(04-14-2010 12:52 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:58 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 06:46 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  If Iran is allowed to stand with nukes, we are in for a whole new round of nuclear proliferation. France, Russia and Pakistan have their dirty little fingers all over Iran's Nuke Development. There is no way it stops there. And all those Corp making parts turning a blind's eye to their sales. Just what the Dr. ordered for a bad economy. Nuclear proliferation is good for business. This is how evil finds a foothold. A tradgy of epic porportions is unfolding right before our eyes, like a freight train wreck in slow motion. There will be no one to blame when a nuke has no return address. Its all just a body count.

Yeah. If Iran got them that would mean Israel would have to get them. Oh wait. They already have them. Nevermind.

Israel ever said their intention was to drive another group of people into the sea?

Didn't think so. Point, you don't have one.

You are probably right but they have been TRYING to do it by FORCE WITHOUT saying it.

There would be no trying to it. If they WANTED to, they would do it. Your brain is just as numb as your nuts.

(04-14-2010 12:55 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:52 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:58 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 06:46 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  If Iran is allowed to stand with nukes, we are in for a whole new round of nuclear proliferation. France, Russia and Pakistan have their dirty little fingers all over Iran's Nuke Development. There is no way it stops there. And all those Corp making parts turning a blind's eye to their sales. Just what the Dr. ordered for a bad economy. Nuclear proliferation is good for business. This is how evil finds a foothold. A tradgy of epic porportions is unfolding right before our eyes, like a freight train wreck in slow motion. There will be no one to blame when a nuke has no return address. Its all just a body count.

Yeah. If Iran got them that would mean Israel would have to get them. Oh wait. They already have them. Nevermind.

Israel ever said their intention was to drive another group of people into the sea?

Didn't think so. Point, you don't have one.

You are probably right but they have been TRYING to do it by FORCE WITHOUT saying it.

There would be no trying to it. If they WANTED to, they would do it. Your brain is just as numb as your nuts.

Sure they could but if they did it in one big push, they know world opinion(likely even US) would be againsst them so they do it little by little and nobody notices.

(04-14-2010 01:02 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:55 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:52 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:58 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 06:46 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  If Iran is allowed to stand with nukes, we are in for a whole new round of nuclear proliferation. France, Russia and Pakistan have their dirty little fingers all over Iran's Nuke Development. There is no way it stops there. And all those Corp making parts turning a blind's eye to their sales. Just what the Dr. ordered for a bad economy. Nuclear proliferation is good for business. This is how evil finds a foothold. A tradgy of epic porportions is unfolding right before our eyes, like a freight train wreck in slow motion. There will be no one to blame when a nuke has no return address. Its all just a body count.

Yeah. If Iran got them that would mean Israel would have to get them. Oh wait. They already have them. Nevermind.

Israel ever said their intention was to drive another group of people into the sea?

Didn't think so. Point, you don't have one.

You are probably right but they have been TRYING to do it by FORCE WITHOUT saying it.

There would be no trying to it. If they WANTED to, they would do it. Your brain is just as numb as your nuts.

Sure they could but if they did it in one big push, they know world opinion(likely even US) would be againsst them so they do it little by little and nobody notices.

That's alright Robbie, just change your argument. No one will notice.

(04-14-2010 01:09 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 01:02 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:55 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:52 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:58 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 06:46 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  If Iran is allowed to stand with nukes, we are in for a whole new round of nuclear proliferation. France, Russia and Pakistan have their dirty little fingers all over Iran's Nuke Development. There is no way it stops there. And all those Corp making parts turning a blind's eye to their sales. Just what the Dr. ordered for a bad economy. Nuclear proliferation is good for business. This is how evil finds a foothold. A tradgy of epic porportions is unfolding right before our eyes, like a freight train wreck in slow motion. There will be no one to blame when a nuke has no return address. Its all just a body count.

Yeah. If Iran got them that would mean Israel would have to get them. Oh wait. They already have them. Nevermind.

Israel ever said their intention was to drive another group of people into the sea?

Didn't think so. Point, you don't have one.

You are probably right but they have been TRYING to do it by FORCE WITHOUT saying it.

There would be no trying to it. If they WANTED to, they would do it. Your brain is just as numb as your nuts.

Sure they could but if they did it in one big push, they know world opinion(likely even US) would be againsst them so they do it little by little and nobody notices.

That's alright Robbie, just change your argument. No one will notice.

Not trying to change anything whackjob. I said they are trying to push the Palestinians into the sea. That is what they are doing. Slowly pushing them into the sea.

(04-14-2010 01:15 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Not trying to change anything whackjob. I said they are trying to push the Palestinians into the sea. That is what they are doing. Slowly pushing them into the sea.

No they aren't, fruitcake.

The problem with Israel and the Palestinians is simple. There's not enough there to support two states. You can't split it up equitably, because that leaves both sides without enough to be able to survive. Netanyahu understands that. The Palestinian leadership understands that.

Why don't we?

(04-14-2010 11:53 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:16 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(04-13-2010 09:20 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 10:51 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  My guess is that Israel comes clean and publicly announces their long established defensive nuclear weapons program.

They have no real reason to - not anymore now than before. Perhaps they have less of an incentive to avoid acknowledging it.

Tell me more. I feel the opposite and want to better understand your notes.....

Their policy is ambiguity. Everyone that needs to believe that they have nuclear weapons believes it and acts accordingly. They are under no treaty obligations to disclose or open facilities for inspections. As far as national pariahs grow, they're unlikely to eclipse Iran at this stage. The status quo wrt how the world views their nuclear presence has served them well, so why would they change? It seems to me the burden is on you to make that case.

The current Obama Administration has showed that allies are no longer allies and seemingly our enemies deserve bows and accolades.

Obama is certainly keeping Netanyahu off balance, and further isolating Isreal. Obama's current push for NPT also puts the US / Israeli special nuclear understanding in jeopardy, plus without the US (currently) in place to run interferance in all things anti-Israel, Middle Easter despots could start to militarily push on Israel (see recent Iranian deliveries of SCUDs to Hezbollah.)

All this lends me to believe that Israel will come out and declare their defensive and offensive nuclear capabilities.

I just hope they don't overplay their cards.

(04-14-2010 01:15 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 01:09 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 01:02 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:55 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 12:52 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:58 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 06:46 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  If Iran is allowed to stand with nukes, we are in for a whole new round of nuclear proliferation. France, Russia and Pakistan have their dirty little fingers all over Iran's Nuke Development. There is no way it stops there. And all those Corp making parts turning a blind's eye to their sales. Just what the Dr. ordered for a bad economy. Nuclear proliferation is good for business. This is how evil finds a foothold. A tradgy of epic porportions is unfolding right before our eyes, like a freight train wreck in slow motion. There will be no one to blame when a nuke has no return address. Its all just a body count.

Yeah. If Iran got them that would mean Israel would have to get them. Oh wait. They already have them. Nevermind.

Israel ever said their intention was to drive another group of people into the sea?

Didn't think so. Point, you don't have one.

You are probably right but they have been TRYING to do it by FORCE WITHOUT saying it.

There would be no trying to it. If they WANTED to, they would do it. Your brain is just as numb as your nuts.

Sure they could but if they did it in one big push, they know world opinion(likely even US) would be againsst them so they do it little by little and nobody notices.

That's alright Robbie, just change your argument. No one will notice.

Not trying to change anything whackjob. I said they are trying to push the Palestinians into the sea. That is what they are doing. Slowly pushing them into the sea.

What country expelled the Palestinians from it's borders in 1970? Hint: It's the Palestinian's traditional homeland and another ...it ain't Israel.

(04-14-2010 01:15 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said they are trying to push the Palestinians into the sea. That is what they are doing. Slowly pushing them into the sea.

As evidenced by the withdrawal from Gaza and repeated offers for peace which the Islamist side consistently refuses to respond to with a counter offer. You make a very good case based purely on your own whims, backed up by the islamist voices in your ears and your imagination.

(04-14-2010 01:44 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 11:53 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-14-2010 10:16 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(04-13-2010 09:20 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 10:51 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  My guess is that Israel comes clean and publicly announces their long established defensive nuclear weapons program.

They have no real reason to - not anymore now than before. Perhaps they have less of an incentive to avoid acknowledging it.

Tell me more. I feel the opposite and want to better understand your notes.....

Their policy is ambiguity. Everyone that needs to believe that they have nuclear weapons believes it and acts accordingly. They are under no treaty obligations to disclose or open facilities for inspections. As far as national pariahs grow, they're unlikely to eclipse Iran at this stage. The status quo wrt how the world views their nuclear presence has served them well, so why would they change? It seems to me the burden is on you to make that case.

The current Obama Administration has showed that allies are no longer allies and seemingly our enemies deserve bows and accolades.

Obama is certainly keeping Netanyahu off balance, and further isolating Isreal. Obama's current push for NPT also puts the US / Israeli special nuclear understanding in jeopardy, plus without the US (currently) in place to run interferance in all things anti-Israel, Middle Easter despots could start to militarily push on Israel (see recent Iranian deliveries of SCUDs to Hezbollah.)

All this lends me to believe that Israel will come out and declare their defensive and offensive nuclear capabilities.

I just hope they don't overplay their cards.

Even with the incompetence that Obama has shown in managing the conflict, it is very unlikely that Israel would not be covered under the American nuclear umbrella. It's not clear to me that the special understanding would change. If Obama or his successors pushed for such a change, it would almost by necessity involve additional or permanent US troop commitments to the region, and I can't see that happening.

WRT SCUDS and other maneuvers by Iran to pour weapons into the region, that's an incremental change from what's been going on for several years, and could provoke a violent, bloody conflict in the next few years.

With all of this, I don't see a significant change if Israel decides to publicly talk about weapons it is universally already assumed that they have. On the flip side, there are a number of potential diplomatic stumbling blocks if they do acknowledge them, and those aren't significantly different in a post-nuclear-Iran world than they would have been before. So, basically, we don't seem to agree, but I'm not sure if we have enough perspective on all of the aspects of this issue to persuade one another.

In other news, did anyone see our favorite peacemaker advocating armed struggle against Israel (per the Muslim Brotherhood's official English website)?

Also, US warns Syria about Hezbollah-bound missiles

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...03300.html Wrote:US warns Syria about Hezbollah-bound missiles
WASHINGTON -- The White House says it has raised concerns with Syria about reports that the Middle East nation is providing Hezbollah with Scud missiles that could hit any part of Israel.

Press secretary Robert Gibbs said Wednesday the Obama administration has relayed concerns to the highest levels about weapons that could destabilize the region.

Israel this week accused Syria of giving Scud missiles to Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed militia.

Gibbs told reporters at the White House that the U.S. has an unbreakable bond with the Israeli people and in ensuring their security.

It is rumored that if Syria doesn't stand down, the US has threatened to spend 8-12 years negotiating with China before reaching an agreement to do something of no particular significance.

(04-14-2010 06:33 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  What country expelled the Palestinians from it's borders in 1970? Hint: It's the Palestinian's traditional homeland and another ...it ain't Israel.

To keep things simple enough for RobertN to google, see "Black September".

(04-12-2010 10:23 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 10:20 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I am resigned to a nuclear capable, unstable, religiously led Iranian theocracy being the new Middle Eastern hegemon.

Iran has beat the best American force projection (Iraq and Afghanistan) and the best American diplomacy (Bush and Obama) that the USA has to offer.

Time to start adapting our US foreign policy for the inevitable Iranian nuclear test and subsequent nuclear postuering.

Sigh.

Sadly I'm forced to agree. Neither the US or Europe has the stomach to deal with keeping nukes from Iran. Russia wants them to have one because it improves their power base. Iran getting a nuke would shoot oil prices through the roof, which is great for Russia.

That actually may be why we've had the policy against drilling in US reserves.

(04-15-2010 12:45 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 10:23 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 10:20 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I am resigned to a nuclear capable, unstable, religiously led Iranian theocracy being the new Middle Eastern hegemon.

Iran has beat the best American force projection (Iraq and Afghanistan) and the best American diplomacy (Bush and Obama) that the USA has to offer.

Time to start adapting our US foreign policy for the inevitable Iranian nuclear test and subsequent nuclear postuering.

Sigh.

Sadly I'm forced to agree. Neither the US or Europe has the stomach to deal with keeping nukes from Iran. Russia wants them to have one because it improves their power base. Iran getting a nuke would shoot oil prices through the roof, which is great for Russia.

That actually may be why we've had the policy against drilling in US reserves.

Any US economic recovery will be stomped by rising oil prices. OPEC will squeeze our nuts, and we just keep saying Harder, harder, please. <bow>