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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Bloom Boxes
Guys you are arguing the unarguable. It would benefit our society greatly if we can find an alternative resource. Move to Somalia.
02-22-2010 03:37 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 03:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Guys you are arguing the unarguable. It would benefit our society greatly if we can find an alternative resource. Move to Somalia.

..and who makes you the determinant? I'd say fossil fuels have benefited society greatly. It moved us out of the dark ages. You're jumping on board with some BS that's yet to be proven, like you did with the Global Warming BS. I'm all for searching for alternative fuels. We should always be vigilant in our search for other technologies. You don't, however, try to put one company out of business by taxing it to fund it's competitor. That is not America. YOU move to Somalia, or Cuba, where'd you'd fit in quite well.
02-22-2010 03:47 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 03:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Guys you are arguing the unarguable.

BTW, this sounds like that arrogant prick Gore on Global Warming, "Tha dabayt is over".
02-22-2010 03:49 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Bloom Boxes
You'd fit real well in the Libertarian paradise of Somalia. You keep your paycheck and your guns. No govt. breathing down your neck. You ought to try it.
02-22-2010 03:58 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 03:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You'd fit real well in the Libertarian paradise of Somalia. You keep your paycheck and your guns. No govt. breathing down your neck. You ought to try it.

That moonbat tactic of going to the extreme doesn't work on me, Mach. I've never said there wasn't a need for government. I just think it should be severely limited, I.e., like the founders. You'd fit in well in Cuba, where all aspects of your daily life are controlled. ....and you do espouse beliefs along those lines.
02-22-2010 04:37 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 03:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  ....because you green maggots won't let us utilize our own resources.


This has been pointed out to you ad nauseum. You are either TOO STUPID to realize it or keep forgetting it. Let me say this to you one more time.

Wait.......... Are you focused? Try to remember what I am about to tell you. ready

WE ARE USING MORE OIL THAN WE EVER COULD POSSIBLY EXTRACT!

Did that clear it up for you cupcake?

If congressman Rahall's staff's methodology is correct--you remember the report that said make the oil companies drill the areas already under lease before leasing more land--then actually the red zones on that map can produce more oil than current world consumption.

Of course, that's not right. Rahall is a liar. Someone should have called him on it. But I think the republicans are too dumb to do it.
02-22-2010 04:45 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 03:32 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Have we drilled in the red zones? If so, um, when? All you're stating is conjecture at this point, something you commonly do.


They are called Geological Surveys.

And they are pretty much meaningless. They really are.

You can never really know unless you drill. Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less, sometimes you find production that didn't show up on the geological survey. Brasil is doing that right now--see Tupi, Santos, and Espirito Santo. A generation ago, the geological surveys said there was no oil there. Today, each of the three is roughly the size of ANWR, on a barrel equivalency basis. And they are still looking at further step-outs.
02-22-2010 04:49 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Bloom Boxes
Brazil fights oil prices with alcohol
Sales of 'Flex' cars that run on alcohol or gasoline surpassed August sales of gasoline-only vehicles.

By Andrew Downie | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

RIO DE JANEIRO – Brazilians aren't waiting for high-priced hybrid cars.

The Christian Science Monitor from the October 07, 2005 edition



Drivers are fighting rising gasoline prices by buying "flex" or "flexible fuel" cars that slurp more alcohol. Alcohol made from sugar cane is becoming the fuel of choice in Brazil, and other countries - so much so that global sugar prices hit a seven-year high this week. Regular car engines will run fine on a 10 percent blend of alcohol and gasoline. But by using computer sensors that adjust to whatever mix is in the tank, flex car engines run on either ethanol, gasoline, or any combination of the two. And they have been roaring out of dealerships here since Volkswagen sold the first TotalFlex Golf in March 2003.

Today, flex cars are outselling traditional gasoline models. In August, 62 percent of new cars sold were flex, according to industry numbers. "Demand has been unbelievable," says Barry Engle, the new president of Ford Brasil. "I am hard-pressed to think of any other technology that has been such a success so quickly." As many countries reexamine their dependence on petroleum fields for fuel, Brazil offers a model for how to make the switch to cane, beet, wheat, or corn fields. The successful transition here comes down to many factors, but price is the primary one, experts say.

Unlike hybrids sold in the US, for example, flex cars sold in Brazil don't cost any more than traditional models. In fact, some models are only available with flex engines now. Ethanol engines use 25 percent more ethanol per mile than gasoline. But ethanol (the alcohol produced by fermenting sugar) usually sells at somewhere between a third to half of the price of gas. Even people who were reluctant to take the plunge and buy a flex say they have been won over by the savings.

"It's been a revelation because of the economy," says Madalena Lira, a university lecturer who says that she and her husband had reluctantly purchased a flex car because it was the only available version of the Fiat Palio Weekend they wanted. "I love this car in spite of it being a flex, not because it is a flex. The savings have been great. I'd certainly buy another one."

In addition to the savings, environmentally conscious drivers appreciate having a car that runs on a cleaner fuel, and some might even buy a flex car because they know it is good for the country's auto and sugar manufacturers. But today, two-and-a-half years into the flex experiment, another unforeseen advantage is emerging. "There is something curious that we are just starting to see," says Alfred Szwarc, an ethanol consultant with Sao Paulo's sugar cane association. "Gasoline powered cars lose more of their [resale] value than flex cars. People know that oil is finite and that it is going to get more and more expensive. They think that a gasoline-powered car is going to be more difficult to sell. They see flex cars as the car of the future."

Ethanol-powered cars are not new in Brazil. In a bid to cut the country's reliance on foreign oil imports and help their own sugar producers, Brazil's military government pushed alcohol-powered cars in the early 1980s. Gas stations across the country added ethanol pumps to the existing gasoline and diesel ones. Between 1983 and 1988 more than 88 percent of cars sold annually were running on a blend of ethanol and gasoline. This didn't last for long, though. The subsidies were withdrawn at the end of the decade, and cane farmers quickly realized they could get more from selling sugar than turning it into ethanol. When alcohol fuel shortages ensued it looked like the end of the road for ethanol engines as sales of the experimental cars plummeted.

That experience may have been a bitter one but it gave Brazilians a taste for alternative fuels that lingered. Although most people abandoned ethanol cars, many taxi drivers kept them because it was so much cheaper than a gas-only car. Then the country's Congress passed a law forcing oil companies to add small quantities of ethanol to their gasoline. That prompted car companies to experiment with an engine that would run on both fuels, and when they did, the flex car sales took off. "Why did this take off here?" asks Mr. Engle. "Because this isn't brand-new. Car buyers concerned about high gas prices or potential ethanol shortages no longer have to make a choice between the two. It used to be an either-or but now there's both and that gives consumers peace of mind and explains why Brazilians have embraced it."

The next task is convincing other nations to adopt the technology, industry experts said. With oil prices at a record high, there is a clear advantage to diluting gasoline or even substituting it, with sugar-based ethanol or one of the biofuel alternatives such as beets or corn. For most countries, the problem is the lack of ethanol production and a distribution system. Although many countries require oil companies to dilute their gasoline with ethanol (in Brazil, gas sold at the pumps is 25 percent ethanol; and some of the gas sold in the US, China, Australia and Canada is 10-15 percent ethanol), few actually make ethanol or manufacture flex vehicles, and even fewer have a network of gas stations with ethanol pumps. In the US - with about 4 million flex cars - there are 14 states without even one ethanol pump, says Robert White, project director for the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition.

With years of experience at every stage of the process, Brazil is in the pole position to help other nations' farmers grow crops, scientists refine it into fuel, or engineers produce the technology to make flex cars, says Rogelio Golfarb, president of Brazil's car makers association. "There is an enormous demand from abroad to know more," Mr. Golfarb says "This is an advantage and an opportunity for Brazil."



Why can Brazil do it but we can't??????????????? Why?????
02-22-2010 04:59 PM
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EastStang Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Bloom Boxes
First, I really am not one who looks at carbon as a friend or enemy. I do look at people who live in the Middle East as potential enemies. So, to the extent that we can ween ourselves off of oil so that the folks in the Middle East can go back into living in the dark ages if that's what they want, that's fine with me. The Bloom guy did say that his boxes could run on natural gas. But since I already heat my house with Natural gas, and cook with natural gas, my guess is that converting to a Bloom box would only be useful in the summertime when I air condition my house, but even then the power bills are no where near my winter gas bills and even then probably not cost effective. I am not a scientist, but why couldn't a small amount of non-renewable fuel be used to start the hydrogen reaction in water which starts the fuel reaction which then keeps the hydrogen reaction going. Sort of like jump starting an engine. In other words, why couldn't the energy from the fuel cells power a hydrogen reaction which in turn powers the fuel cells and they have some sort of symbiotic relationship. On the other hand how many people want a tank of hydrogen and a fuel cell sitting next to each other behind your house?
02-22-2010 05:09 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Bloom Boxes
I feel like 9,999 times out of 10,000 of these "revolutionary" power sources fizzle out (pun intended) once held up to the realities of the mass market.

Great, Ebay and the Google has a bloom box, but the chances of my little S Mpls bungalow getting one alongside the HVAC is somewhere between zero and none.

The promise of nuclear powered airplanes? Just around the corner AMIRITE?
02-22-2010 05:23 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 04:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Why can Brazil do it but we can't??????????????? Why?????

I'm actually writing a paper about this right now.

Make no mistake, the first thing Brasil can do that we can't is drill here, drill now. If they weren't doing that and big-time hydroelectric, in addition to ethanol, we wouldn't be hearing about their success story.

Actually, there are three lessons to be learned from the Brasil experience:

1. Go at it with everything--drilling, alternatives, conservation. Truth be known, Brasil didn't actually do much with conservation, but we will need to. We have a 13 million barrel a day imported oil problem; we can't solve that with any one approach. But we can get 4 million from drill here, drill now and more nukes (plus electric cars to use the nuke electricity); we can get 4 million from importing sugar cane ethanol from Latin America and solar and wind (plus electric cars to use the solar and wind electricity); and in 25-50 years, we can reduce demand by 4 million through conservation.
2. Go with the technology that works today instead of waiting on pie-in-the-sky stuff to come out of the lab; if that other stuff ever works, you can always convert. If it doesn't, you aren't left holding the bag for 25-50 years with nothing to show for it (like we are today). Their ethanol technology is primitive--they actually burn the cane stalks to power the process--but it works.
3. Rely on the private sector rather than government to get it done. A major key was privatizing Petrobras, which had been government-owned. OK, it wasn't totally privatized, the government kept a stake, but can't interfere in the private management. Another major key was opening up exploration to foreign competition, rather than keeping it as the private domain of Petrobras. And the Brasilian government has maintained a cooperative relationship with Petrobras--and with the foreign companies, too--instead of the adversarial relationship between government and industry that exists here.

Petrobras would come to the USA tomorrow, and bring their gasoline/ethanol model with them, if we would agree to lower the tariffs on their ethanol. But as long as the Iowa caucus leads the presidential season, that ain't happening.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2010 06:11 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-22-2010 05:25 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 05:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The promise of nuclear powered airplanes? Just around the corner AMIRITE?

A tad behind the times...

unless you already knew about this...
02-22-2010 06:05 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Bloom Boxes
Incidentally, Biofuels are an expensive waste

The Australian Wrote:US Department of Agriculture figures reveal that a quarter of the US cereals grown last year went for biofuel, turning cheap food into expensive fuel.

A paper on the 2007-08 food crisis by the World Bank Development Prospect Group, leaked in 2008, said US and EU biofuel production was responsible for 70 to 75 per cent of the food price rises, against 3 per cent admitted by the USDA.

The subsidies for biofuel are about political pandering, not cutting greenhouse gases. But despite a backlash against biofuels in 2008, they have fallen off the international agenda.

Biofuels from crops such as corn, sugar and palm oil have more than tripled since 2000. The US is to increase ethanol blending to 15 billion gallons (68 billion litres) by 2012 and 36 billion by 2022, up from 9 billion last year.

A recent report by Rice University (Texas) found the US spent $US4 billion ($4.5bn) on biofuel subsidies in 2008 to replace a mere 2 per cent of the US petrol supply. It estimates this costs taxpayers about $US82 a barrel, or $US1.95 a gallon more than the retail price of petrol.

The EU is no better, giving about €3.7bn ($5.6bn) in biofuel subsidies in 2007, aiming to replace 5.75 per cent of transport fuel by the end of 2010.

On top of wasted taxes and higher food prices, biofuels make little environmental sense - US and EU production can release more emissions than it avoids.

Nobel prize-winning chemist Paul J. Crutzen says: "For rapeseed biodiesel, which accounts for about 80 per cent of the biofuel production in Europe, the relative warming due to N2O (nitrous oxide) emissions is estimated at 1 to 1.7 times larger than the quasi-cooling effect due to saved fossil CO2 emissions. For corn bioethanol, dominant in the US, the figure is 0.9 to 1.5."

World food prices are taking a long time to fall (corn is still 50 per cent above its 2003-06 average), while the number of hungry people recently topped one billion.

Ethanol takes up 11 million hectares of the 36 million hectares of maize in the US, and from 2006 to 2008, the World Bank's food price index doubled.

If biofuel were about the environment, the US would not impose tariffs on environmentally friendly ethanol from Latin America and the Caribbean. And new EU tariffs are aimed at US producers, who send 95 per cent of their biofuel exports to Europe.

Nor do biofuels save energy - some varieties require as much to grow, transport and process as they release when burnt.

At oil prices below $US70 a barrel (the recent range is $US70-$US85), corn-based ethanol is about the same price at the pump as normal petroleum fuels - not counting what taxpayers have lost in subsidies.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2010 06:51 PM by I45owl.)
02-22-2010 06:50 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 05:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 04:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Why can Brazil do it but we can't??????????????? Why?????

I'm actually writing a paper about this right now.

Make no mistake, the first thing Brasil can do that we can't is drill here, drill now. If they weren't doing that and big-time hydroelectric, in addition to ethanol, we wouldn't be hearing about their success story.

Actually, there are three lessons to be learned from the Brasil experience:

1. Go at it with everything--drilling, alternatives, conservation. Truth be known, Brasil didn't actually do much with conservation, but we will need to. We have a 13 million barrel a day imported oil problem; we can't solve that with any one approach. But we can get 4 million from drill here, drill now and more nukes (plus electric cars to use the nuke electricity); we can get 4 million from importing sugar cane ethanol from Latin America and solar and wind (plus electric cars to use the solar and wind electricity); and in 25-50 years, we can reduce demand by 4 million through conservation.
2. Go with the technology that works today instead of waiting on pie-in-the-sky stuff to come out of the lab; if that other stuff ever works, you can always convert. If it doesn't, you aren't left holding the bag for 25-50 years with nothing to show for it (like we are today). Their ethanol technology is primitive--they actually burn the cane stalks to power the process--but it works.
3. Rely on the private sector rather than government to get it done. A major key was privatizing Petrobras, which had been government-owned. OK, it wasn't totally privatized, the government kept a stake, but can't interfere in the private management. Another major key was opening up exploration to foreign competition, rather than keeping it as the private domain of Petrobras. And the Brasilian government has maintained a cooperative relationship with Petrobras--and with the foreign companies, too--instead of the adversarial relationship between government and industry that exists here.

Petrobras would come to the USA tomorrow, and bring their gasoline/ethanol model with them, if we would agree to lower the tariffs on their ethanol. But as long as the Iowa caucus leads the presidential season, that ain't happening.

I agree 110%. The problem Progressive Liberals do not like common sense solutions. they are drawn to pie in the sky, feel good solutions that gov't control and finance.
02-22-2010 07:01 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 06:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 05:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The promise of nuclear powered airplanes? Just around the corner AMIRITE?

A tad behind the times...

unless you already knew about this...

03-wink

Yes. I knew about it and was just trying to further illustrate how remarkable scientific advances seem to rarely trickle down to us regular po' fok'
02-22-2010 08:34 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 08:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 06:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 05:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The promise of nuclear powered airplanes? Just around the corner AMIRITE?

A tad behind the times...

unless you already knew about this...

03-wink

Yes. I knew about it and was just trying to further illustrate how remarkable scientific advances seem to rarely trickle down to us regular po' fok'

po'fok'?

Are you being racist? 03-lmfao
02-22-2010 08:38 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 03:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Guys you are arguing the unarguable. It would benefit our society greatly if we can find an alternative resource. Move to Somalia.

Yet another logical fallacy.

Well a couple actually.
02-22-2010 10:01 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 04:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 03:32 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Have we drilled in the red zones? If so, um, when? All you're stating is conjecture at this point, something you commonly do.


They are called Geological Surveys.

And they are pretty much meaningless. They really are.

You can never really know unless you drill. Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less, sometimes you find production that didn't show up on the geological survey. Brasil is doing that right now--see Tupi, Santos, and Espirito Santo. A generation ago, the geological surveys said there was no oil there. Today, each of the three is roughly the size of ANWR, on a barrel equivalency basis. And they are still looking at further step-outs.

Seriously? I mean I know there's always some uncertainty, but "meaningless"?

The ones you cite were false negatives. I think it seems more likely that you get false negatives than false positives. The oil industry was pretty keen on not wasting their time.

Now, as technology has improved, you're getting better detection of oil that is actually there.
02-22-2010 10:04 PM
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RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 05:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The promise of nuclear powered airplanes? Just around the corner AMIRITE?

Feynman tells the story when he got offered a job by a company wanting to develop nuclear powered airplanes. Seems some years before he was being grilled one day on all the potential applications for nuclear power, he mentioned airplanes, and the guy asking patented it for the US Gov, in Feynman's name.

I think he insisted on getting his dollar for selling the gov't the rights to the patent.

Then when he got the job offer he had to tell them he didn't really know anything about building airplanes.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2010 10:09 PM by DrTorch.)
02-22-2010 10:08 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Bloom Boxes
(02-22-2010 10:04 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 04:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-22-2010 03:32 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Have we drilled in the red zones? If so, um, when? All you're stating is conjecture at this point, something you commonly do.
They are called Geological Surveys.
And they are pretty much meaningless. They really are.
You can never really know unless you drill. Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less, sometimes you find production that didn't show up on the geological survey. Brasil is doing that right now--see Tupi, Santos, and Espirito Santo. A generation ago, the geological surveys said there was no oil there. Today, each of the three is roughly the size of ANWR, on a barrel equivalency basis. And they are still looking at further step-outs.
Seriously? I mean I know there's always some uncertainty, but "meaningless"?
The ones you cite were false negatives. I think it seems more likely that you get false negatives than false positives. The oil industry was pretty keen on not wasting their time.
Now, as technology has improved, you're getting better detection of oil that is actually there.

What I think he was talking about was the surveys that government agencies compile, not the internal stuff that oil companies do.

I mentioned false negatives since those supported my point. There are false positives too--I remember Tampa Canyon.

But you are right, as we get to things like 3D seismic, and now even 4D seismic, the number of mistakes is diminishing.
02-22-2010 10:09 PM
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