2003 Reb.............. sooo stupid

(02-18-2010 04:42 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 04:37 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 04:17 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 04:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 03:48 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 02:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 11:03 AM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-17-2010 07:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Instead of criticizing Shrub or claiming that Obama's opponents are racially motivated, why don't you tell us something good about Obama?

Sorry that I once again have to ask for some elaboration, but who is it that you're directing your comments towards?

Anyone who can tell us anything good about Obama.

Can you? If not, do you think that's a commentary strictly on Obama?

No I cannot. I actually thought (and said publicly, and took some heat for doing so) that it was a good thing that he appeared to give more authority than his predecessors to the on-scene commander in the rescue of the ship captain from the Somali pirates, but subsequent events appear to indicate that he did not intend to do so, and that inappropriate retaliatory actions may have been taken by him or by members of his administration as a result. So that one kind of loses its appeal. I would hope that his more conciliatory approach to foreign policy would bring dividends at some point, but so far the pickings are pretty slim on that one as well. In part, I think he has bent over way too far in the other direction to offset the arrogance of Shrub. Otherwise, I can't think of a single good thing that he has done.

I haven't found anyone else who could either. Even Obama supporters respond to my question, not by telling me something good about Obama, but by attacking Shrub or Obama's detractors. With that additional information, I would take that as a commentary strictly on Obama.

Telling me he's better than Shrub doesn't do much for me. One, I'm not sure he his. Two, I think Shrub was maybe the worst president in the history of the republic (maybe edging out Carter in my lifetime), so you have to do better than just beating him to be any good.

So, if you know something good about Obama, tell us what it is. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

Why would I want to waste my time? There's never been a president that I couldn't find something good about. The fact that you can't about Obama says much more about you than Obama. That sort of partisanship turns my stomach, and it represents much of what is wrong in American politics today.

How is it partisanship when he just got through talking about how much he despised Bush?

Maybe it's not partisanship by strict definition, but it's definitely every bit as nasty and repulsive in its similarity.

Or maybe he just really doesn't agree with his policies.

(02-18-2010 04:17 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  Why would I want to waste my time? There's never been a president that I couldn't find something good about. The fact that you can't about Obama says much more about you than Obama. That sort of partisanship turns my stomach, and it represents much of what is wrong in American politics today.

I'd really like to hear what someone thinks is good about him. I worry that I am being too harshly judgemental, but I'm having a very difficult time finding anything to like. I was hoping you or someone could help me. And I mean that very seriously.

As far as there never being a president I couldn't find something good about, I had a really hard time with Carter, and I can't say much good about Shrub. Clinton and Reagan, on the other hand, are two that I liked immensely. Given that I've got one R and one D on the top of my list, and one of each on the bottom, I don't think it's partisanship at work here.

I don't appreciate your attitude, and I can tell you that you are way off base with your conclusions, but then again, you don't know me, except for what you read on here, and I can understand how you could perhaps reach the wrong conclusion about me with limited knowledge.

while we're not appreciating attitudes................ Reb you've been out of control here lately..........

Maybe I should say for the record that I guess Obama is probably a decent enough guy. I'd probably enjoy having a beer with him. He seems to have a nice family that he cares about (that clearly elevates him above Johnny the Ambulance Chaser). I think it's great that America has elected an African-American president (and who cares whether it's 50% or 100%, it's still significant, and the birth certificate flail is absurd). It was very apparent last summer that a great many in South Africa regard him as a hero (his face is in a mural on the side of the Jo'burg airport, for one thing) and that is a good thing.

But I simply cannot find a single policy stance of his with which I agree. There are even a few social issues where he's too conservative for me. And I think he ran a very deceitful campaign by lying to voters that he would pursue a centrist, conciliatory path when he has done anything but that.

There is still time. He could read the tea leaves and change course to pursue the centrist, bi-partisan path that he promised, like Clinton. Both he and the country would be far better off if he did. He could win me over if he did that. But his reactions in the wake of the Massachusetts by-election don't suggest he's going to head that way any time soon.

(02-18-2010 05:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 04:17 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  Why would I want to waste my time? There's never been a president that I couldn't find something good about. The fact that you can't about Obama says much more about you than Obama. That sort of partisanship turns my stomach, and it represents much of what is wrong in American politics today.

I'd really like to hear what someone thinks is good about him. I worry that I am being too harshly judgemental, but I'm having a very difficult time finding anything to like. I was hoping you or someone could help me. And I mean that very seriously.

As far as there never being a president I couldn't find something good about, I had a really hard time with Carter, and I can't say much good about Shrub. Clinton and Reagan, on the other hand, are two that I liked immensely. Given that I've got one R and one D on the top of my list, and one of each on the bottom, I don't think it's partisanship at work here.

I don't appreciate your attitude, and I can tell you that you are way off base with your conclusions, but then again, you don't know me, except for what you read on here, and I can understand how you could perhaps reach the wrong conclusion about me with limited knowledge.

I think it is incredibly demeaning and childish to call one of our former presidents "Shrub". While I didn't like much of what President Bush did in office, I did like that he was bold and decisive when it came to defending America's interests following 9/11. Of course his actions went horribly awry when he deviated off-course into Iraq. I also liked that he seemed to move away from Cheney's influence in his second term and became more flexible in his approaches to the wars. I liked that he recognized the terrible need for a prescripton benefit for our seniors, but I despise the model that he signed. It is a wasteful system that lines the pockets of pharmaceutical companies and needs immediate reform. I liked that he never seemed too comfortable with the DC scene and seemed to be more in his element at home in Texas. And I liked his family. I think he will ultimately be regarded as among our least successful presidents, but I also think people will eventually remember him a bit more fondly than they do now.

President Obama is only a year into his term, so there's much less history to judge him on and much more yet to come. I like the fact that he smoothly transitioned the wars from Bush's administration to his, and I like that he continues to wind down Iraq and ramp up Afghanistan/Pakistan. I worry that we won't be able to extract ourselves from either war, but it's been nice to at least have Obama acknowledge those concerns even if his exit policy is vague. I don't like what he's done in terms of spending, but I must recognize that he had a very limited set of tools available to stabilize the economy. The real test will be whether he proposes and gets any useful reforms through Congress. That looks doubtful, but once again, I can't lay all the blame at his feet for that. The Senate is disgraceful in their conduct these days. I like that he recognizes the need for health care reform, but I dislike that he never set out a vision for what that should look like, and I think he's handled the politics of it terribly. I agree with his dropping of the missle defense shield in Europe, but I do wish that he would have pushed for more concrete commitments from Russia in exchange. I like that he was willing to appoint or attempt to appoint moderate Republicans to his cabinet, and I like that he doesn't demonize those on the other side of the political aisle. Much like Bush, I find him to be personally likeable, and I find his family to be very likeable.

That's not meant to be exhaustive by any means, but I hope it demonstrates that there are positives and negatives to each presdient and to each issue they engage. Focusing solely on the negatives or solely on the positives distorts our views of reality.

On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much. I've seen little more than snarky, bitter comments from you. I suppose that's popular with some people. Maybe I just don't know you well enough or maybe forums like these just bring out the worst in people over time.

(02-18-2010 05:36 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  while we're not appreciating attitudes................ Reb you've been out of control here lately..........

You need a tissue as well?

(02-18-2010 06:06 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much.

Let's just say that the feeling is mutual and leave it at that.

There are plenty on here that can agree without being disagreeable. You obviously aren't one of them.

(02-18-2010 06:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:06 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much.

Let's just say that the feeling is mutual and leave it at that.

There are plenty on here that can agree without being disagreeable. You obviously aren't one of them.

Obviously you aren't one of them either. At least I'm not a hypocrite about it.

(02-18-2010 05:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Maybe I should say for the record that I guess Obama is probably a decent enough guy. I'd probably enjoy having a beer with him.

Of the 4 candidates that ran in the last election the guy I voted for, McC, would be the last guy I have a beer with. Believe it or not, I think Biden would be an absolute pisser with a few beers in him....lord knows what pearls of wisdom he'd impart on us.

GilWinant- Owl doesn't need any defense but from someone on the other side of the aisle Owl #'s is a good and decent individual. Over time you'll see it. I agree with many of your thoughts but I do have to say you are coming off a little strongly in calling Owl out in your first week on here.

(02-18-2010 07:32 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:06 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much.

Let's just say that the feeling is mutual and leave it at that.

There are plenty on here that can agree without being disagreeable. You obviously aren't one of them.

Obviously you aren't one of them either. At least I'm not a hypocrite about it.

You're certainly welcome to come on this message board and post away, but you might be better served to spend a little more time reading before developing such sharp opinions. 69/70/75 is one of the smartest and most thoughtful and articulate posters on this board, and has been able to have polite disagreements with folks all over the political spectrum. I have seen him sincerely compliment even the most egregious troll here. Try clicking on that little "Reputation" link. That you can't seem to have a civil disagreement with him says more about you than about him.

Mach and Brookes, thanks for the support. It is a free country, and he or she is free to post whatever. The way I see it, attacks on politicians, even personal attacks, are fair game. They put themselves out there. Personal attacks on posters are a different story. That's just me, not everybody may agree.

BleedsHuskieRed, thanks for reminding me about the medical marijuana. That is one thing I agree with. I'm also happy with the predator strikes in Pakistan, and the focus on cleaning up Afghanistan. As someone who's been a Middle East hand, one way or the other, since 1970, I will say that I find both Obama's and Shrub's approaches to the area to be shockingly devoid of understanding about how things work there. I know a large number of expats who feel the same way. To clarify, in this area I think Obama is better than Shrub in some respects and Shrub was better in some, but neither really has it right.

(02-18-2010 08:07 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 07:32 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:06 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much.

Let's just say that the feeling is mutual and leave it at that.

There are plenty on here that can agree without being disagreeable. You obviously aren't one of them.

Obviously you aren't one of them either. At least I'm not a hypocrite about it.

You're certainly welcome to come on this message board and post away, but you might be better served to spend a little more time reading before developing such sharp opinions. 69/70/75 is one of the smartest and most thoughtful and articulate posters on this board, and has been able to have polite disagreements with folks all over the political spectrum. I have seen him sincerely compliment even the most egregious troll here. Try clicking on that little "Reputation" link. That you can't seem to have a civil disagreement with him says more about you than about him.

I treat people with respect unless they give reason to do otherwise.

(02-18-2010 08:45 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  I treat people with respect unless they give reason to do otherwise.

Evidence of that is lacking on this board. If you can't have a conversation with Owl, you might as well go on back to DU now. That man has more patience with others than most in this world.

(02-18-2010 08:59 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 08:45 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  I treat people with respect unless they give reason to do otherwise.

Evidence of that is lacking on this board. If you can't have a conversation with Owl, you might as well go on back to DU now. That man has more patience with others than most in this world.

I have no reason to post on Democratic Underground. I'm not a Democrat and don't generally agree with the people who post there. I asked for a simple elaboration on something Owl said, and I received a condescending, dismissive reply. If he wants to apologize, I would be willing to accept.

(02-18-2010 09:03 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 08:59 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 08:45 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  I treat people with respect unless they give reason to do otherwise.

Evidence of that is lacking on this board. If you can't have a conversation with Owl, you might as well go on back to DU now. That man has more patience with others than most in this world.

I have no reason to post on Democratic Underground. I'm not a Democrat and don't generally agree with the people who post there. I asked for a simple elaboration on something Owl said, and I received a condescending, dismissive reply. If he wants to apologize, I would be willing to accept.

Your avatar fits you well.

(02-18-2010 06:06 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 05:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 04:17 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  Why would I want to waste my time? There's never been a president that I couldn't find something good about. The fact that you can't about Obama says much more about you than Obama. That sort of partisanship turns my stomach, and it represents much of what is wrong in American politics today.

I'd really like to hear what someone thinks is good about him. I worry that I am being too harshly judgemental, but I'm having a very difficult time finding anything to like. I was hoping you or someone could help me. And I mean that very seriously.

As far as there never being a president I couldn't find something good about, I had a really hard time with Carter, and I can't say much good about Shrub. Clinton and Reagan, on the other hand, are two that I liked immensely. Given that I've got one R and one D on the top of my list, and one of each on the bottom, I don't think it's partisanship at work here.

I don't appreciate your attitude, and I can tell you that you are way off base with your conclusions, but then again, you don't know me, except for what you read on here, and I can understand how you could perhaps reach the wrong conclusion about me with limited knowledge.

I think it is incredibly demeaning and childish to call one of our former presidents "Shrub". While I didn't like much of what President Bush did in office, I did like that he was bold and decisive when it came to defending America's interests following 9/11. Of course his actions went horribly awry when he deviated off-course into Iraq. I also liked that he seemed to move away from Cheney's influence in his second term and became more flexible in his approaches to the wars. I liked that he recognized the terrible need for a prescripton benefit for our seniors, but I despise the model that he signed. It is a wasteful system that lines the pockets of pharmaceutical companies and needs immediate reform. I liked that he never seemed too comfortable with the DC scene and seemed to be more in his element at home in Texas. And I liked his family. I think he will ultimately be regarded as among our least successful presidents, but I also think people will eventually remember him a bit more fondly than they do now.

President Obama is only a year into his term, so there's much less history to judge him on and much more yet to come. I like the fact that he smoothly transitioned the wars from Bush's administration to his, and I like that he continues to wind down Iraq and ramp up Afghanistan/Pakistan. I worry that we won't be able to extract ourselves from either war, but it's been nice to at least have Obama acknowledge those concerns even if his exit policy is vague. I don't like what he's done in terms of spending, but I must recognize that he had a very limited set of tools available to stabilize the economy. The real test will be whether he proposes and gets any useful reforms through Congress. That looks doubtful, but once again, I can't lay all the blame at his feet for that. The Senate is disgraceful in their conduct these days. I like that he recognizes the need for health care reform, but I dislike that he never set out a vision for what that should look like, and I think he's handled the politics of it terribly. I agree with his dropping of the missle defense shield in Europe, but I do wish that he would have pushed for more concrete commitments from Russia in exchange. I like that he was willing to appoint or attempt to appoint moderate Republicans to his cabinet, and I like that he doesn't demonize those on the other side of the political aisle. Much like Bush, I find him to be personally likeable, and I find his family to be very likeable.

That's not meant to be exhaustive by any means, but I hope it demonstrates that there are positives and negatives to each presdient and to each issue they engage. Focusing solely on the negatives or solely on the positives distorts our views of reality.

On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much. I've seen little more than snarky, bitter comments from you. I suppose that's popular with some people. Maybe I just don't know you well enough or maybe forums like these just bring out the worst in people over time.

I actually agree with most of this regarding Bush and Obama. Do you consider yourself a Republican? Independent?

(02-19-2010 12:10 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:06 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 05:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 04:17 PM)GilWinant Wrote:  Why would I want to waste my time? There's never been a president that I couldn't find something good about. The fact that you can't about Obama says much more about you than Obama. That sort of partisanship turns my stomach, and it represents much of what is wrong in American politics today.

I'd really like to hear what someone thinks is good about him. I worry that I am being too harshly judgemental, but I'm having a very difficult time finding anything to like. I was hoping you or someone could help me. And I mean that very seriously.

As far as there never being a president I couldn't find something good about, I had a really hard time with Carter, and I can't say much good about Shrub. Clinton and Reagan, on the other hand, are two that I liked immensely. Given that I've got one R and one D on the top of my list, and one of each on the bottom, I don't think it's partisanship at work here.

I don't appreciate your attitude, and I can tell you that you are way off base with your conclusions, but then again, you don't know me, except for what you read on here, and I can understand how you could perhaps reach the wrong conclusion about me with limited knowledge.

I think it is incredibly demeaning and childish to call one of our former presidents "Shrub". While I didn't like much of what President Bush did in office, I did like that he was bold and decisive when it came to defending America's interests following 9/11. Of course his actions went horribly awry when he deviated off-course into Iraq. I also liked that he seemed to move away from Cheney's influence in his second term and became more flexible in his approaches to the wars. I liked that he recognized the terrible need for a prescripton benefit for our seniors, but I despise the model that he signed. It is a wasteful system that lines the pockets of pharmaceutical companies and needs immediate reform. I liked that he never seemed too comfortable with the DC scene and seemed to be more in his element at home in Texas. And I liked his family. I think he will ultimately be regarded as among our least successful presidents, but I also think people will eventually remember him a bit more fondly than they do now.

President Obama is only a year into his term, so there's much less history to judge him on and much more yet to come. I like the fact that he smoothly transitioned the wars from Bush's administration to his, and I like that he continues to wind down Iraq and ramp up Afghanistan/Pakistan. I worry that we won't be able to extract ourselves from either war, but it's been nice to at least have Obama acknowledge those concerns even if his exit policy is vague. I don't like what he's done in terms of spending, but I must recognize that he had a very limited set of tools available to stabilize the economy. The real test will be whether he proposes and gets any useful reforms through Congress. That looks doubtful, but once again, I can't lay all the blame at his feet for that. The Senate is disgraceful in their conduct these days. I like that he recognizes the need for health care reform, but I dislike that he never set out a vision for what that should look like, and I think he's handled the politics of it terribly. I agree with his dropping of the missle defense shield in Europe, but I do wish that he would have pushed for more concrete commitments from Russia in exchange. I like that he was willing to appoint or attempt to appoint moderate Republicans to his cabinet, and I like that he doesn't demonize those on the other side of the political aisle. Much like Bush, I find him to be personally likeable, and I find his family to be very likeable.

That's not meant to be exhaustive by any means, but I hope it demonstrates that there are positives and negatives to each presdient and to each issue they engage. Focusing solely on the negatives or solely on the positives distorts our views of reality.

On a personal level, I also can't say that I care for you much. I've seen little more than snarky, bitter comments from you. I suppose that's popular with some people. Maybe I just don't know you well enough or maybe forums like these just bring out the worst in people over time.

I actually agree with most of this regarding Bush and Obama. Do you consider yourself a Republican? Independent?

I'm a long-time Republican. That means the GOP I see today looks nothing like the party I joined. I keep hoping that the party will return to its senses, but it's being driven more and more by the radical elements and hyper-partisans that I don't like. I have faith that the pendulum will eventually swing back towards a calmed, reasoned, intellectual GOP as opposed to the grotesque, partisan, populist rage that has consumed my party recently. I think most people of my political persuasion identify themselves as independents these days.

Shrub is a term used commonly in Texas to differentiate Bush I from Bush II (little bush=shrub). Molly Ivins uses it derisively, I actually use it more because I think it's easier and clearer to say Bush and Shrub than to say Bush I and Bush II or HW and W.

I didn't care for the way Shrub handled 9/11. I thought he missed a lot of opportunities to do better, starting with he could have revoked the Gorelick memo on day 1 and that would likely have prevented it in the first place. It got worse from there. The tax cuts, the prescription drug program, pretty much his whole domestic agenda was a disaster. I actually think he was a good governor of Texas, primarily becuase he operated in a very bi-partisan manner. I think that got lost in DC because he got hijacked by the same neocon element that hijacked his father. When he picked Cheney for VP, he lost me, and he never got me back.

Obama has a different tack on Iraq and Afghanistan, probably marginally better than Shrub's, but neither one really impresses me as having a clue what needs to be done. He inherited a major clusterf**k with Gitmo, and there really is no right answer, but so far he seems to be picking the worst possible alternatives. IMO his major problem is that he promised leftists that he would be a leftist and he promised centrists that he would be a centrist. He clearly lied to someone, and those lies are now having consequences.

My bottom line is that Shrub took over the country with a few problems and drove it into the ditch, and now Obama is driving us off a cliff. Clinton handed the country off in good enough shape to stand 8 years of Shrub; I don't think Shrub handed it off in good enough shape to stand 4, much less 8, years of Obama.

I'm for limited government, fiscal conservatism, social moderation, speak softly and carry a big stick. I don't see any part of that in either major party.