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I can't let this guy be a superintendent
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flyingswoosh Offline
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Post: #21
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
correct me if i'm wrong, but one of the problems is not the amount of time students spend in school, it's the standards.
09-27-2009 11:41 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #22
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-27-2009 07:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I will always say that there are just as many republicans as democrats in unions.

And you would be saying that without a shred of evidence to back up that oh, so well thought out statement.
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2009 12:15 AM by SumOfAllFears.)
09-28-2009 12:10 AM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 12:10 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(09-27-2009 07:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I will always say that there are just as many republicans as democrats in unions.

And you would be saying that without a shred of evidence to back up that oh, so well thought out statement.

Life experience tells me so. Believe it or not, there are counties, towns, and cities out there where the people don't have a real choice in whether or not to work for union jobs or not. My town, Henderson, NC, has about two decent paying facilities right now that are both union. It is known that those two jobs are the best paying with the best benefits in the area (3 counties), compared to fast food and walmart stores or course which were the only competition. Let me tell you, the plant that I spent summers at was mostly republican voting people who were a part of the union. It happens like that all over the place. Just because you work a union job doesn't make you a democrat, sorry for your busted assumption.
09-28-2009 12:43 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #24
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-27-2009 04:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think this is that bad an idea. I think we are going to have to go that way in some manner.

IMO this is nowhere near the worst 100 ideas of the Obama administration.

Only because you can find 100 worse ideas.

This is a terrible idea. It will raise education costs by 50% easily, probably more.

It will do virtually NOTHING to improve true education.

It will however, keep kids away from their parents for more hours, effectively as wards for the state. And parents can work more hours to pay the tax increases that this will cause.

A Brave New World.
09-28-2009 07:01 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #25
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-27-2009 11:41 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  correct me if i'm wrong, but one of the problems is not the amount of time students spend in school, it's the standards.

It's the teaching methods, and the lack of parental involvement. The teaching methods however, discourage parental involvement. What the NEA wants is active, COMPLIANT parents: Do what they say, and don't think for yourself, don't question the educators' authority.
09-28-2009 07:04 AM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #26
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 12:43 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:10 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(09-27-2009 07:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I will always say that there are just as many republicans as democrats in unions.

And you would be saying that without a shred of evidence to back up that oh, so well thought out statement.

Life experience tells me so. Believe it or not, there are counties, towns, and cities out there where the people don't have a real choice in whether or not to work for union jobs or not. My town, Henderson, NC, has about two decent paying facilities right now that are both union. It is known that those two jobs are the best paying with the best benefits in the area (3 counties), compared to fast food and walmart stores or course which were the only competition. Let me tell you, the plant that I spent summers at was mostly republican voting people who were a part of the union. It happens like that all over the place. Just because you work a union job doesn't make you a democrat, sorry for your busted assumption.

Just exactly how do you know that: "mostly republican voting people who were a part of the union. " They look like Republicans?

Not a shred of evidence to back up that either. Maybe they just "feel" like Republicans.
09-28-2009 08:11 AM
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flyingswoosh Offline
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Post: #27
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 07:04 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-27-2009 11:41 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  correct me if i'm wrong, but one of the problems is not the amount of time students spend in school, it's the standards.

It's the teaching methods, and the lack of parental involvement. The teaching methods however, discourage parental involvement. What the NEA wants is active, COMPLIANT parents: Do what they say, and don't think for yourself, don't question the educators' authority.

yeah i forgot about that. Most parents would rather just leave it up to the schools.
09-28-2009 10:21 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #28
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 10:21 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 07:04 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-27-2009 11:41 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  correct me if i'm wrong, but one of the problems is not the amount of time students spend in school, it's the standards.

It's the teaching methods, and the lack of parental involvement. The teaching methods however, discourage parental involvement. What the NEA wants is active, COMPLIANT parents: Do what they say, and don't think for yourself, don't question the educators' authority.

yeah i forgot about that. Most parents would rather just leave it up to the schools.

There is a broad mix among parents.

1) Many care, but are told to "trust the professionals" so they do so. Among those, many were conditioned in the public schools, so they know to "obey teacher." I don't sympathize here. We have neighbors like that, all I can do is shake my head.

Others don't have the confidence that they can teach their children. Especially if they endured poor methods in school. They feel "I don't get it, I'm just not smart." Instead of challenging that they may have endured poor teaching on the basics. I do sympathize here. That's a tough hole to dig from, but one that the Horace Mann's, John Dewey's, and Arne Duncan's are happy to put most citizens in.

2) Many care and put some effort to help their kids. They take their kids to Sylvan, if they can afford it. Others restrict their kids' play and activity time, believing that more time will help. More time w/a flawed system only hurts the cause, the kids think they're dumb, and they don't even get to burn off the energy and improve their health.

3) Others take their kids out of public schools. This helps some, if you can find a good alternative. But the rule of thumb is that you teach the way you were taught. W/ bad education being so prevalent, even these alternatives often repeat the public school mistakes.
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2009 12:09 PM by DrTorch.)
09-28-2009 10:35 AM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 08:11 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:43 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:10 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(09-27-2009 07:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I will always say that there are just as many republicans as democrats in unions.

And you would be saying that without a shred of evidence to back up that oh, so well thought out statement.

Life experience tells me so. Believe it or not, there are counties, towns, and cities out there where the people don't have a real choice in whether or not to work for union jobs or not. My town, Henderson, NC, has about two decent paying facilities right now that are both union. It is known that those two jobs are the best paying with the best benefits in the area (3 counties), compared to fast food and walmart stores or course which were the only competition. Let me tell you, the plant that I spent summers at was mostly republican voting people who were a part of the union. It happens like that all over the place. Just because you work a union job doesn't make you a democrat, sorry for your busted assumption.

Just exactly how do you know that: "mostly republican voting people who were a part of the union. " They look like Republicans?

Not a shred of evidence to back up that either. Maybe they just "feel" like Republicans.

We took breaks and I've talked to all of them because I like politics. In fact most of them would find you to talk to you about it whether you like it or not. If you go into the parking lot you will see a good smattering of McCain/Palin, Bush/Cheney, or just Ron Paul bumper stickers.

Now if you want a chart I would have to say that I haven't had time to do a large sample statistical experiment, so you may be a little out of luck. But sir I do challenge you, only if you want, to find statistics that would point to the contrary.
09-28-2009 12:01 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 12:43 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:10 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(09-27-2009 07:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I will always say that there are just as many republicans as democrats in unions.

And you would be saying that without a shred of evidence to back up that oh, so well thought out statement.

Life experience tells me so. Believe it or not, there are counties, towns, and cities out there where the people don't have a real choice in whether or not to work for union jobs or not. My town, Henderson, NC, has about two decent paying facilities right now that are both union. It is known that those two jobs are the best paying with the best benefits in the area (3 counties), compared to fast food and walmart stores or course which were the only competition. Let me tell you, the plant that I spent summers at was mostly republican voting people who were a part of the union. It happens like that all over the place. Just because you work a union job doesn't make you a democrat, sorry for your busted assumption.

http://www.house.state.pa.us/CJPS/docume...v11_a2.pdf
Code:
Labor Union Household Voting in Presidential Elections, 1992-2000
Presidential Vote of Union Members
             % of electorate
                  residing in                                                Democratic
               union households Democrat      Republican   Other*            Margin*
1992                 19           55            24         21                  31
1996                 23           59            30          9                  29
2000                 26           59            37          3                  22
* The other vote was for Ross Perot in 1992 and 1996 and primarily for
Ralph Nader inz 2000.
The Democratic margin was calculated by subtracting the Republican
percentage of the union household vote from the Democratic percentage of
the union hou.5ehold vote-
09-28-2009 12:30 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #31
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
Nah, longer hours won't work. And more days will just mean more glassed over eyes during US History in June...... I know this because my wife taught at a year round public school in Illinois.

If you want to see real change, my suggestion is to have the day start later. There is a ton of real science showing these kids are tired and unmotivated for an 8am or a 9am start time. If a teenager needs 10hrs a sleep a day to be healthy, and kids don't go to bed until late night, the day should start later.

Kids, especially teenagers in high school, would really benefit from a 10am to 5pm school day.
09-28-2009 12:34 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
I think shorter periods in high school would be a lot of help. Sitting 90 minutes in 4 straight classes ain't easy, i've done it. After about 45 of those minutes my mind went away from the lesson and across the room to the tv clock. Get away from the block schedule.
09-28-2009 12:39 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #33
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 12:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Nah, longer hours won't work. And more days will just mean more glassed over eyes during US History in June...... I know this because my wife taught at a year round public school in Illinois.

If you want to see real change, my suggestion is to have the day start later. There is a ton of real science showing these kids are tired and unmotivated for an 8am or a 9am start time. If a teenager needs 10hrs a sleep a day to be healthy, and kids don't go to bed until late night, the day should start later.

Kids, especially teenagers in high school, would really benefit from a 10am to 5pm school day.

Not enough sleep hurts many kids. Parents often have no idea that their kids need more sleep, too much adrenalin makes them think they're not tired at all. In reality, all that adrenalin is their bodies' way of helping them stay awake. But it's terrible for learning.

Diet plays a big role too, both to help/hinder learning, and sleep.

This is why I don't think schools are serious about teaching...they're more concerned w/ getting more money for the latest newfangled program. If they were concerned, they'd encourage parents to improve these two areas...with the added benefit for parents that they have more peaceful homes.
09-28-2009 01:34 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #34
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 01:34 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Nah, longer hours won't work. And more days will just mean more glassed over eyes during US History in June...... I know this because my wife taught at a year round public school in Illinois.

If you want to see real change, my suggestion is to have the day start later. There is a ton of real science showing these kids are tired and unmotivated for an 8am or a 9am start time. If a teenager needs 10hrs a sleep a day to be healthy, and kids don't go to bed until late night, the day should start later.

Kids, especially teenagers in high school, would really benefit from a 10am to 5pm school day.

Not enough sleep hurts many kids. Parents often have no idea that their kids need more sleep, too much adrenalin makes them think they're not tired at all. In reality, all that adrenalin is their bodies' way of helping them stay awake. But it's terrible for learning.

Diet plays a big role too, both to help/hinder learning, and sleep.

This is why I don't think schools are serious about teaching...they're more concerned w/ getting more money for the latest newfangled program. If they were concerned, they'd encourage parents to improve these two areas...with the added benefit for parents that they have more peaceful homes.

I know parents that have their kids on ADD medicine (aka speed) because they don't focus well during the day, and at the same time the parents say their kids can't go to sleep without the TV on or some such thing ... I know these kids (8-10 yrs. old) stay up to 9:00+ on a regular basis. Just when and how to tell other parents how to raise their kids is a struggle.
09-28-2009 02:41 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #35
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
I'm actually in favor of LESS time in school. They piddle away almost 1/2 the day accomplishing nothing. Public school is mostly a big daycare center that turns out obedient little slaves of the state. It is of course... modeled on the Prussian system...so...no surprise.
09-28-2009 06:24 PM
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Ersatz Offline
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Post: #36
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
I know this thread is kinda old but I am going to put in my input, an input coming from a family where all the females in it are teachers. I live in NC and the teachers are paid crap to start with. My wife is a teacher and hearing and seeing some of the stuff she goes through on a day to day basis is mind blowing. They should be paid more. I like the idea of starting later and finishing later but that leaves the question how do some of these kids get to school. In Greenville if you live close to your school a school bus won't come for you, but at the same time you might live far enough away to not walk. My wife and sister both teach elementary school so my input is for K-5.

Each state has a different standard of education, if there was one set standard that might help, but at the same time, it might hurt, just an idea.

I am in no way in favor of a year round public school. I am 24, almost 25 years old so I still remember High School very well and what is was like to be a kid. I loved to play sports but I was never any good to make the school teams. I played Little League baseball, and parks and rec football and tennis, of course during the summer. Activities like this teaches young kids another form of interaction, competition, pride, disappointment. All these things that would be taken away with a year round school (well in theory at least).
09-29-2009 12:03 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #37
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-28-2009 02:41 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 01:34 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Nah, longer hours won't work. And more days will just mean more glassed over eyes during US History in June...... I know this because my wife taught at a year round public school in Illinois.

If you want to see real change, my suggestion is to have the day start later. There is a ton of real science showing these kids are tired and unmotivated for an 8am or a 9am start time. If a teenager needs 10hrs a sleep a day to be healthy, and kids don't go to bed until late night, the day should start later.

Kids, especially teenagers in high school, would really benefit from a 10am to 5pm school day.

Not enough sleep hurts many kids. Parents often have no idea that their kids need more sleep, too much adrenalin makes them think they're not tired at all. In reality, all that adrenalin is their bodies' way of helping them stay awake. But it's terrible for learning.

Diet plays a big role too, both to help/hinder learning, and sleep.

This is why I don't think schools are serious about teaching...they're more concerned w/ getting more money for the latest newfangled program. If they were concerned, they'd encourage parents to improve these two areas...with the added benefit for parents that they have more peaceful homes.

I know parents that have their kids on ADD medicine (aka speed) because they don't focus well during the day, and at the same time the parents say their kids can't go to sleep without the TV on or some such thing ... I know these kids (8-10 yrs. old) stay up to 9:00+ on a regular basis. Just when and how to tell other parents how to raise their kids is a struggle.

It is rather idealistic, but it is far more reasonable and cost effective than the programs they do push.

And we've seen schools contribute greatly to the decline of our society over the course of 2-3 generations. Who knows, if they pushed some sensible ideas, they may have a positive effect over the next 2-3 generations.
09-29-2009 07:22 AM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #38
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-29-2009 07:22 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 02:41 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 01:34 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Nah, longer hours won't work. And more days will just mean more glassed over eyes during US History in June...... I know this because my wife taught at a year round public school in Illinois.

If you want to see real change, my suggestion is to have the day start later. There is a ton of real science showing these kids are tired and unmotivated for an 8am or a 9am start time. If a teenager needs 10hrs a sleep a day to be healthy, and kids don't go to bed until late night, the day should start later.

Kids, especially teenagers in high school, would really benefit from a 10am to 5pm school day.

Not enough sleep hurts many kids. Parents often have no idea that their kids need more sleep, too much adrenalin makes them think they're not tired at all. In reality, all that adrenalin is their bodies' way of helping them stay awake. But it's terrible for learning.

Diet plays a big role too, both to help/hinder learning, and sleep.

This is why I don't think schools are serious about teaching...they're more concerned w/ getting more money for the latest newfangled program. If they were concerned, they'd encourage parents to improve these two areas...with the added benefit for parents that they have more peaceful homes.

I know parents that have their kids on ADD medicine (aka speed) because they don't focus well during the day, and at the same time the parents say their kids can't go to sleep without the TV on or some such thing ... I know these kids (8-10 yrs. old) stay up to 9:00+ on a regular basis. Just when and how to tell other parents how to raise their kids is a struggle.

It is rather idealistic, but it is far more reasonable and cost effective than the programs they do push.

And we've seen schools contribute greatly to the decline of our society over the course of 2-3 generations. Who knows, if they pushed some sensible ideas, they may have a positive effect over the next 2-3 generations.

Part of the problem is that the government uses schools as a form of daycare. They have schools feed them breakfast and lunch as well as house them in something of an orderly fashion. Now, Obama is pushing for the daycare to extend into the evening and weekends. Just when are parents supposed to do their jobs.
09-29-2009 08:30 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #39
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-29-2009 08:30 AM)Crebman Wrote:  Part of the problem is that the government uses schools as a form of daycare. They have schools feed them breakfast and lunch as well as house them in something of an orderly fashion. Now, Obama is pushing for the daycare to extend into the evening and weekends. Just when are parents supposed to do their jobs.

An excellent question. But it's the definition of "jobs" that's the sticking point.

The gov't views people as cogs to generate tax revenue. They want people working outside of the home as much as possible. That's their job, as far as the gov't is concerned. They want kids in gov't day care, b/c that will be an obvious driver for why the gov't needs more.*

Plus the kids get indoctrinated into group-think. Just try to be an individual as a teen. Try to discuss why immoral laws shouldn't be followed ("But those are the rules!").

Public schools can do a lot of good, but they can do a lot of harm too. The path they're on leans toward the latter.

*Think of what 3 hours will add in costs. First, that stretches the day way past 8 hours. So you aren't just talking about longer hours, you're talking about hiring an entire new shift. That's more state employees, requiring salary, benefits, retirement, and then additional staff to handle all those logistics.

You're also talking about taking kids thru dinner. That's an entire meal that will have to be coordinated.

There's already a shortage of school nurses, and this will increase demand.

Moroever, the costs aren't just in dollars. This will affect household chores, church attendance, religious/familial/cultural celebrations, exercise/health, etc. All aspects of life will become even further shaped and molded by gov't regulation.
09-29-2009 09:25 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #40
RE: I can't let this guy be a superintendent
(09-29-2009 08:30 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(09-29-2009 07:22 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 02:41 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 01:34 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-28-2009 12:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Nah, longer hours won't work. And more days will just mean more glassed over eyes during US History in June...... I know this because my wife taught at a year round public school in Illinois.

If you want to see real change, my suggestion is to have the day start later. There is a ton of real science showing these kids are tired and unmotivated for an 8am or a 9am start time. If a teenager needs 10hrs a sleep a day to be healthy, and kids don't go to bed until late night, the day should start later.

Kids, especially teenagers in high school, would really benefit from a 10am to 5pm school day.

Not enough sleep hurts many kids. Parents often have no idea that their kids need more sleep, too much adrenalin makes them think they're not tired at all. In reality, all that adrenalin is their bodies' way of helping them stay awake. But it's terrible for learning.

Diet plays a big role too, both to help/hinder learning, and sleep.

This is why I don't think schools are serious about teaching...they're more concerned w/ getting more money for the latest newfangled program. If they were concerned, they'd encourage parents to improve these two areas...with the added benefit for parents that they have more peaceful homes.

I know parents that have their kids on ADD medicine (aka speed) because they don't focus well during the day, and at the same time the parents say their kids can't go to sleep without the TV on or some such thing ... I know these kids (8-10 yrs. old) stay up to 9:00+ on a regular basis. Just when and how to tell other parents how to raise their kids is a struggle.

It is rather idealistic, but it is far more reasonable and cost effective than the programs they do push.

And we've seen schools contribute greatly to the decline of our society over the course of 2-3 generations. Who knows, if they pushed some sensible ideas, they may have a positive effect over the next 2-3 generations.

Part of the problem is that the government uses schools as a form of daycare. They have schools feed them breakfast and lunch as well as house them in something of an orderly fashion. Now, Obama is pushing for the daycare to extend into the evening and weekends. Just when are parents supposed to do their jobs.

When they get the parents to join them in joyous "worship of the state"... all wearing patriotic attire and saluting a cloth on a pole.05-stirthepot
09-29-2009 09:07 PM
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