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An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
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DrTorch Offline
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An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
Quote:Students warned to prove Texas residence or leave
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090922/ap_o...50c3dhcm4-

And people are outraged. 03-hissyfit

We need to cheer people who are doing the right thing.
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2009 08:59 AM by DrTorch.)
09-22-2009 08:59 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
While I agree with the stance...I am sorry for the children caught in the middle of this. Mexico really does suck. It is a damn shame they cant educate their children.
09-22-2009 09:09 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 09:09 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  While I agree with the stance...I am sorry for the children caught in the middle of this. Mexico really does suck. It is a damn shame they cant educate their children.

I'm sure they could. Especially in comparison w/ the failing US public system.

I'm amazed at what can be accomplished in homeschooling w/ relatively few resources. Although that is a knock on me. There are many brilliant minds that flourished coming from a modest, agrarian upbringing. This is not impossible, nor even improbable.

If parents take education seriously, and add to that a proven, systematic approach that is tailored to favor their children's strengths...the results are predicatble, reliable success.

It is the modern US educator, combined with a bureaucratic, low-achieving system, that mucks things up. Mexican schools make it worse b/c they strive to replicate the failed educational system, w/o the luxury of a few decent tools that allow some modest successes to occur.

If the Mexicans would grow some cojones (joke intended) and take some inititative; they'd soon find a generation of young mexicans leading the region to success.
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2009 09:33 AM by DrTorch.)
09-22-2009 09:31 AM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #4
RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 09:31 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-22-2009 09:09 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  While I agree with the stance...I am sorry for the children caught in the middle of this. Mexico really does suck. It is a damn shame they cant educate their children.

I'm sure they could. Especially in comparison w/ the failing US public system.

I'm amazed at what can be accomplished in homeschooling w/ relatively few resources. Although that is a knock on me. There are many brilliant minds that flourished coming from a modest, agrarian upbringing. This is not impossible, nor even improbable.

If parents take education seriously, and add to that a proven, systematic approach that is tailored to favor their children's strengths...the results are predicatble, reliable success.

It is the modern US educator, combined with a bureaucratic, low-achieving system, that mucks things up. Mexican schools make it worse b/c they strive to replicate the failed educational system, w/o the luxury of a few decent tools that allow some modest successes to occur.

If the Mexicans would grow some cojones (joke intended) and take some inititative; they'd soon find a generation of young mexicans leading the region to success.

Torch, you are full of crap when you characterize the entire US system of education as failing. It fails in alot of places, but it also succeeds in a lot of places. Public schools are a product of the communities they serve. Generally, communities that place a high value on education have public schools that turn out educated students and communities that are screwed up and a mess have schools that are reflective of that.

Obviously, a child that is homeschooled by a parent that is equipped to do so has a "teacher" that is most concerned with that child and also gets far more individualized instruction that children in a private or public school. For those families that can and are able to homeschool - bravo.

However, how do you think the child of a drug addict would fare with homeschooling - or how about if the parent has an 80 I.Q. Do you think a moron adult will do a bang up job homeschooling?

Fact is most public schools in large cities fail because too high a percentage of adults in that city DON"T CARE about education. They didn't educate themselves and aren't going to see that their children are educated. Hell, in inner city schools, teachers can't get parents to show up for progress report time or actively participate in a childs schooling.
09-22-2009 11:09 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 11:09 AM)Crebman Wrote:  Torch, you are full of crap when you characterize the entire US system of education as failing. It fails in alot of places, but it also succeeds in a lot of places. Public schools are a product of the communities they serve. Generally, communities that place a high value on education have public schools that turn out educated students and communities that are screwed up and a mess have schools that are reflective of that.

I disagree. I had a child in the public schools of Fairfax County. By all measures FC is a community that "values" education.

Guess what? The school sucked. The teachers sucked. THe administrators sucked.

And my taxes were high.

Oh, I'm sure on a relative scale those schools are better than others. Compared to DC public schools, or even most suburban MD schools, the FC schools were better. But that doesn't mean "good".

Many parents recognized these issues and responded in a variety of ways:
Enrolling their kids in private schools
Enrolling their kids at Sylvan or Huntington education centers
Homeschooling

So how exactly does that demonstrate successful public schools?


Quote:However, how do you think the child of a drug addict would fare with homeschooling - or how about if the parent has an 80 I.Q. Do you think a moron adult will do a bang up job homeschooling?

I'm unsure what to do with these red herrings. I don't even understand the question. However, if the public schools are supposed to be evaluated based on their effectiveness of putting people w/ an 80 IQ into the public, then I'd say that there are better ways of doing that too!

And if that's the standard, whose logic is it to put students in an environment that's designed for the lowest 20%?

Quote:Fact is most public schools in large cities fail because too high a percentage of adults in that city DON"T CARE about education.

1. I didn't bring up large cities specifically.

2. Where's the proof that they don't "care"?

3.
[Image: 200909_blog_coulson1-500x419.jpg]
09-22-2009 11:33 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #6
RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
That chart there you like. Change the left y axis to the parameters of 10,000 dollars for each line. The right Y - axis start at 275 and go in increments of 5. Just like statistics graphs can be manipulated to tell whatever story you like.
09-22-2009 12:02 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:02 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That chart there you like. Change the left y axis to the parameters of 10,000 dollars for each line. The right Y - axis start at 275 and go in increments of 5. Just like statistics graphs can be manipulated to tell whatever story you like.

The drama from the graph doesn't change the numbers. In constant dollars, spending has nearly doubled, and the metrics for academic performance are scarcely unchanged.

If you have data to suggest this isn't true, I'm open. However, pretending that this is exaggerated b/c of the way the graph is presented is academically dishonest.
09-22-2009 12:13 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #8
RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
Found this researching NEAP scores found it interesting.

Would Foreign Students Score Proficient on NAEP?
Subject: K-12 Testing
Status: Archived
Issue: Jul 2007
It's "common knowledge" that U.S. students fare poorly when compared with students the world over. So how would foreign students do if they had to meet NAEP proficiency benchmarks by 2014? Not too well, it turns out.
Former National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) acting director Gary Phillips developed estimates using NAEP scores to measure how U.S. students compare in mathematics and science with their foreign counterparts on the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS).

Phillips' study finds that of 45 countries in TIMSS, only six have a majority of students who would score proficient on NAEP's 8th-grade math test Even the top-ranked nation, Singapore, is far from the NCLB goal of 100% proficiency based on NAEP levels, with 27% of its students scoring below proficient.

Only two countries in the world, Singapore and Taiwan, have a slight majority of students scoring proficient in science, 51%. The U.S. is a scant four points behind high-flying Finland, with 30% proficient compared to Finland's 34%.

Making the NAEP proficient level the goal for all students will only guarantee that even more schools will fail, while the focus on test scores will continue to undermine the quality of education and inhibit necessary improvements.
09-22-2009 12:16 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
I actually was looking for the top score on a NEAP test and they don't release the data. How much money would it take to raise a number in the many millions 5 percentage points? We don't know the parameters. That graph could be VERY misleading. It looks to me when funding skyrocketed in 82 you definetly have a bump of at least 25 points. Is that good? To me yes, but the author of the graph doesn't want to tell that story. Did you think the number would double too? Lets say a kid spent 75 bucks on computer software to prep for the ACT. He gets a 18. The next time around he spends 1000 dollars on a private tutor. Would you expect his score to be ten times that. NO!!!! The highest he can score is a 36. If the kid scores a 25 it was money well spent.
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2009 12:27 PM by Machiavelli.)
09-22-2009 12:25 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
Just looked at the graph again. 290 to 315 I'm thinkin. That's huge! when your talking 100's of millions of kids. GREAT JOB!!! public education!!!!!!
09-22-2009 12:30 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:30 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just looked at the graph again. 290 to 315 I'm thinkin. That's huge! when your talking 100's of millions of kids. GREAT JOB!!! public education!!!!!!

Then you and I have different definitions of success and "great job". Which would be fine, except it's MY money that's being taken.

BTW, looks like reading scores dropped.
09-22-2009 12:36 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
I thought the EXACT same thing. I'd bet it has alot to do with English as the 2nd langauge influx since 1980. I really wish we could find the top score on the NEAP. If it's 400 then I really have an argument, but what if the top score is a 1000? We don't know the parameters that's why I think it's misleading or could be.
09-22-2009 12:41 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
From your article though. This made me slap my head.

"Immigration status isn't an issue in these cases. A decades-old Supreme Court ruling prevents school officials from even asking about citizenship."

Talk about weakening a nation.
09-22-2009 12:44 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:16 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Found this researching NEAP scores found it interesting.

Would Foreign Students Score Proficient on NAEP?
Subject: K-12 Testing
Status: Archived
Issue: Jul 2007
It's "common knowledge" that U.S. students fare poorly when compared with students the world over. So how would foreign students do if they had to meet NAEP proficiency benchmarks by 2014? Not too well, it turns out.
Former National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) acting director Gary Phillips developed estimates using NAEP scores to measure how U.S. students compare in mathematics and science with their foreign counterparts on the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS).

Phillips' study finds that of 45 countries in TIMSS, only six have a majority of students who would score proficient on NAEP's 8th-grade math test Even the top-ranked nation, Singapore, is far from the NCLB goal of 100% proficiency based on NAEP levels, with 27% of its students scoring below proficient.

Only two countries in the world, Singapore and Taiwan, have a slight majority of students scoring proficient in science, 51%. The U.S. is a scant four points behind high-flying Finland, with 30% proficient compared to Finland's 34%.

Making the NAEP proficient level the goal for all students will only guarantee that even more schools will fail, while the focus on test scores will continue to undermine the quality of education and inhibit necessary improvements.

Hilarious. First, you have lots of assumptions and approximations being made. This guy tries to correlate TIMSS scores w/ NAEP scores, with no justification for his conclusions.

Second, he praises the US for coming in 4th, in one category despite being well below the leaders. "Scant" difference from 30% to 34% is GREATER than a 10% difference. Maybe "scant" ought to be a vocabulary word for Mr. Phillips.

Third, there is no mention of the spending for these other countries, do they spend more or less than the US?

I am more than happy to see a review of the NAEP and expectations. However, there needs to be some metric imposed. Professional educators went a long time avoiding scrutiny, and the performance of students plummetted. I don't see many alternatives being proposed, I do see a lot of complaining about the ones that exist...and much of if fallacious. If a teacher can't construct a logical argument, then they're in need of some serious education themselves.


To me, all this article does is show that professional educators are busy coming up w/ excuses instead of real improvements. They refuse to acknowledge their past failures, and instead use those to lobby incessantly for more money, and less oversight.
09-22-2009 12:45 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:44 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  From your article though. This made me slap my head.

"Immigration status isn't an issue in these cases. A decades-old Supreme Court ruling prevents school officials from even asking about citizenship."

Talk about weakening a nation.

Agreed. You can't even ask an individual if they're a citizen during a job interview. How is that discrimination? Especially w/ all the bickering that employers are the ones that keep illegal immigration thriving.
09-22-2009 12:46 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
Then you and I have different definitions of success and "great job". Which would be fine, except it's MY money that's being taken.


Just out of curiousity. What would be your definition of success here? What would make Torch say, "DAMN FINE JOB, GUYS" Go get a banna split compliments of the Torcher! I want you to think of the number of kid's being tested too.
09-22-2009 12:48 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:41 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I thought the EXACT same thing. I'd bet it has alot to do with English as the 2nd langauge influx since 1980. I really wish we could find the top score on the NEAP. If it's 400 then I really have an argument, but what if the top score is a 1000? We don't know the parameters that's why I think it's misleading or could be.

I see the point you're trying to make here. I apologize for dismissing it earlier.
09-22-2009 12:48 PM
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RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
.

I "Home Schooled" and am so glad I did.

Let us just simply face it, the Public School System, unless in a real White Part of the Nation or City and is a Super School or a Magnet School, does not work and can not work .... it is a Government Enterprise and is DESTINED TO FAILURE just from the Bureaucracy Alone.

Very few present day Standard Public Schools make Status Quo much less bring it in over the top.

And this is how we want out HEALTH CARE ?????? 01-wingedeagle 01-wingedeagle 01-wingedeagle

The "Winds are just out of the Sails" people.

.
09-22-2009 01:30 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #19
RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:48 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-22-2009 12:41 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I thought the EXACT same thing. I'd bet it has alot to do with English as the 2nd langauge influx since 1980. I really wish we could find the top score on the NEAP. If it's 400 then I really have an argument, but what if the top score is a 1000? We don't know the parameters that's why I think it's misleading or could be.

I see the point you're trying to make here. I apologize for dismissing it earlier.

Regardless...This graph clearly shows that throwing money at the problem has had minimal impact on raising test scores. I blame it more on the "method" of teaching than anything else. My mother taught 2nd grade for over 30 years...She maintains that "whole language" and math skills taught without "memorization" are to blame. In a nutshell...We tried to fix time proven methods of teaching that were NOT broken.

If I had my way...Reading,writing and math would be the ONLY things taught through the 5th or 6th grade. The rest comes easy once the basic skills are mastered.

Without the basics being mastered...a child can not excel at the higher grades and the teachers spend half their time trying to "catch the kids up".
09-22-2009 01:32 PM
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Post: #20
RE: An ounce of immigration common sense in TX
(09-22-2009 12:46 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-22-2009 12:44 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  From your article though. This made me slap my head.

"Immigration status isn't an issue in these cases. A decades-old Supreme Court ruling prevents school officials from even asking about citizenship."

Talk about weakening a nation.

Agreed. You can't even ask an individual if they're a citizen during a job interview. How is that discrimination? Especially w/ all the bickering that employers are the ones that keep illegal immigration thriving.

There is no verification even when a person registers to vote, for Christ's sake. That's why it does not matter. And since people are not demanding that it matter, our system will stay broken and our elections can be stolen.
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2009 01:58 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
09-22-2009 01:56 PM
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