Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
Author Message
THE NC Herd Fan Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 16,170
Joined: Oct 2003
Reputation: 521
I Root For: Marshall
Location: Charlotte
Post: #1
Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
Quote:Obama told Diane Sawyer in June that government should “study and figure out what works and what doesn’t. And let’s encourage doctors and patients to get what works. Let’s discourage what doesn’t.”

Sawyer then asked him: “Will it just be encouragement? Or will there be a board making Solomonic decisions?”

Obama replied, “What I’ve suggested is—is that we have a—a commission that helps—made up of doctors, made up of experts, that helps set best—best practices.”

When Sawyer pressed him to say whether those practices would be enforced by law, he evaded the question.

This reeks of the Big Brother nightmare of oppressive government that the shrewd propagandists on the right are always blathering on about. Except that this time, they could not be more right.

This guy is one who supports healthcare reform but thinks Obama is lying.

Quote:

Where is Obama coming from? Why is such an apparently humane man not more strongly condemning a utilitarian initiative straight out of Victorian England? A good part of the explanation has to do with the University of Chicago Law School milieu that Obama comes out of. By far, the most influential figure in that world is Judge Richard Posner, who teaches law at Chicago and publishes streams of pompous, robotically written books that are much praised and little read.

Judge Posner is both an enthusiastic advocate of euthanasia and an energetic eugenicist. He once wrote of Oliver Wendell Holmes’ ideas about eugenics—Holmes believed that a just society “prevents continuance of the unfit”—that “we may yet find [Holmes’] enthusiasms prescient rather than depraved.”

Cass Sunstein, who is Obama’s nominee for regulatory czar, is a disciple of Posner and believes in what Time magazine describes as “the statistical practice of taking into account years of life expectancy when evaluating a regulation.” In other words, Sunstein believes that the lives of younger people have a greater value than those of the elderly. This, obviously, would have a radical bearing on end-of-life considerations.

eugenics - the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits.

I seem to recall a world leader in the last century around the 1940's that had advisors that supported eugenics.

Obama's Euthanasia Mistake
(This post was last modified: 08-11-2009 07:20 PM by THE NC Herd Fan.)
08-11-2009 07:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


smn1256 Offline
I miss Tripster
*

Posts: 28,878
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 337
I Root For: Lower taxes
Location: North Mexico
Post: #2
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-11-2009 07:02 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  eugenics - the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits.

Does this go as far to include Welfare moms, prisoners, convicted criminals, homosexuals, mentally ill people, homeless people, the chronically unemployed, drug addicts, illegal aliens, etc? A case can be made for the sterilization of each of them.
08-11-2009 08:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tripster Offline
Most Dangerous Man on a Keyboard
*

Posts: 3,140
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 16
I Root For: The Best Only
Location: Where the Action is
Post: #3
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
.

"Obama's Euthanasia Mistake" ......

I don't believe it was a Mistake for a Second .... I believe he was dying to just blurt it out and tell Diane Sawyer to shove that mic up the old Fisting Hole.

He WANTS to say it and he is Foaming At The Mouth to say it .... but he knows that right now, if he starts talking about Martial Law and Wanton Murder of the Elderly and the Infirmed no matter what their ages are, he is sunk regardless if he starts sh'tting Gold Bricks.

He has the Populace on the edge of Bloody and Violent Civil Unrest like no other POTUS in my Lifetime, and I honestly don't know if he is doing this intentionally so he can try to put Troops on the Streets, or if his Vulgar Plans are getting beaten and battered before he can implement them.

But he is SO SWEET and he is SUCH A GOOD SPEAKER and STUFF !!!!!!! (psssst 03-shhhh and he is Black too you know ????)

.
08-11-2009 08:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Paul M Offline
American-American
*

Posts: 21,196
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 649
I Root For: OU
Location: Next to Boomer
Post: #4
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-11-2009 08:22 PM)Tripster Wrote:  (psssst 03-shhhh and he is Black too you know ????)

But, that's all that matters. Ask Garafabithedbybuffalos.
08-11-2009 09:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RobertN Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 35,485
Joined: Jan 2003
Reputation: 95
I Root For: THE NIU Huskies
Location: Wayne's World
Post: #5
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-11-2009 08:22 PM)Tripster Wrote:  .

"Obama's Euthanasia Mistake" ......

I don't believe it was a Mistake for a Second .... I believe he was dying to just blurt it out and tell Diane Sawyer to shove that mic up the old Fisting Hole.

He WANTS to say it and he is Foaming At The Mouth to say it .... but he knows that right now, if he starts talking about Martial Law and Wanton Murder of the Elderly and the Infirmed no matter what their ages are, he is sunk regardless if he starts sh'tting Gold Bricks.

He has the Populace on the edge of Bloody and Violent Civil Unrest like no other POTUS in my Lifetime, and I honestly don't know if he is doing this intentionally so he can try to put Troops on the Streets, or if his Vulgar Plans are getting beaten and battered before he can implement them.

But he is SO SWEET and he is SUCH A GOOD SPEAKER and STUFF !!!!!!! (psssst 03-shhhh and he is Black too you know ????)

.
01-wingedeagle
08-12-2009 01:37 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Tripster Offline
Most Dangerous Man on a Keyboard
*

Posts: 3,140
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 16
I Root For: The Best Only
Location: Where the Action is
Post: #6
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-12-2009 01:37 AM)RobertN Wrote:  
(08-11-2009 08:22 PM)Tripster Wrote:  .

"Obama's Euthanasia Mistake" ......

I don't believe it was a Mistake for a Second .... I believe he was dying to just blurt it out and tell Diane Sawyer to shove that mic up the old Fisting Hole.

He WANTS to say it and he is Foaming At The Mouth to say it .... but he knows that right now, if he starts talking about Martial Law and Wanton Murder of the Elderly and the Infirmed no matter what their ages are, he is sunk regardless if he starts sh'tting Gold Bricks.

He has the Populace on the edge of Bloody and Violent Civil Unrest like no other POTUS in my Lifetime, and I honestly don't know if he is doing this intentionally so he can try to put Troops on the Streets, or if his Vulgar Plans are getting beaten and battered before he can implement them.

But he is SO SWEET and he is SUCH A GOOD SPEAKER and STUFF !!!!!!! (psssst 03-shhhh and he is Black too you know ????)

.
01-wingedeagle

Why do YOU bother even wasting time to post if that is all you can muster ?????

Are you mesmerized too learn that Obama is Black or something ????

You ***** people out for not "Posting Links" about Bull Sh't and all you can do with all that Talent and Intelligence is a single " 01-wingedeagle ".

You are not just a Tard, but you are a Super-Duper New and Improved Tard in the Economy Size.

Catch ya lata ....

.
08-12-2009 10:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RobertN Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 35,485
Joined: Jan 2003
Reputation: 95
I Root For: THE NIU Huskies
Location: Wayne's World
Post: #7
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-12-2009 10:42 AM)Tripster Wrote:  
(08-12-2009 01:37 AM)RobertN Wrote:  
(08-11-2009 08:22 PM)Tripster Wrote:  .

"Obama's Euthanasia Mistake" ......

I don't believe it was a Mistake for a Second .... I believe he was dying to just blurt it out and tell Diane Sawyer to shove that mic up the old Fisting Hole.

He WANTS to say it and he is Foaming At The Mouth to say it .... but he knows that right now, if he starts talking about Martial Law and Wanton Murder of the Elderly and the Infirmed no matter what their ages are, he is sunk regardless if he starts sh'tting Gold Bricks.

He has the Populace on the edge of Bloody and Violent Civil Unrest like no other POTUS in my Lifetime, and I honestly don't know if he is doing this intentionally so he can try to put Troops on the Streets, or if his Vulgar Plans are getting beaten and battered before he can implement them.

But he is SO SWEET and he is SUCH A GOOD SPEAKER and STUFF !!!!!!! (psssst 03-shhhh and he is Black too you know ????)

.
01-wingedeagle

Why do YOU bother even wasting time to post if that is all you can muster ?????

Are you mesmerized too learn that Obama is Black or something ????

You ***** people out for not "Posting Links" about Bull Sh't and all you can do with all that Talent and Intelligence is a single " 01-wingedeagle ".

You are not just a Tard, but you are a Super-Duper New and Improved Tard in the Economy Size.

Catch ya lata ....

.
What more needed to be said? I think 01-wingedeagle says it all.
08-12-2009 12:51 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
uhmump95 Offline
Race Pimp
*

Posts: 5,340
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 50
I Root For: all my hoes!
Location:

Crappies
Post: #8
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
So is this where all the crap about Obama killing the elderly and retarded kids came from? I was trying to have conversation with some coworkers and they spouted that crap and I was shocked.

As for unrest to tell you the truth the only time I see it is at the town hall meeting ....
08-12-2009 01:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Machiavelli Offline
Back to Reality. Oh there goes Gravity

Posts: 25,357
Joined: Apr 2006
I Root For: BGSU
Location:
Post: #9
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
It's effective though. Scare the elderly. Put outlandish ideas like Death Panels. What was really effective imo is requiring congress to be in the same program. When that was voted down. Near Death by a thousand lashes. You know something is going to pass but it will be very scaled down. Score one for Big Pharma, Insurance corporations, and the GOP.
08-12-2009 01:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,853
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3214
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #10
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
The questions about health care that I would like to have answered. Because one of the stock ways to answer uncomfortable questions seems to have become to point out that there is no one bill at this point, and they have differing provisions, wherever I ask about the bill, it would be clear that the respondent can answer based upon any of the different versions, even cherry-picking the version that provides the most reassuring answer, even if that version is clearly problematical on some other issue. To state it another way, I am seeking to preclude the evasive answer, "oh, we don't have one bill at this point, so we can't give a specific citation."

1. Obama has repeatedly said, "If you like your health insurance and your doctor, you can keep them." What that would suggest, but what he has been very careful not to say, is, "You will be free to choose your doctor and your health insurance." When I read the bill, it strikes me that you can be locked into your current plan, with no choice but to go onto the prescribed alternative plan (government, co-op, whatever it ends up being). Will I, or my employer, be free to choose from competing private insurance plans, and if so, where does it say that in any of the draft bills?
2. Obama has repeatedly said that this plan will not add a dime to the deficit, without identifying any additional funding. The CBO has said that it without offsetting funding, it will add $1 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years. Those statements cannot both be true. Which one is the lie? If the answer is that neither one is a lie because Obama plans to increase taxes so that no deficit result, exactly which taxes are going to be increased, and how much, to accomplish this?
3. Obama has repeatedly denied that this is a government takeover of health care, and the proposed bills do not seem to dictate that specifically. But there are a number of things that suggest movement a fair piece down the road toward eventual government takeover of health care. And Obama himself has stated a preference for single-payer health care with a recognition that there would need to be a transition process. Given that, if this is NOT a step down the road toward a single-payer government health care system, then why does Obama support it?
4. The various bills create a number of new agencies (with some variation from bill to bill). These would seem to have little place in a system where the objective is to remain a private-insurance system but to reduce costs by cutting administrative overhead. Introducing this many new agencies into the system would appear to be one way to guarantee that overhead will increase, if nothing else because the costs of running the agencies themselves will add to overhead. One role that I can see for those agencies is that they would be very helpful to have in place to ease the transition to a government-run single-payer system, but aside from that I don't really see what they will accomplish except to spend more money on what is already an overpriced activity. What will these agencies accomplish that will benefit a private health care system, and what assurances do we have in the bill that these agencies won't be used to facilitate the transition to a government-run single-payer system?
5. Obama has stated that his "reforms" will not lead to euthanizing the elderly and disabled. However, other countries that have gone down the road to single-payer systems have encountered difficulty rationing scarce medical resources. In some cases (like the UK NHS) they have resorted to excluding certain groups from health care because of age or disability. That is a legitimate fear in large part because the proposed Council for Comparative Effectiveness very closely resembles the kinds of organizations that have been used to develop standards for rationing and effectively euthanizing in those systems. The legitimacy of that fear is heightened because of the reasonable expectation that Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who has advocated such rationing schemes in print, is quite likely to be a member of such a council, and at the very least instrumental in its direction. What assurances do we have that the Council for Comparative Effectiveness (or any other agency) will not become a vehicle for deciding that certain groups must be denied health care in order for other groups to receive it? And what options will people in denied groups have to obtain the denied health care on their own nickel? Where in the bill are these protections found?

I would ask one more question if given the chance: Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel with health care instead of taking an existing model that has been successful and adapting it? Since the French model is generaly regarded as the gold standard, why are we not simply taking it and adapting it?
08-12-2009 03:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TMcCarty Offline
Maximus Decimus Meridius
*

Posts: 12,608
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 67
I Root For: UAB
Location:

Folding@NCAAbbs
Post: #11
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
Owl, could you summarize the French plan in a paragraph? I'm not familiar with it.

If I had my way, Health Insurance would be more like other forms of insurance. Use your own wallet for the minor things: that yearly check up, your generic blood pressure meds ($10 for a 90-day supply ain't bad!), some basic lab work, etc. Then use your insurance if something major arises: pregnancy, surgery, cancer, major chronic illness (think insulin-dependent diabetes, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis), etc. This would also help to lower overhead. Your average internist or pediatrician no longer needs to have employees dedicated solely to dealing with insurance companies. Insurance companies themselves would be able to downsize, as the sheer volume of claims would drop precipitously. Massive amounts of paperwork would be able to just go away.

It boggles the mind that your average American sees nothing wrong with dropping $30 for an oil change 4 times a year but is taken aback by a $30 co-pay for their annual physical. People care more about their stuff than their own health.
08-12-2009 04:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,853
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3214
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #12
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
Basically, it's a three tier system:
1. The government provides a catastrophic umbrella for everyone, removing a major concern; other than this, it's pretty much a free market system
2. There is a universal private insurance health care for everyone, at a level of quality comparable to the VA or a bad HMO here, funded out of social security but the only government role is to collect the money and pay it to the insurance consortium that runs the program,
3. Everyone is free to supplement with private insurance in whatever way they choose, and this leads to a wide variety of private insurance plans (interestingly, 90+% of the French have private insurance, far more than here in the US)

Effectively, they set up two side-by-side systems, a "free' system and a "pay" system. You get tetanus shots and emergency care on the "free" system. You get elective surgery on the "pay" system. It's really more of a free-market system than what we have now. It is neither a single-payer nor a single-provider system.

Here are a few articles that are fairly short and give different perspectives.

http://www.examiner.com/x-11804-Health-C...-universal

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4647483&page=1

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/con...042070.htm

The biggest criticism is cost. They are going crazy over how much their system costs. And it's half what ours costs on a per capita basis.

One other thing. Nothing is "free". Even in the "free" system there are some pretty hefty co-pays, although they can be waived or refunded for the poor.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2009 05:17 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-12-2009 05:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
SumOfAllFears Offline
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
*

Posts: 18,213
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 58
I Root For: America
Location:
Post: #13
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
Owl, good summary,

Our leaders want us to take ObamaCare on faith. But after passing the stimulus bill without even reading it and seeing the money frivolous spent with banks and insurance shoring up their book for investors instead of creating the liquidity that was supposed to happen. We remember too vividly, Paulson after getting control over $500+ billion taxpayer money bailed out Leman Brothers his old employer. We have lost faith and trust. Today, Obama says AARP endorses his plan, If it was not a good plan for seniors why would they endorse it? AARP came out and said they did not endorser it. I personally seen the smoke and mirrors of the Obama Administration. Its a joke and does not deserve our faith, trust or support.
08-12-2009 05:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


Paul M Offline
American-American
*

Posts: 21,196
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 649
I Root For: OU
Location: Next to Boomer
Post: #14
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
AARP does support it. They have just realized that they are on opposite sides from there members and are publicly trying to appear to not.

But public statements matter. Obamas says they support it, they say they don't.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2009 08:31 PM by Paul M.)
08-12-2009 08:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
nomad2u2001 Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,356
Joined: Nov 2006
Reputation: 450
I Root For: ECU
Location: NC
Post: #15
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
Can someone shoot me some H.R./S.R #s for the bills. There are a crap load on govtrack.
08-13-2009 09:57 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TheDancinMonarch Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,643
Joined: Jun 2009
Reputation: 157
I Root For: Old Dominion
Location: Norfolk, VA
Post: #16
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-13-2009 09:57 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Can someone shoot me some H.R./S.R #s for the bills. There are a crap load on govtrack.

House is HR 3200
08-13-2009 10:27 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Crebman Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,407
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation: 552
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #17
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-12-2009 01:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's effective though. Scare the elderly. Put outlandish ideas like Death Panels. What was really effective imo is requiring congress to be in the same program. When that was voted down. Near Death by a thousand lashes. You know something is going to pass but it will be very scaled down. Score one for Big Pharma, Insurance corporations, and the GOP.

Mach, you don't think our representatives and other government folks should be on the same plan as they are advocating we all should be forced into joining? To me, it is very telling that our representatives don't want to be in the new "program", don't you.
08-13-2009 10:36 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Advertisement


SumOfAllFears Offline
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
*

Posts: 18,213
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 58
I Root For: America
Location:
Post: #18
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-13-2009 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(08-12-2009 01:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's effective though. Scare the elderly. Put outlandish ideas like Death Panels. What was really effective imo is requiring congress to be in the same program. When that was voted down. Near Death by a thousand lashes. You know something is going to pass but it will be very scaled down. Score one for Big Pharma, Insurance corporations, and the GOP.

Mach, you don't think our representatives and other government folks should be on the same plan as they are advocating we all should be forced into joining? To me, it is very telling that our representatives don't want to be in the new "program", don't you.

I want to be on their plan. They did say I could choose.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2009 10:46 AM by SumOfAllFears.)
08-13-2009 10:46 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Paul M Offline
American-American
*

Posts: 21,196
Joined: May 2008
Reputation: 649
I Root For: OU
Location: Next to Boomer
Post: #19
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-13-2009 10:46 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(08-13-2009 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(08-12-2009 01:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's effective though. Scare the elderly. Put outlandish ideas like Death Panels. What was really effective imo is requiring congress to be in the same program. When that was voted down. Near Death by a thousand lashes. You know something is going to pass but it will be very scaled down. Score one for Big Pharma, Insurance corporations, and the GOP.

Mach, you don't think our representatives and other government folks should be on the same plan as they are advocating we all should be forced into joining? To me, it is very telling that our representatives don't want to be in the new "program", don't you.

I want to be on their plan. They did say I could choose.

They lie.
08-13-2009 09:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
smn1256 Offline
I miss Tripster
*

Posts: 28,878
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 337
I Root For: Lower taxes
Location: North Mexico
Post: #20
RE: Liberal's view of Obamacare Mistake
(08-13-2009 09:26 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(08-13-2009 10:46 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(08-13-2009 10:36 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(08-12-2009 01:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's effective though. Scare the elderly. Put outlandish ideas like Death Panels. What was really effective imo is requiring congress to be in the same program. When that was voted down. Near Death by a thousand lashes. You know something is going to pass but it will be very scaled down. Score one for Big Pharma, Insurance corporations, and the GOP.

Mach, you don't think our representatives and other government folks should be on the same plan as they are advocating we all should be forced into joining? To me, it is very telling that our representatives don't want to be in the new "program", don't you.

I want to be on their plan. They did say I could choose.

They lie.

No they don't. But the CIA does.
08-13-2009 09:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.