(02-22-2010 11:47 AM)huskiealum03 Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 11:36 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 10:33 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:32 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 09:34 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I think some cuts and some tax increases to pay for the current pensions but I have no problem with changes to the pension for future workers(or even get rid of it if it can be negotiated).

Since you don't mind a tax increase for the pensions, does that mean you don't have a problem writing a check for $10,000 to the state? At $130B, assuming there are $13M people in the state to keep the math easy, each citizen owes $10k for the pension underfunding.

Maybe your retirement is already secure, you sit on boatloads of cash, and don't mind paying the $10k and watching the fat cats can get fatter.

I never said it all should be taxes. I said there should be some cuts. I also don't think we should be taking away what people earned through their hard work. I know you don't care if it is taken away from someone you don't know but I can guarantee you would be VERY upset if something you worked for throughout your careeer was taken away from you. As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

So I should give up my retirement fund (which I started when I was 18) to fund the pensions of state employees? So because our politicians can't manage our money, we should suffer?

Bleeds has it exactly right. Why should the taxpayers pay for the pensions essentially a second time? The state employees should take a hit, just like the taxpayers will.

And, I'm a government employee.

Nothing has to be "negotiated" to make significant changes to the pension system, i.e. to keep out new employees. The Dems that run this state just have to make it so.

the dems AND the reps...both parties have a stake in running this state into the ground

So very true. How did we get hosed with the politicians in our state? We all seem like good people. I can't wait for karma to turn around and watch us all win multi-million dollar lottery jackpots.

Politicians are to blame as well as greedy unions. The government has squandered our money and now they want more to fix their screw up. When have they ever fixed anything?

(02-22-2010 10:33 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:32 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 09:34 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I think some cuts and some tax increases to pay for the current pensions but I have no problem with changes to the pension for future workers(or even get rid of it if it can be negotiated).

Since you don't mind a tax increase for the pensions, does that mean you don't have a problem writing a check for $10,000 to the state? At $130B, assuming there are $13M people in the state to keep the math easy, each citizen owes $10k for the pension underfunding.

Maybe your retirement is already secure, you sit on boatloads of cash, and don't mind paying the $10k and watching the fat cats can get fatter.

I never said it all should be taxes. I said there should be some cuts. I also don't think we should be taking away what people earned through their hard work. I know you don't care if it is taken away from someone you don't know but I can guarantee you would be VERY upset if something you worked for throughout your careeer was taken away from you. As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

So I should give up my retirement fund (which I started when I was 18) to fund the pensions of state employees? So because our politicians can't manage our money, we should suffer?

No. But you are expecting others to give up what you won't give up. Thaink about that for a minute.

(02-22-2010 12:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 10:33 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:32 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 09:34 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I think some cuts and some tax increases to pay for the current pensions but I have no problem with changes to the pension for future workers(or even get rid of it if it can be negotiated).

Since you don't mind a tax increase for the pensions, does that mean you don't have a problem writing a check for $10,000 to the state? At $130B, assuming there are $13M people in the state to keep the math easy, each citizen owes $10k for the pension underfunding.

Maybe your retirement is already secure, you sit on boatloads of cash, and don't mind paying the $10k and watching the fat cats can get fatter.

I never said it all should be taxes. I said there should be some cuts. I also don't think we should be taking away what people earned through their hard work. I know you don't care if it is taken away from someone you don't know but I can guarantee you would be VERY upset if something you worked for throughout your careeer was taken away from you. As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

So I should give up my retirement fund (which I started when I was 18) to fund the pensions of state employees? So because our politicians can't manage our money, we should suffer?

No. But you are expecting others to give up what you won't give up. Thaink about that for a minute.

No I am expecting the government (there's my first problem) to find a better solution than taxing us and taking our retirement funds. I am not going to give up my retirement fund to help someone else. It may be selfish, but I would rather not be destitute. I am taking responsibility for my own financial well being, not my fault they didn't do the same for themselves. The state can make cuts in other areas to give these people their pensions. However, starting today, pensions for new employees should be ended. Forever. Make people take responsibility for themselves.

And Robert, if you are so intent on giving stuff up, can you shoot some money my way. I'm pretty poor and could really use some help. Thanks in advance.

(02-22-2010 12:39 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 12:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 10:33 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:32 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 09:34 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I think some cuts and some tax increases to pay for the current pensions but I have no problem with changes to the pension for future workers(or even get rid of it if it can be negotiated).

Since you don't mind a tax increase for the pensions, does that mean you don't have a problem writing a check for $10,000 to the state? At $130B, assuming there are $13M people in the state to keep the math easy, each citizen owes $10k for the pension underfunding.

Maybe your retirement is already secure, you sit on boatloads of cash, and don't mind paying the $10k and watching the fat cats can get fatter.

I never said it all should be taxes. I said there should be some cuts. I also don't think we should be taking away what people earned through their hard work. I know you don't care if it is taken away from someone you don't know but I can guarantee you would be VERY upset if something you worked for throughout your careeer was taken away from you. As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

So I should give up my retirement fund (which I started when I was 18) to fund the pensions of state employees? So because our politicians can't manage our money, we should suffer?

No. But you are expecting others to give up what you won't give up. Thaink about that for a minute.

No I am expecting the government (there's my first problem) to find a better solution than taxing us and taking our retirement funds. I am not going to give up my retirement fund to help someone else. It may be selfish, but I would rather not be destitute. I am taking responsibility for my own financial well being, not my fault they didn't do the same for themselves. The state can make cuts in other areas to give these people their pensions. However, starting today, pensions for new employees should be ended. Forever. Make people take responsibility for themselves.

I said that I never expected you to give up your retirement savings. I said, you are upset about having to give yours up yet, you expect someone else to give theirs up. Do you not think these people would be upset to lose their retirement savings? You do know that these people put THEIR OWN MONEY into the pension? It was part of their salary. Now you want to take it away?

(02-22-2010 12:49 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 12:39 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 12:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 10:33 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:32 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 09:34 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I think some cuts and some tax increases to pay for the current pensions but I have no problem with changes to the pension for future workers(or even get rid of it if it can be negotiated).

Since you don't mind a tax increase for the pensions, does that mean you don't have a problem writing a check for $10,000 to the state? At $130B, assuming there are $13M people in the state to keep the math easy, each citizen owes $10k for the pension underfunding.

Maybe your retirement is already secure, you sit on boatloads of cash, and don't mind paying the $10k and watching the fat cats can get fatter.

I never said it all should be taxes. I said there should be some cuts. I also don't think we should be taking away what people earned through their hard work. I know you don't care if it is taken away from someone you don't know but I can guarantee you would be VERY upset if something you worked for throughout your careeer was taken away from you. As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

So I should give up my retirement fund (which I started when I was 18) to fund the pensions of state employees? So because our politicians can't manage our money, we should suffer?

No. But you are expecting others to give up what you won't give up. Thaink about that for a minute.

No I am expecting the government (there's my first problem) to find a better solution than taxing us and taking our retirement funds. I am not going to give up my retirement fund to help someone else. It may be selfish, but I would rather not be destitute. I am taking responsibility for my own financial well being, not my fault they didn't do the same for themselves. The state can make cuts in other areas to give these people their pensions. However, starting today, pensions for new employees should be ended. Forever. Make people take responsibility for themselves.

I said that I never expected you to give up your retirement savings. I said, you are upset about having to give yours up yet, you expect someone else to give theirs up. Do you not think these people would be upset to lose their retirement savings? You do know that these people put THEIR OWN MONEY into the pension? It was part of their salary. Now you want to take it away?

It is the same as social security. We relied on our government to do the right thing. They didn't and now we all suffer. Governmental employees should have been voting out the politicians that failed to fund pensions instead of giving family and friends lucrative contracts.

If we have a tax increase, this is throwing good money after bad. Also, a tax increase will cause our state to lose more private jobs which will decrease our tax base. Ask Cook County about the cigarette tax increase. People are buying in Dupage, Lake and Will Counties saving the taxes.

(02-22-2010 12:49 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 12:39 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 12:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 10:33 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 10:32 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-21-2010 09:34 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I think some cuts and some tax increases to pay for the current pensions but I have no problem with changes to the pension for future workers(or even get rid of it if it can be negotiated).

Since you don't mind a tax increase for the pensions, does that mean you don't have a problem writing a check for $10,000 to the state? At $130B, assuming there are $13M people in the state to keep the math easy, each citizen owes $10k for the pension underfunding.

Maybe your retirement is already secure, you sit on boatloads of cash, and don't mind paying the $10k and watching the fat cats can get fatter.

I never said it all should be taxes. I said there should be some cuts. I also don't think we should be taking away what people earned through their hard work. I know you don't care if it is taken away from someone you don't know but I can guarantee you would be VERY upset if something you worked for throughout your careeer was taken away from you. As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

So I should give up my retirement fund (which I started when I was 18) to fund the pensions of state employees? So because our politicians can't manage our money, we should suffer?

No. But you are expecting others to give up what you won't give up. Thaink about that for a minute.

No I am expecting the government (there's my first problem) to find a better solution than taxing us and taking our retirement funds. I am not going to give up my retirement fund to help someone else. It may be selfish, but I would rather not be destitute. I am taking responsibility for my own financial well being, not my fault they didn't do the same for themselves. The state can make cuts in other areas to give these people their pensions. However, starting today, pensions for new employees should be ended. Forever. Make people take responsibility for themselves.

I said that I never expected you to give up your retirement savings. I said, you are upset about having to give yours up yet, you expect someone else to give theirs up. Do you not think these people would be upset to lose their retirement savings? You do know that these people put THEIR OWN MONEY into the pension? It was part of their salary. Now you want to take it away?

I'm not taking it away. The democrats and republicans they elected (mostly democrats though, seeing as many are union employees) took that away from them. Don't put this evil on me Ricky Bobby. I only started voting 6 years ago, this is not my fault, and I will not be punished for it. I am being responsible. I started saving for retirement when I got my first part time high school job. I will not be punished for the sins of this states politicians. Put this on them, instead of skirting the blame to "selfish" fiscal conservatives. Or hell...maybe they will just have to work till their mid-60s like other people. What a shame! Lots of things get promised by the government, sometimes they don't work out (the Constitution, pensions, wars). This is why government can't be trusted, when will liberals pull their heads out of their collective lazy asses and realize this? Till they and the neocons realize this, this country is heading towards the shitter and all I can do is sit back and hope I can fend for myself, which is the only person that should be taking care of me.

(02-22-2010 01:08 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  I will not be punished for the sins of this states politicians.

Dude, welcome to the real world. Get used to it.

No more shuffling of the chairs on the titanic. Governmental employees are about to pay for trusting the politicians. I do not expect to collect any social security when I turn 67 but I am still paying into the system.

(02-22-2010 12:49 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said that I never expected you to give up your retirement savings. I said, you are upset about having to give yours up yet, you expect someone else to give theirs up. Do you not think these people would be upset to lose their retirement savings? You do know that these people put THEIR OWN MONEY into the pension? It was part of their salary. Now you want to take it away?

I don't believe state employees should give up money they put into a pension fund. I believe they should give up the Ponzi-scheme style benefits which would be paid by pension contributions of a later generation.

The problem with pensions is that the US economy isn't growing like it was 50 years ago. As such, future contributions won't be able to fund future benefits. Corporate America realized this in the 1980s and terminated pensions / replaced them with 401(k)s. They didn't have unions trying to block them from being financially sound, and didn't have the option of a tax increase as a backstop for poor financial decisions.

Unions in the steel, airline, and auto industries used their clout to refuse reductions in benefits to make benefits sustainable over the long term in the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s. They all played a significant role of driving their companies into bankruptcy. Government is next.

The reality is that 30-40 years ago, life expectancies were shorter, economical growth rates were higher, the large population of baby boomers were entering the workforce = large number of people contributing to pension funds with fewer benefits being payed out (people not living as long). Ponzi-scheme pension funds had a financially sound outlook BACK THEN.

Fast forward to the 1990s / 2000s
- People are living longer (drawing more benefits)
- The baby boom population is retiring (drawing more benefits)
- Growth rates are lower
- The global economy is creating competition, driving down profits & tax revenues per capita
- Pension funds are not going to be able to meet their obligations

Here's what the current economy did to retirement funds

PRIVATE SECTOR - 401(k)'s tanked, people can't retire early, have to work longer.

PUBLIC SECTOR - Pension funds tanked, entitlements unchanged, people don't have to work longer. People still retire early per gov't law / union contrat, but the pension fund doesn't have enough money to meet all pension obligations.

What's the solution? Tax the people in the private sector, who already have to work longer since their 401(k) tanked, now they have to work even longer to pay higher taxes so the public sector can still retire early, enjoy their fat-cat pensions, and retiree health care benefits?

HELL NO! It is time for the public sector / unions to accept the fact that it's 2010 and not 1960 - the whole pie has shrunk, their piece of the pie has therefore shrunk, and they are only entitled to their piece of the pie in today's world, and don't get to be fat cats at the private sector's expense with 1960s era benefits.

(02-22-2010 02:19 PM)klake87 Wrote:  No more shuffling of the chairs on the titanic. Governmental employees are about to pay for trusting the politicians. I do not expect to collect any social security when I turn 67 but I am still paying into the system.

klake, when you retire, there will be Social Security.

I believe that in ~2038, Social Security won't be able to pay out 100% of its benefits. But it will still be able to meet ~75% of its obligations, with no reform from today's laws. 75% of a Social Security benefit + 401(k) isn't all that bad.

(02-21-2010 10:44 PM)RobertN Wrote:  As I stated the "As long as I get mine, I don't give a damn about anyone else" is easy to spot. You have that affliction.

Contrary to how you want to sterotype the right, that isn't how I think. I don't believe in stealing from others for one's benefit, I believe everyone should be able to keep what they have rightfully earned.

This means, since the private sector did the right thing 10-20 years and terminated Ponzi-scheme pensions (since they were no longer financially sound in the global economy), that the private sector shouldn't have to bail out the public sector whose laws and unions refuse to bring their benefits in line with the realities of the modern world.

My company still has a pension, and I hope it's still around when I retire, because it's a great benefit. It is possible to do, but it takes committment from leadership and good management of assets. Unfortunately in the case of state employees, your leadership is the state government, which as we all know, in Illinois, is a joke.

factuary, for your sake I hope the pension is there when you retire

- Hopefully the company remains financially solvent and always able to keep the pension fund funded
- Hopefully the company grows enough to offset the fact that people are living longer and may be consuming more than their share of the pension fund (based on dollars contributed over their career)
- Hopefully if you end up leaving the company, either by your own choice or by a layoff, your contributions to the pension fund will earn you a fair benefit when you retire.

(02-24-2010 09:51 PM)HuskieJoe Wrote:  

(02-22-2010 02:19 PM)klake87 Wrote:  No more shuffling of the chairs on the titanic. Governmental employees are about to pay for trusting the politicians. I do not expect to collect any social security when I turn 67 but I am still paying into the system.

klake, when you retire, there will be Social Security.

I believe that in ~2038, Social Security won't be able to pay out 100% of its benefits. But it will still be able to meet ~75% of its obligations, with no reform from today's laws. 75% of a Social Security benefit + 401(k) isn't all that bad.

Your optimistic. One of the tax credits in the "Jobs" bill is to eliminate payroll taxes on new hires that were unemployed. They will still get credit but less money going into the already insufficient coffers.