Didn't remember the numbers but yes.

I-45, I think the COMPLAINT is that while 5,000 have died from swine flu... something like 30,000 die each year from "seasonal" flu... and while I haven't gone back to verify that number, I heard it from someone I consider to be reliable on matters like these (a Dr)

Add on top of that that this "crisis" was supposed to have been met by 100mm doses of vaccine by now, yet only something like 1/4 of that amount has been supplied so far.... so anxiety with no solutions, and though it is clearly different than seasonal, is it really more dangerous??

(10-26-2009 08:57 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Did you know that in 1976, the last time we had this type of hype, more people died from vaccine reactions (26) than from the swine flu itself (1).

Would that have been true without the vaccinations (obviously, the 26 would not have died, but how many would have died from the flu)?

(10-27-2009 12:20 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I-45, I think the COMPLAINT is that while 5,000 have died from swine flu... something like 30,000 die each year from "seasonal" flu... and while I haven't gone back to verify that number, I heard it from someone I consider to be reliable on matters like these (a Dr)

Add on top of that that this "crisis" was supposed to have been met by 100mm doses of vaccine by now, yet only something like 1/4 of that amount has been supplied so far.... so anxiety with no solutions, and though it is clearly different than seasonal, is it really more dangerous??

The number of people that die from the flu by this time of year is typically pretty small. I don't think that I've argued that it is more dangerous than the regular flu. My symptoms have been pretty mild compared to other flu that I've had - it just seems to have hit my chest harder with asthma like symptoms. My kids are both back in school now. All things considered, I wish the vaccine had been available earlier. Whether the cost of the special vaccine program was theoretically worth it and whether it was worth it in practice are analyses that need to be done by those with medical and statistical expertise. The population that this flu kills is somewhat different than most flu, so I don't think the number of deaths projects with the same pattern as most flu.

I've already conceded that having the president declare this as a national crisis this has been over-hyped. (and really, when someone takes fiscal responsibility as recklessly as this president does, why not?)

(10-27-2009 12:20 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I-45, I think the COMPLAINT is that while 5,000 have died from swine flu... something like 30,000 die each year from "seasonal" flu... and while I haven't gone back to verify that number, I heard it from someone I consider to be reliable on matters like these (a Dr)

Add on top of that that this "crisis" was supposed to have been met by 100mm doses of vaccine by now, yet only something like 1/4 of that amount has been supplied so far.... so anxiety with no solutions, and though it is clearly different than seasonal, is it really more dangerous??

36,000 seasonal flu deaths in the U.S. alone.
vs. just passing 1000 swine flu deaths.

World wide seasonal flu kills between a quarter and half a million.
vs. 5000 swine flu deaths

As to the age... and it's interesting that someone brought up something similar in 1976... I thought I heard that the reason younger people are more at risk because they haven't been exposed to something similar many years ago while older people have SOME immunity/resistance

I-45, you know I have great respect for you, so I hope my comment didn't sound insensitive. If it did, I am sorry. I hope you and your family continue to improve. We talk about 5,000 or 30,000 like it is an insignificant number... and in the grand scheme of things it is... but of course, to those 30,000 and their families... not to mention the tens of thousands who might have only been saved by the efforts of trained and gifted doctors... it is ANYTHING but insignificant.

HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR5p_bD3u...=topvideos

(10-27-2009 02:51 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR5p_bD3u...=topvideos

Damn!!!

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

Of course, even THAT comes from a decent place (usually)

Autism affects MANY children and we're looking for a reason/cause/excuse... and at the moment, the best guess is vaccine's.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is when you don't know what the cause is...

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

Of course, even THAT comes from a decent place (usually)

I beg to differ - it seems like opportunistic hucksters and unethical lawyers.

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Autism affects MANY children and we're looking for a reason/cause/excuse... and at the moment, the best guess is vaccine's.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is when you don't know what the cause is...

No, it's not the best guess of the cause of Autism by a long shot.

(10-27-2009 06:50 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

Of course, even THAT comes from a decent place (usually)

I beg to differ - it seems like opportunistic hucksters and unethical lawyers.

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Autism affects MANY children and we're looking for a reason/cause/excuse... and at the moment, the best guess is vaccine's.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is when you don't know what the cause is...

No, it's not the best guess of the cause of Autism by a long shot.

Your wife's friends are hucksters??

As to the latter, both of my kids have been diagnosed as such... so I speak from SOME experience... I don't agree with the comment because of when things started, but i know that a great number of people believe that.

(10-27-2009 02:51 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR5p_bD3u...=topvideos

Psychogenic dystonia?

(10-27-2009 06:50 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

Of course, even THAT comes from a decent place (usually)

I beg to differ - it seems like opportunistic hucksters and unethical lawyers.

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Autism affects MANY children and we're looking for a reason/cause/excuse... and at the moment, the best guess is vaccine's.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is when you don't know what the cause is...

No, it's not the best guess of the cause of Autism by a long shot.

Want to hear about the Scam of the Centrury? (Not counting the Obama Administration)

Flying in tonight to Atlanta I noticed this setup about half way down Councorse B at Hartsfield Jackson Airport--this is little koisk called "Aeroclinic" where for $75.00 you can get a "swine flu shot".

There was a Physicians Assistant giving shots to people--there were people actually rolling up their shirts and getting an injection.

OK.. Riddle me this... what's wrong with this picture?

1. How did Aeroclinic get injectable swine flu vaccine when nobody else has it?

My guess is this stock is "diverted" from CDC located a quick 25 miles away.

Or its fake-- someone is shooting you up with distilled water.

The other thing is that it takes at least a week for the immune response to be triggered after you get the shot. So if you are exposed to the swine flu within that time, the vaccination is worthless.

(10-27-2009 09:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 06:50 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

Of course, even THAT comes from a decent place (usually)

I beg to differ - it seems like opportunistic hucksters and unethical lawyers.

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Autism affects MANY children and we're looking for a reason/cause/excuse... and at the moment, the best guess is vaccine's.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is when you don't know what the cause is...

No, it's not the best guess of the cause of Autism by a long shot.

Your wife's friends are hucksters??

As to the latter, both of my kids have been diagnosed as such... so I speak from SOME experience... I don't agree with the comment because of when things started, but i know that a great number of people believe that.

The ideas began with hucksters, propagated by Oprah, Jenny McCarthy, et al, then by my wife's friends. Autism, Guillain Barre, and this Dystonia case are all tragic diseases. Even if there were definitive cause-and-effect between all of these and vaccines (and IMHO, Guillain Barre is the only one of these that is at all likely), then you still have to weigh the risks of death from the numerous diseases that are addressed with vaccines. Of these, the flu (36000 deaths annually) may be the least serious.

(10-27-2009 09:15 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Want to hear about the Scam of the Centrury? (Not counting the Obama Administration)

Flying in tonight to Atlanta I noticed this setup about half way down Councorse B at Hartsfield Jackson Airport--this is little koisk called "Aeroclinic" where for $75.00 you can get a "swine flu shot".

There was a Physicians Assistant giving shots to people--there were people actually rolling up their shirts and getting an injection.

OK.. Riddle me this... what's wrong with this picture?

1. How did Aeroclinic get injectable swine flu vaccine when nobody else has it?

My guess is this stock is "diverted" from CDC located a quick 25 miles away.

Or its fake-- someone is shooting you up with distilled water.

The other thing is that it takes at least a week for the immune response to be triggered after you get the shot. So if you are exposed to the swine flu within that time, the vaccination is worthless.

The other possibility is that there is truth in advertising and they are injecting you with the swine flu (no CDC required).

(10-27-2009 09:21 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 09:15 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Want to hear about the Scam of the Centrury? (Not counting the Obama Administration)

Flying in tonight to Atlanta I noticed this setup about half way down Councorse B at Hartsfield Jackson Airport--this is little koisk called "Aeroclinic" where for $75.00 you can get a "swine flu shot".

There was a Physicians Assistant giving shots to people--there were people actually rolling up their shirts and getting an injection.

OK.. Riddle me this... what's wrong with this picture?

1. How did Aeroclinic get injectable swine flu vaccine when nobody else has it?

My guess is this stock is "diverted" from CDC located a quick 25 miles away.

Or its fake-- someone is shooting you up with distilled water.

The other thing is that it takes at least a week for the immune response to be triggered after you get the shot. So if you are exposed to the swine flu within that time, the vaccination is worthless.

The other possibility is that there is truth in advertising and they are injecting you with the swine flu (no CDC required).

(10-27-2009 09:19 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 09:01 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 06:50 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 01:46 PM)I45owl Wrote:  HBone - not at all. The only thing that has perhaps caused me to lose some perspective on the whole thing is the anti-vaccine propaganda that some of my wife's friends have pushed and that you see at-large.

Of course, even THAT comes from a decent place (usually)

I beg to differ - it seems like opportunistic hucksters and unethical lawyers.

(10-27-2009 05:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Autism affects MANY children and we're looking for a reason/cause/excuse... and at the moment, the best guess is vaccine's.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is when you don't know what the cause is...

No, it's not the best guess of the cause of Autism by a long shot.

Your wife's friends are hucksters??

As to the latter, both of my kids have been diagnosed as such... so I speak from SOME experience... I don't agree with the comment because of when things started, but i know that a great number of people believe that.

The ideas began with hucksters, propagated by Oprah, Jenny McCarthy, et al, then by my wife's friends. Autism, Guillain Barre, and this Dystonia case are all tragic diseases. Even if there were definitive cause-and-effect between all of these and vaccines (and IMHO, Guillain Barre is the only one of these that is at all likely), then you still have to weigh the risks of death from the numerous diseases that are addressed with vaccines. Of these, the flu (36000 deaths annually) may be the least serious.

My biggest objection is that early concerns were w/ MMR, the combined vaccination. There is no simple option to have these separate, and over the course of time.

I realize not everyone is asking for the same thing, but that's what I ask for: the ability to separate these, and spread them over months. Because, it's not an insane proposition to me to believe you overwhelm some babies' systems w/ too much of the stuff.

(10-28-2009 07:32 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  My biggest objection is that early concerns were w/ MMR, the combined vaccination. There is no simple option to have these separate, and over the course of time.

I realize not everyone is asking for the same thing, but that's what I ask for: the ability to separate these, and spread them over months. Because, it's not an insane proposition to me to believe you overwhelm some babies' systems w/ too much of the stuff.

The problem with a lot of these ideas is not that they're insane. It's that they don't stand up to scrutiny in terms of empirical evidence. An equally (hyperbolically speaking) not-insane proposition is that by taking the baby to the hospital three times instead of one, you'd stress the baby out so much that you might lead it to be prone to disease just because of stress. Or, the more substantive not-insane point that hospitals (and I presume doctors' offices) are among the most dangerous places to take healthy (or even sick) patients because they are cesspools of disease. Or that by sticking the baby three times instead of one you triple the possibility of bacterial infection.

I realize that you and many others are wont to trust any government agency for almost any reason. But, vaccination is probably one of the best uses of quasi-governmental agencies that exists. They have the ability to track vaccinations and side effects better than virtually any professional organization, to impose standards (with a heavy or light hand as it may be) and to determine policy in a way that can successfully eradicate certain diseases.

There has to be something that separates the not insane ideas expressed above and propagated across the internet from any kind of reliable policy for doctors to follow. I'd submit that a credible agency with the data to back up its policy, along with transparent access to that data provides it.

Well here it is, almost Halloween, and of the 250 million doses HHS said would be available by mid Oct. There is only 20 million doses nationwide. Sounds like a possible Katrina type failure.

(10-28-2009 02:24 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Well here it is, almost Halloween, and of the 250 million doses HHS said would be available by mid Oct. There is only 20 million doses nationwide. Sounds like a possible Katrina type failure.

And these same peope said they can take care of our total health care.