If you don't have a good crisis...create one!

5000 dead from Swine flu:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_o..._swine_flu


Ok, we're supposed to be afraid, and put the WHO and CDC in charge! But compare to the 1918 flu: 50-100 million died!

That's a factor of 10,000! And the world population was less than 30% of todays!

In other words

2009: 8 people dead for every 10,000,000
1918: 277,777 people dead for every 10,000,000!

Yet somehow this is headline news.

So what is the difference between now and then if not the CDC? Purell?

How about Polio, Smallpox, etc?

As I write this, my daughter is going back to the hospital with the Swine flu... Now, I don't think it's worse than the typical yearly flu in degree, but it does seem to be pretty nasty in how quickly it is spreading among kids.

If your complaint is about the number of inches that this story gets, then fine. If you're complaining that the Center for Disease Control is doing its mission (attempting to control Disease), then

If you're underlying complaint is that the vaccine causes autism or that it's a secret plot to purge the earth of certain populations (muslims, Bilderberges, or whatever Alex Jones thinks this is all about), then we can have that conversation as well. But, the irrationality of the anti-vaccine movement is something that really pisses me off - especially since it tends to put my kids at risk due to their fruitcake ideas.

(10-23-2009 02:26 PM)I45owl Wrote:  But, the irrationality of the anti-vaccine movement is something that really pisses me off - especially since it tends to put my kids at risk due to their fruitcake ideas.

i'm anti-most vaccines but i have no problem with the industry continuing to develop in whatever way they want. I just want the choice to be able to choose which vaccines i want. For example, as a 22 yr old i see no reason for me to get a flu shot. That's a completely unnecessary injection.

I've been struggling with this. My wife is pregnant and H1N1 appears to be particularly nasty to this demographic. She's been kind of opposed to it, on the general "I don't want to put viruses in my baby" front, and particularly because she's got a kooky client who is giving her all kinds of strange homeopathic-style advice and lately has been trumpeting that "vaccines cause autism" stuff. Also unfortunately, one of my Baker roommates suffered Guillain Barre, not long after the Navy insisted he get a flu vaccine about 20 years ago.

I'm inclined to think that it's probably a good idea to get a shot for her, and the LA Times came out with a pretty informative piece today. Now my wife's on board too.

But the hype/hysteria seems to be hurting as much as helping. And I45 is right: The ill-informed loonies aren't doing us any favors either.

(10-23-2009 02:39 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I've been struggling with this. My wife is pregnant and H1N1 appears to be particularly nasty to this demographic. She's been kind of opposed to it, on the general "I don't want to put viruses in my baby" front, and particularly because she's got a kooky client who is giving her all kinds of strange homeopathic-style advice and lately has been trumpeting that "vaccines cause autism" stuff. Also unfortunately, one of my Baker roommates suffered Guillain Barre, not long after the Navy insisted he get a flu vaccine about 20 years ago.

I'm inclined to think that it's probably a good idea to get a shot for her, and the LA Times came out with a pretty informative piece today. Now my wife's on board too.

But the hype/hysteria seems to be hurting as much as helping. And I45 is right: The ill-informed loonies aren't doing us any favors either.

Congratulations to you and your wife. I pray your wife has a event free pregnancy, and that your new child is born healthy.

I am sure there are no people here that are more informed about this than you or your wife. But My experience is that it is a crap shoot either way you go. Luckily, the odds are in your favor, because you are informed.

My best to you.

(10-23-2009 02:36 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(10-23-2009 02:26 PM)I45owl Wrote:  But, the irrationality of the anti-vaccine movement is something that really pisses me off - especially since it tends to put my kids at risk due to their fruitcake ideas.

i'm anti-most vaccines but i have no problem with the industry continuing to develop in whatever way they want. I just want the choice to be able to choose which vaccines i want. For example, as a 22 yr old i see no reason for me to get a flu shot. That's a completely unnecessary injection.

The flu will almost certainly never be eradicated regardless of efforts by the WHO and CDC. However, the risk that you take in not getting vaccinated is that (1) you may get the flu, which is probably not a big deal, and (2) you may help propagate the flu to others. As a responsible member of society, you should consider that when making your choices, just as you may benefit from other people's choice to get vaccinated. I will leave as assertion here that you are safer if you go unvaccinated in a population that has a high vaccination rate than you are if you are vaccinated in a population with a low vaccination rate. I can back that up with external websites and data and analysis if you want.

Kids are a different matter. I will presume that you don't have any at this stage, given your age. There is very little that you will experience in your life that is more peaceful and sublime than lying next to your sleeping children when they are healthy and breathing well. There is little in your life that is more agitating that seeing that same child have difficulty breathing and skip several breaths before you know for sure that they have not taken their last ... I promise you that you do not want to see your child's lips turn blue.

The number that has been thrown around a lot is that 36,000 people die in this country from the flu every year. That is a lot of people that die unnecessarily if it can be avoided at reasonable cost. Determining what a reasonable cost is cannot be done effectively by a bunch of yahoos that independently use google to make that evaluation. There is most definitely a need for an entity that can track infection, make the statistical analysis of the costs, risks and benefits of vaccines. The CDC does that work pretty effectively and transparently. They generally do a very good job in identifying who should get vaccines and how to best react to pandemic/epidemic situations. I guarantee we would be better off listening to them and getting Oprah and Dr. Oz and Jenny McCarthy off the air entirely (and I will note that I'm not any more comfortable with Obama getting involved in the process than I would be with one of those idiots).

(10-23-2009 02:39 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Also unfortunately, one of my Baker roommates suffered Guillain Barre, not long after the Navy insisted he get a flu vaccine about 20 years ago.

Those are the people that should probably consider not getting vaccinated (and I understand that there is a family history of Guillain Barre) - with doctors' advice. That said, I don't think it's entirely clear whether the vaccine was responsible - or if it was, whether it was a bacterial contamination in the vaccine batches that presumably is less likely today (in any event, that kind of contamination is one of the risks of vaccines - hopefully prior experience makes future occurrences less likely).

An Epidemic of Fear: One Man’s Battle Against the Anti-Vaccine Movement

(10-23-2009 02:39 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I've been struggling with this. My wife is pregnant and H1N1 appears to be particularly nasty to this demographic. She's been kind of opposed to it, on the general "I don't want to put viruses in my baby" front, and particularly because she's got a kooky client who is giving her all kinds of strange homeopathic-style advice and lately has been trumpeting that "vaccines cause autism" stuff. Also unfortunately, one of my Baker roommates suffered Guillain Barre, not long after the Navy insisted he get a flu vaccine about 20 years ago.

I'm inclined to think that it's probably a good idea to get a shot for her, and the LA Times came out with a pretty informative piece today. Now my wife's on board too.

But the hype/hysteria seems to be hurting as much as helping. And I45 is right: The ill-informed loonies aren't doing us any favors either.

Pregnant women aren't supposed to get the nasal vaccine. Just the injectable. Most of what is out there is nasal.

I don't know why it is, but everytime I get a seasonal flu shot, I get the flu. Injection reaction, but I come down with the bug. I'm out 4 days at least.

I'm not going tio get the H1N1 simply because I know I will get sick. My doctor advised me against getting the shot.

(10-23-2009 02:26 PM)I45owl Wrote:  So what is the difference between now and then if not the CDC? Purell?

How about Polio, Smallpox, etc?

As I write this, my daughter is going back to the hospital with the Swine flu... Now, I don't think it's worse than the typical yearly flu in degree, but it does seem to be pretty nasty in how quickly it is spreading among kids.

If your complaint is about the number of inches that this story gets, then fine. If you're complaining that the Center for Disease Control is doing its mission (attempting to control Disease), then

It's the coverage, and the play that we must obey CDC, WHO, etc.

What's the difference? How about differences?

We don't have Wilson sending infected troops abroad...malnourished troops, spending weeks in trenches and being exposed to chemical agents.

We have improved nutrition throughout the world, and improved health (such as respiratory diseases).

All of that contributes. Yes, the CDC has aided much of that, but fear-mongering and heavy handed tyranny are not necessary.

Fear mongering? The article is surprisingly factual. Heavy handed tyranny? You act as if the government is offering you a choice between a needle and a bullet in the back of the head.

SumOfAllFears Wrote:Congratulations to you and your wife. I pray your wife has a event free pregnancy, and that your new child is born healthy.

Thanks!

I45owl Wrote:I don't think it's entirely clear whether the vaccine was responsible - or if it was, whether it was a bacterial contamination in the vaccine batches that presumably is less likely today (in any event, that kind of contamination is one of the risks of vaccines - hopefully prior experience makes future occurrences less likely).

Totally agree. My point in bringing it up is it's this kind of anecdotal evidence that is easy to grab on to when you already have some fear, and having it happen to a close friend makes it just that more scary, even if the odds are still very remote.

WMD Owl Wrote:Pregnant women aren't supposed to get the nasal vaccine. Just the injectable. Most of what is out there is nasal.

Yep. We've already gotten the "regular" shots. No access to H1N1 yet.

For those who enjoy filing complaints: We read that there are a few clinics around the city today that are offering H1N1 vaccines for high risk people (including, of course, pregnant women). But upon further examination, it turns out these vaccines are only for THE UNINSURED at high risk. Those of us who are paying for our insurance will have to wait. I'm trying to figure out why a lack of insurance makes you a higher priority for flu prevention.

My girlfriend had the ***** for one day and feared the had the swine flu even though she had no other symptoms. It's ridiculous.

Seems to be confusion about the CDC. They do very little beyond issuing statements and press releases. And they are simply wrong an awful lot of the time. Swine flu being the latest example. Politics and influence peddlers. Just another expensive bureaucracy that could be done away with.

At the Cleveland Clinic yesterday the lines were packed with people a hell of alot smarter than you or me. If the Dr.'s are lining up for the shot. You should line up for the shot. They had the nasal (activated-live) and the injection (deactivated-dead). 99% of the Dr's got the injection for what it's worth. They were going to give me the shot at the end if they had any at 5 so I stuck around for awhile on the side of the line. They ran out of the injectable so I didn't get the H1N1.

Don't know if that's for me or a previous post, but for my part, I will pass on the h1n1. There are people far more vulnerable than me, and supply is limited. Except for those high risk groups, it just hasn't become a problem, as flus go. Got my regular shot, began for the first time last year. I'm 50 now and it's a good ideal for me. Really a good idea for everyone. All the press about swine flu is ridiculous. They would save far more lives focusing on a far greater killer, seasonal flu.

Anyone who wants the h1n1 should get it if they get access to it and they should have no fear of it. But no one should panic if they can't get it either.

(10-24-2009 09:11 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Seems to be confusion about the CDC. They do very little beyond issuing statements and press releases. And they are simply wrong an awful lot of the time. Swine flu being the latest example. Politics and influence peddlers. Just another expensive bureaucracy that could be done away with.

Obama's President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology said that H1N1 would kill 90,000 Americans, put 1.8 million in the Hospital, with 300,000 of those in ICU.

The CDC shot that "Chicken Little" projection down pretty quick.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/a...key=105022

The flu can kill you. I feel sorry for anyone that gets it. But the way the media hypes this makes it sound like almost the "Black Plague" of Europe and everyone is going to die.

I'm not getting the shot, but I fly often. That's why I have a pack of masks that I wear on the plane in my briefcase. Airplane air is dirty.

(10-24-2009 09:27 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  At the Cleveland Clinic yesterday the lines were packed with people a hell of alot smarter than you or me. If the Dr.'s are lining up for the shot. You should line up for the shot. They had the nasal (activated-live) and the injection (deactivated-dead). 99% of the Dr's got the injection for what it's worth. They were going to give me the shot at the end if they had any at 5 so I stuck around for awhile on the side of the line. They ran out of the injectable so I didn't get the H1N1.

1. Speak for yourself.

2. MDs get exposed to all sorts of people having all sorts of conditions. They have to take that sort of prevention.

Sorry to be such a rational wet blanket on your panic.

Omama just declared an h1n1 national emergency. And the "regular" flu carries on it's deadly march unnoticed.

(10-24-2009 10:55 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Omama just declared an h1n1 national emergency. And the "regular" flu carries on it's deadly march unnoticed.

I will find it hard to believe politicians, whatever they say. They have their motives, unbeknown to us. It's too bad that instead of giving the microphone to the Doctors, the Doctors have to speak over and louder than the politburo.

And yes I'm calling the white house and congress the politburo, from now on.