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Higher Education, cost/quality
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #1
Higher Education, cost/quality
This is up Torch's ally, might want to pick up the latest issue of National Review:

http://www.davidbahnsen.com/index.php/20...ot-better/

Quote:Dr. Richard Vedder is one of the finest economists in America. More specifically, he is an economic historian, a respected academic, and an important contributor to the dialogue on higher education in our country. In the most recent issue of National Review he wrote a crucially important article on the utter disaster that is our under-graduate education system (unfortunately, it is only available online to subscribers of the magazine). A few points need to be made …

Dr. Vedder begins by pointing out that the only other area in American society that have seen the kind of price inflation that college tuition has seen over the last generation is, well, health care. It is no coincidence to this economist that the only two areas that successfully separate the person paying the bill from the person receiving the good or service are the two areas with the highest price inflation. Neither the consumer nor the producer pays the bills, leaving resources to be allocated ever so inefficiently. College universities are “non-profit institutions”, begging them to add to this inefficiency. They have no profit motive to cut costs, and no profit motive to increase revenues. Shockingly, the only criteria available for how well they are doing comes from the U.S. News and World Report, which bases its analysis on how many “customers” they turn away (the alleged selectivity of who gets into various university programs).

.......
Most shockingly, Vedder indicts the “research” capabilities of today’s academic instituions, wondering why 22,000 new articles of Shakespeare have been submitted since 1980 alone. “Are there that many new and insightful thoughts to be had about the Bard?” Economic growth is suffering as a result of our subsidization of this half-ass research; it is not being stimulated.


Profits = good
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2009 08:58 AM by GGniner.)
10-12-2009 08:51 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
(10-12-2009 08:51 AM)GGniner Wrote:  This is up Torch's ally, might want to pick up the latest issue of National Review:
http://www.davidbahnsen.com/index.php/20...ot-better/
Quote:Dr. Richard Vedder is one of the finest economists in America. More specifically, he is an economic historian, a respected academic, and an important contributor to the dialogue on higher education in our country. In the most recent issue of National Review he wrote a crucially important article on the utter disaster that is our under-graduate education system (unfortunately, it is only available online to subscribers of the magazine). A few points need to be made …
Dr. Vedder begins by pointing out that the only other area in American society that have seen the kind of price inflation that college tuition has seen over the last generation is, well, health care. It is no coincidence to this economist that the only two areas that successfully separate the person paying the bill from the person receiving the good or service are the two areas with the highest price inflation. Neither the consumer nor the producer pays the bills, leaving resources to be allocated ever so inefficiently. College universities are “non-profit institutions”, begging them to add to this inefficiency. They have no profit motive to cut costs, and no profit motive to increase revenues. Shockingly, the only criteria available for how well they are doing comes from the U.S. News and World Report, which bases its analysis on how many “customers” they turn away (the alleged selectivity of who gets into various university programs).
.......
Most shockingly, Vedder indicts the “research” capabilities of today’s academic instituions, wondering why 22,000 new articles of Shakespeare have been submitted since 1980 alone. “Are there that many new and insightful thoughts to be had about the Bard?” Economic growth is suffering as a result of our subsidization of this half-ass research; it is not being stimulated.
Profits = good

Agree, and this simply doesn't augur well for where we are headed.
10-12-2009 10:16 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
Thanks!

Looks good, although I'd disagree on the similarities between health care and education. Not that many educational insitutions getting sued, (only one I'm aware of http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/03/new.yor...index.html) while malpractice is a big driver for health care climb. Plus, you actually get something for the money you spend on health care.

The 20K articles on Shakespeare are telling. Especially when this is the result you get

http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/3...d-feminism
10-12-2009 12:16 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
So my directional state school education and it's concurrent lack of student loan debt may actually be a good thing?

Suck it Harvard! Suck it Rice! (kidding kidding) and Suck it Toledo, just because.
10-12-2009 02:04 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
(10-12-2009 02:04 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So my directional state school education and it's concurrent lack of student loan debt may actually be a good thing?

Suck it Harvard! Suck it Rice! (kidding kidding) and Suck it Toledo, just because.

Actually, one of the unique aspects of Rice has historically been that it's cheap. It's getting more expensive, but it's still cheaper than places like Baylor or SMU in state. So us Owls get out with less student loan debt than most.

We're growing quite a bit right now (we have doubled in size since my undergrad days and now are, or soon will be, over 4000 undergrad) and losing some of that as a consequence, and there's a lot of debate among alums as to whether that's a good idea or not. Personally, I'd like to keep the undergrad part small and add more top-tier grad programs (like the pending merger with Baylor Med School).

There were 490 in my freshman class, and three weeks into the school year, we beat #2 Texas in Austin. That was pretty special. We actually played .500 ball against Texas, LSU, and Texas A&M from the 1930s to the 1960s. That would obviously not be possible today, and I regret that.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2009 04:18 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-12-2009 04:17 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
how much does Rice currently cost?

I know someone who just got out of a NC private law school, 3yrs, 140k in student loan debt to pay back. I don't see how those grads, if they don't land a killer job or come from money aren't screwed.
10-12-2009 04:24 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
Tuition is right at $30,000 a year now, but financial aid is so generous that very few pay that. The policy used to be that nobody would be denied because they couldn't afford it; they would simply make whatever accomodations were necessary to make the dog hunt. I'm guessing the average student pays well less than $30,000 today, all in (incluidng room, board, books, fees, etc.), probably around $15,000 or so.

One consequence used to be that we got a fair number of rich kids. They were means-tested out of almost any financial aid, and as a result they would go to the cheapest place they could.
10-12-2009 04:45 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
(10-12-2009 02:04 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So my directional state school education and it's concurrent lack of student loan debt may actually be a good thing?

Suck it Harvard! Suck it Rice! (kidding kidding) and Suck it Toledo, just because.

You make contacts at Harvard, MIT and Stanfraud that you don't make other places. There is undeniable value in such things.

But yes, I would say that your no debt NIU degree was a better choice than my somewhat expensive (nowhere near GWU expensive) degree from a nearby private school.
10-12-2009 04:48 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
$15k is probably closer to what a market based rate would be, if not lower, without aide
10-12-2009 04:50 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
(10-12-2009 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-12-2009 02:04 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So my directional state school education and it's concurrent lack of student loan debt may actually be a good thing?

Suck it Harvard! Suck it Rice! (kidding kidding) and Suck it Toledo, just because.

Actually, one of the unique aspects of Rice has historically been that it's cheap. It's getting more expensive, but it's still cheaper than places like Baylor or SMU in state. So us Owls get out with less student loan debt than most.

In my era, Smalley and Curl did so much good for Rice, that I've always understood it to be a top university. I also had a string of advisors/supervisors who came from there in some fashion, so I'm biased.
10-12-2009 05:03 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
(10-12-2009 05:03 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  In my era, Smalley and Curl did so much good for Rice, that I've always understood it to be a top university. I also had a string of advisors/supervisors who came from there in some fashion, so I'm biased.

I didn't know Smalley as well as I should have, and I regret that. I did get to know Curl pretty well.

One advantage of such a small school is that you really can get to know just about everyone. I just didn't take advantage of the opportunity to get to know Smalley. My former step-brother did, and it was a great experience for him.
10-12-2009 05:07 PM
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OUBOBCATJOHN Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
I took Dr Vedder's economics class at Ohio University. He knows his stuff. One of the best classes I had in college. Dr Vedder and I were probably the only conservatives on campus. His class was a breath of fresh air in a town full of liberals. He always was up for a beer on Court street to debate economics with anyone. He tells a lot of jokes. His stories about having drinks with Ted Kennedy at 3pm on capital hill everyday were classic. He said Kennedy didn't know jack about economics, but was always up for drinks to debate about it.
10-13-2009 12:33 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Higher Education, cost/quality
(10-13-2009 12:33 AM)OUBOBCATJOHN Wrote:  He said (Lord Stanley) didn't know jack about (economics, marketing, sales, cars etc,) but was always up for drinks to debate about it.
10-13-2009 08:19 AM
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