Guess re-writing Hitler into something other than an evil beast is safe now for Hollywood. For Oliver Stone's upcoming project, a glimpse into his 'views" to help better understand Hitler

http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/pe...10.article

Quote:the German dictator [Adolph Hitler] was ''enabled by Western bankers'' and managed to ''seduce'' Germany's military industrial complex.

ah, the 'western bankers' and "military industrial complex" made Hitler try to conquer the world and exterminate the Jews. Other than that, swell guy, lets have a beer!

dangerously ignorant, dread what he will do with "Wall Street 2"

But I thought all the bankers were Jews.

Quote:"Hitler is a monster. There is no question. I have no empathy for Hitler at all. He was a crazy psychopath,”

Yes, he obviously feels that Hitler is a great guy.

(01-25-2010 02:09 PM)jh Wrote:  

Quote:"Hitler is a monster. There is no question. I have no empathy for Hitler at all. He was a crazy psychopath,”

Yes, he obviously feels that Hitler is a great guy.

after JFK, Stone should be making zero historical movies. The guy is a crazed loon.


he obviously does have some "empathy" in his nuanced effort to blame others for Hitler's actions(i.e. world domination and Jew extermination among others).......going on to explain "What made him do it" was "Western Bankers" and the "military Industrial Complex".

also note calling him a "psychopath", goes right to the root of the logic of: "It's Society that makes people do bad things". No such thing as evil, but there are "Pychopaths", who need help and better understanding... being the worldview.

A tyrants best friend are morons like Oliver Stone.

You must have a different source because the one you posted doesn't say any of those things.

Stone says that Hitler was enabled by western bankers. He doesn't say they made him do it. He says they helped him rise to power - not that they helped him with his plans of genocide & world domination. Nobody had any idea what Hitler had in mind during his rise so it is entirely possible for someone to have supported Hitler during his rise even if they were entirely opposed to his later actions.

As for the military-industrial complex, Stone says that Hitler seduced them. Hitler is the seducer, not the other way around. How Hitler seducing the military-industrial complex could be twisted around to mean that the military-industrial complex made him do it is beyond me.

And psycopath, pretty much always used to mean evil. Not a lot of positive connotations in that one. Never in my life have I heard someone try to use, "it's ok, he's just a psycopath" as an excuse for bad behavior or as a plea for additional understanding. No, it's pretty much limited for those people believed to be beyond redemption.

Well I guess if appeasement is what allowed Hitler to do what he did militarily, then bankers can be accused of enabling him.

Most people grow up reflective of the time in which they live. Hitler was not much different, growing up in an environment of anti-Semitism. He was just the oddball that was determined to take action according to his opinions, and had certain abilities that allowed him to do it.

Oliver Stone can make movies, but documentaries? I think I'll pass.

(01-25-2010 02:42 PM)jh Wrote:  Stone says that Hitler was enabled by western bankers. He doesn't say they made him do it. He says they helped him rise to power - not that they helped him with his plans of genocide & world domination.

whats the point of even bringing up any business dealings, Germany being a First World nation, wealthy is naturally going to have business dealings with others. Its completely irrelevant to what Hitler was and did. He's probably pwning them off as "Enablers", which is ridiculous

Quote: Nobody had any idea what Hitler had in mind during his rise so it is entirely possible for someone to have supported Hitler during his rise even if they were entirely opposed to his later actions.

anyone that read Mein Kampf knew what Hitler was planning, but then as today with Iran and others they either put their heads in the sand or figured he wasn't serious.

Those that may or may not have had dealings with Germany during that period, one time or another, is irrelevant to what Hitler was.

Quote:As for the military-industrial complex, Stone says that Hitler seduced them. Hitler is the seducer, not the other way around. How Hitler seducing the military-industrial complex could be twisted around to mean that the military-industrial complex made him do it is beyond me.

again, whats the point even if any of that were true?

It matters because given Stone's past lunancy, advocacy of Castro, Chavez and others and his usual Deceitful nature....it matters alot. Stone being a conspiratorial nut, that has a history of railing against the US Military and "Industrial complex" which thugs like his buddies Castro and Chavez just love to hear. both of which, military dictators.

Aside from that, Stone praises Castro of all people, Fidel Castro who killed more people as a percent of his population than Hitler ever did!!!!!!! Yes I'm worried about where Oliver Stone is going with this one, especially since he wants this Doc. to be used in Schools.

Quote:And psycopath, pretty much always used to mean evil. Not a lot of positive connotations in that one. Never in my life have I heard someone try to use, "it's ok, he's just a psycopath" as an excuse for bad behavior or as a plea for additional understanding. No, it's pretty much limited for those people believed to be beyond redemption.

Stone doesn't beleive in "Evil"....he flatly says we can't view Hitler, Stalin, Mao(and amazingly he's trying to place Joe McCarthy on the same moral plane) in terms of "Good" and "Bad".


Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Chavez, Hussein..........Napoleon....Nero....history is filled with actors such as these. All of them had militaries obviously, all of them had financial dealings on their rise up, they all took craps like the rest of us. Its completely irrelevant to their actions, who they were, why they did it.


The lefts/Secular Logic, using pyschological terms like Stone is using, is that Criminals are forced to commit these crimes because Society makes them in someway. Therefore we need a lenient policy on Crime, with lots of Therapy and Society radically changing its 'faults'.

The same logic is used to explain away Freedom's enemies, America(or Britian) made the Hitler's of the world do what they did in some way. i.e. "Lets blame America first, take at face value the anti-American view and give it legitmacy"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/jan/...ne-history

Quote:Stone told the Television Critics Association that "we can't judge people as only 'bad' or 'good'. [Hitler] is the product of a series of actions. It's cause and effect. People in America don't know the connection between WWI and WWII."

The implication that Stone is seeking to put forward a good side of the German dictator hitherto not seen by Americans is, even by Stone's own accomplished record of stirring up stinks, pretty radical.

The comment inspired Stone's collaborator on his Secret History, Peter Kuznick, a history professor at the Washington-based American University, to tell the audience of television critics and, in an apparent damage-limitation exercise: "He's not saying we're going to come out with a more positive view of Hitler. But we're going to describe him as a historical phenomenon."

Even so, such a relativist approach to Hitler as a product of his time as much as an individual embodiment of evil is likely to prove hot material. Stone said he would similarly put Stalin "in context". "I've been able to walk in Stalin's shoes and Hitler's shoes, to understand their point of view. You cannot approach history unless you have empathy for the person you may hate."

and he's not a "Historical phenomenon", history is filled with men, leaders of nations of old, every bit as evil as Hitler, Stalin and company though with less technological means. hardly a phenomenon

I think he was kind of a phenomenon. Hitler had so many willing to go along with what he was doing, early on, when they still had a choice. He was an excellent public speaker. Other guys like Stalin used machinations among a much smaller clique to get to the top. As far as being evil though, I agree, others were just as bad.

(01-25-2010 04:42 PM)GGniner Wrote:  

(01-25-2010 02:42 PM)jh Wrote:  Stone says that Hitler was enabled by western bankers. He doesn't say they made him do it. He says they helped him rise to power - not that they helped him with his plans of genocide & world domination.

whats the point of even bringing up any business dealings, Germany being a First World nation, wealthy is naturally going to have business dealings with others. Its completely irrelevant to what Hitler was and did. He's probably pwning them off as "Enablers", which is ridiculous

How should I know? You've posted a short article which barely touches on the content of the film and drawn outrageously sweeping conclusions based on your own prejuices.

Maybe the western bankers (I don't even know who the western bankers are) financed the early days of the Nazi party. Maybe they were his early supporters. Maybe they were so focused on one evil that they missed an even bigger evil right in front of them, possibly aided by their own anti-Semitism. And maybe they did nothing wrong at all and Stone is just a crackpot. You'll have to wait for the film to find out.

Quote:

Quote:Nobody had any idea what Hitler had in mind during his rise so it is entirely possible for someone to have supported Hitler during his rise even if they were entirely opposed to his later actions.

anyone that read Mein Kampf knew what Hitler was planning, but then as today with Iran and others they either put their heads in the sand or figured he wasn't serious.

Those that may or may not have had dealings with Germany during that period, one time or another, is irrelevant to what Hitler was.

And how many people read Mein Kampf, particularly among western bankers and political leaders? I'm assuming the number is pretty small. If it's large, then that is something interesting indeed.

And the people around him aren't irrelevant because Hitler didn't exist in a vacuum.

Quote:

Quote:As for the military-industrial complex, Stone says that Hitler seduced them. Hitler is the seducer, not the other way around. How Hitler seducing the military-industrial complex could be twisted around to mean that the military-industrial complex made him do it is beyond me.

again, whats the point even if any of that were true?

Well, the article said that Hitler seduced the military-industrial complex. You said the military-industrial complex seduced Hitler. That's a pretty big difference in my book.

Hitler was a man. No more, no less. He was an absolutely horrible, downright evil, man in almost every way. But he could not have accomplished any of the horrific things that he did without the help of countless others. And, while he certainly used more than his fair share of violence and intimidation during his rise, many of those people gave themselves to him willingly. Understanding how & why Hitler rose to power is not a trivial task, nor a meaningless one.

Quote:It matters because given Stone's past lunancy, advocacy of Castro, Chavez and others and his usual Deceitful nature....it matters alot. Stone being a conspiratorial nut, that has a history of railing against the US Military and "Industrial complex" which thugs like his buddies Castro and Chavez just love to hear. both of which, military dictators.

Aside from that, Stone praises Castro of all people, Fidel Castro who killed more people as a percent of his population than Hitler ever did!!!!!!! Yes I'm worried about where Oliver Stone is going with this one, especially since he wants this Doc. to be used in Schools.

What do you mean worried about where he is going with this? I thought you already knew.

Quote:

Quote:And psycopath, pretty much always used to mean evil. Not a lot of positive connotations in that one. Never in my life have I heard someone try to use, "it's ok, he's just a psycopath" as an excuse for bad behavior or as a plea for additional understanding. No, it's pretty much limited for those people believed to be beyond redemption.

Stone doesn't beleive in "Evil"....he flatly says we can't view Hitler, Stalin, Mao(and amazingly he's trying to place Joe McCarthy on the same moral plane) in terms of "Good" and "Bad".

Where does he say that? Certainly not in either of the articles you posted above.

Quote:Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Chavez, Hussein..........Napoleon....Nero....history is filled with actors such as these. All of them had militaries obviously, all of them had financial dealings on their rise up, they all took craps like the rest of us. Its completely irrelevant to their actions, who they were, why they did it.

The lefts/Secular Logic, using pyschological terms like Stone is using, is that Criminals are forced to commit these crimes because Society makes them in someway. Therefore we need a lenient policy on Crime, with lots of Therapy and Society radically changing its 'faults'.

The same logic is used to explain away Freedom's enemies, America(or Britian) made the Hitler's of the world do what they did in some way. i.e. "Lets blame America first, take at face value the anti-American view and give it legitmacy"

First, I really wish you would stop trying to speak for people who think nothing like you. You aren't very good at it.

You have no idea what the content of this film will be yet have gone off on a wild tantrum, with little or no justification, including calling Stone a Hitler sympathizer.

Finally, a psycopath does have a psychological definition. It's a person devoid of empathy and morals. It's used for people who are irredeemable, not as an excuse. And it seems like a pretty good label for Hitler.

Quote:“What has America become? How can we in America not learn from Germany in the 1930s,” the Oscar-winning director asked.

We can and should learn which is why I'm surprised we're not moving farther away from socialism.

(01-25-2010 09:30 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

Quote:“What has America become? How can we in America not learn from Germany in the 1930s,” the Oscar-winning director asked.

We can and should learn which is why I'm surprised we're not moving farther away from socialism.

Difference is, we have 234 years of freedom backing us up. Germany was ruled before, as was Iran, Russia, Iraq, France, etc., etc., etc., etc.

These idiots want to start doing some **** the leftist Hitler did, there are going to be a buncha deadass leftists.