toward their approach. The worst thing we could do would be to let a what is looking more and more like the inevitable consequence of a rogue operation cause us to implement policies that will cripple us. Adoption of tougher standards will result in higher prices at the pump and will tend to push more production offshore. We need to allow the first to happen, and offset the second elsewhere.
05-13-2010 06:21 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Oily, dead and expensive
(05-12-2010 06:03 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(05-12-2010 12:17 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I was on the subject that you righties want to continue the "drill baby drill" policies and inevitable price rises/oil spills but whine about wind turbine's costs/minimal environmental impacts.

And you liberals want to "tax baby tax" and "spend baby spend" but care not one iota on how hard us little folks, or the big ones, have to work to come up with the $$$ to subsidize your socialist, liberal, enverionmental spending spree.
Well S&M, YOUR tax dollars(along with mine) are going to be used cleaning up this mess. BP isn't going to pay to clean all of it up. If the price gets too high, all they have to do is file for bankruptcy and they will no longer obligated to pay anything more laying the burden on the tax payers..
05-13-2010 11:55 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Clean, green and expensive
(05-13-2010 04:56 AM)jh Wrote:  
(05-12-2010 08:00 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(05-12-2010 05:31 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  This may be a rare occurrence but it's way worse than any accident that could occur from wind or solar. We're not where we need to be with alternative energies yet - while oil and coal are required now in large quantities we need to stop paying lip service to alternative energies and concentrate on research for improving alternate energy sources, otherwise we'll be in exactly the same situation 20 years from now. That research is a lot easier to fund or subsidize when the price of oil isn't held artificially low.

You missed the point NIU. Wind and solar don't need accidents to be expensive. They are expensive anyway. Even when you factor in the cost of this horrible accident to the cost of oil, it doesn't make it nearly as expensive as wind and solar. I'm not happy that this is the case, because I'd LOVE to not be dependent on foriegn oil... but it is unfortunately the case.

I'm interested in how/why/who you think is artificially keeping the price of oil down?

Here are some of the who & how - I bet there's more too. I imagine the why is the same as all the others - concentrated benefits for a few & diffuse costs for the many.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6103RM20100201
Quote:The industry tax breaks that would be lost include: deductions for certain drilling costs, tax credits for low-volume oil and gas wells and a manufacturing tax deduction for oil and gas companies....

The changes would take effect on January 1, 2011, and save $36.5 billion over 10 years, according to the budget proposal.

Another thing I've seen pointed out is limiting the liablity of oil companies for spills to $75 million dollars instead of the actual damages (they do have to pay the full cost of containment & clean up).
Actually, I will laugh if all they do is the 75 million. All these righties who wanted "tort reform" now may come bck to bite them in the ass. Make no mistake, they WILL complain when it is one of them who is shorted on compensation.
05-13-2010 12:05 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Clean, green and expensive
(05-13-2010 12:05 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
Quote:Another thing I've seen pointed out is limiting the liablity of oil companies for spills to $75 million dollars instead of the actual damages (they do have to pay the full cost of containment & clean up).
Actually, I will laugh if all they do is the 75 million. All these righties who wanted "tort reform" now may come bck to bite them in the ***. Make no mistake, they WILL complain when it is one of them who is shorted on compensation.

The liability limit has nothing to do with tort reform. It's a cap on the amount that an oil company will have to pay in actual damages (again, not counting the costs of containment & clean up). As far as I know no tort reform program is intended to limit actual damage awards. Rather they are aimed at the punitive damage side of the equation.

*** Edited to fix the quote tags
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2010 03:46 PM by jh.)
05-13-2010 03:17 PM
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moe24 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Clean, green and expensive
(05-13-2010 03:17 PM)jh Wrote:  
(05-13-2010 12:05 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Another thing I've seen pointed out is limiting the liablity of oil companies for spills to $75 million dollars instead of the actual damages (they do have to pay the full cost of containment & clean up).
Actually, I will laugh if all they do is the 75 million. All these righties who wanted "tort reform" now may come bck to bite them in the ***. Make no mistake, they WILL complain when it is one of them who is shorted on compensation.

The liability limit has nothing to do with tort reform. It's a cap on the amount that an oil company will have to pay in actual damages (again, not counting the costs of containment & clean up). As far as I know no tort reform program is intended to limit actual damage awards. Rather they are aimed at the punitive damage side of the equation.

You mean RobertN said something stupid and is completely ignorant of the subject he is blathering about? Excuse me while I make my "shocked" face...

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(This post was last modified: 05-13-2010 03:26 PM by moe24.)
05-13-2010 03:26 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Clean, green and expensive
(05-13-2010 04:56 AM)jh Wrote:  Here are some of the who & how - I bet there's more too. I imagine the why is the same as all the others - concentrated benefits for a few & diffuse costs for the many.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6103RM20100201
Quote:The industry tax breaks that would be lost include: deductions for certain drilling costs, tax credits for low-volume oil and gas wells and a manufacturing tax deduction for oil and gas companies....

The changes would take effect on January 1, 2011, and save $36.5 billion over 10 years, according to the budget proposal.

Another thing I've seen pointed out is limiting the liablity of oil companies for spills to $75 million dollars instead of the actual damages (they do have to pay the full cost of containment & clean up).


Thank you.
I'd guess that this is aimed at US production and really doesn't impact global production. While the subsidies encourage domestic exploration, they don't really have much impact on the bigger issue, does it? I'm not saying it doesn't keep it down a bit... just that I doubt we're talking about all that much. We use 20mm bb/day... 7.25byn/yr and the subsidy is 3.7byn/yr ... 50 cents a barrell?? Did I miss a decimal point or three somewhere?? Even if it were $5/bb... it wouldn't really be that much. It'd have to be $50 to make most alternatives (which are also subsidized) competitive. I don't know the math for oil/gal gas, but we have to be talking pennies.

I guess the point is, I'd rather have a similar (say ten cents) use tax that is used to encourage alternatives than to encourage less domestic production (which would only encourage foriegn exploration)

I mean, I wonder how this would be going if the blown well were operated by Pedevesa
05-13-2010 04:45 PM
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