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Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
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Machiavelli Offline
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Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
and went back to a for profit American style system? I'm not aware of any.
07-20-2009 04:24 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
And the point is...

We know the USSR members abandoned their socialism. Don't know what their current health care system is, but their rejection of socialism should be a lesson.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2009 04:27 PM by DrTorch.)
07-20-2009 04:26 PM
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BlazerFan11 Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
When people start getting things for "free", it's very hard to get them to go back to a system where they have to pay for it (directly).
07-20-2009 04:32 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
Especially since you become free even encouraged, to die as early as possible, except of course for our upper crust elitist leaders.
07-20-2009 04:35 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
Can anyone tell me...

Remember those riots in France c. 2006? Those were largely due to the large population of muslim immigrants who were unemployed (something like 60% unemployment) and living in slums.

Does that part of the population get, or perhaps a better question is do they use, the socialized health care?

I'm just wondering since so much of their stagnant economy is based on these consumers...a growing population of poorer and poorer people consuming just enough to keep the old guard emloyed at 35 hrs/week, 6-week summer vaction, and their nationalized benefits. So I'm wondering if they are silent contributors to this system that pretends it's so great, or if it's able to sustain itself despite the demands.

The high unemployment among immigrants was not widely known outside of France prior to the riots, and is still largely ignored. I am curious if their health care system is yet another human rights abuse that is ignored all while trying to extol the virtues of socialized medicine.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2009 04:40 PM by DrTorch.)
07-20-2009 04:39 PM
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-20-2009 04:24 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  and went back to a for profit American style system? I'm not aware of any.

People in groups will accept mediocrity when all the people next to them are living in the same conditions (look at ghettos and the impact of welfare). It's why dictators can easily come into power. It's how serfs rarely revolted and any revolt could easily be put down by offerings of food or a little bit of violence.

Is that how you want to live, Mach? Just sit there and eat cake while you work at the behest of an oligarchy who won't even accept the same living conditions that you must? Not me. I'll die free on my feet rather than serve on my knees.
07-20-2009 04:53 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
Two points:

1. The failure of anyone to go back to a free market system would not necessarily signify satisfaction with socialized medicine. Governments crave power, and controllling health care gives them a huge power opportunity which government types are always going to be loath to give up. Have you ever seen a bureaucrat willingly give up power in ANY area?

2. But you never really get to the argument in point 1, because to answer your question directly, point 2 is that there are in fact a large number of countries that have moved, and are moving now, to incorporate more and more free market elements into what had been socialized systems.

France is probably the model that most of them are emulating. The French health care system is neither single-provider nor single-payer, something which neither Michael Moore nor numerous other "experts" that I have seen commenting on health care policy seem to understand. France has never had a purely socialized system, but it is my understanding that what they have today has moved significantly toward more of a market system than what they had previously. The French expect their "free" system (relative term, since nothing is actually "free" in their system, everything comes with a copay) to leave people stranded in queues, and they expect those people to use private care freely and often to get around the queues. That's one way they control costs on the "free" side.

UK is an excellent example of a country which had full socialized medicine (the single-provider NHS) and is now moving toward more private care alternatives. They aren't as far along in that direction as the French are, and one problem they have is that private care is still not used as often as in France and, with fewer economies of scale, private care remains much more expensive in UK than in France.

Canada has historically been the extreme example of a single-payer socialized system, but the Canadians are starting to implement some private-care options. I have read that their dental system either is now, or soon will be, have a private care option for 100% of services, but I can't verify that statement. If the US adopts the provisions of the house health care bill, Canadians won't have the option of using the US to dodge queues, and I would anticipate that Canada would then move very quickly toward allowing private care alternatives across the board.

This is pretty much the dominant trend in those countries which have had some degree of socialized medicine. The hybrid or two-tier system is where they are headed, some obviously faster than others.

The bottom line is that neither a full market-based system (which we don't actually have) nor a fully socialized system is without faults. I believe a hybrid system, with tax-funded universal basic care (with queueing for more advanced or specialized care) and a robust private care system as an alternative to queueing, is the most workable model. This is the direction that those countries which have had more or less comprehensive socialized medicene are now heading. I believe we should learn from them and go straight there, rather than spending 50 years to learn that socialized medicine doesn't work.

So, in answer to your question, there may not be anyone who has come all the way back to a US-style system, but there is clearly a widespread movement toward hybrid systems which attempt to combine the best of both--and if you're moving from a socialized system to that, then you are clearly moving TOWARD a US-style system.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2009 05:09 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-20-2009 05:08 PM
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Artifice Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-20-2009 05:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The bottom line is that neither a full market-based system (which we don't actually have) nor a fully socialized system is without faults. I believe a hybrid system, with tax-funded universal basic care (with queueing for more advanced or specialized care) and a robust private care system as an alternative to queueing, is the most workable model. This is the direction that those countries which have had more or less comprehensive socialized medicene are now heading. I believe we should learn from them and go straight there, rather than spending 50 years to learn that socialized medicine doesn't work.

This is the conclusion I am reaching as well.
07-21-2009 09:26 AM
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GGniner Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-20-2009 04:39 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Can anyone tell me...

Remember those riots in France c. 2006? Those were largely due to the large population of muslim immigrants who were unemployed (something like 60% unemployment) and living in slums.

Just an Update here, those Riots are still going on. Media is just refusing to report it, the lastest outbreak by the muslim, er "Youth", was last week and it was nasty

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas...rance.html
07-21-2009 10:11 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-21-2009 09:26 AM)Artifice Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 05:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The bottom line is that neither a full market-based system (which we don't actually have) nor a fully socialized system is without faults. I believe a hybrid system, with tax-funded universal basic care (with queueing for more advanced or specialized care) and a robust private care system as an alternative to queueing, is the most workable model. This is the direction that those countries which have had more or less comprehensive socialized medicene are now heading. I believe we should learn from them and go straight there, rather than spending 50 years to learn that socialized medicine doesn't work.

This is the conclusion I am reaching as well.

Seems to be realistic to me also. I will say though that removal of many of the government regulations...especially the FDA and its BS would greatly help in reducing costs. The high cost of drugs are directly related to the amount of regulatory costs that the drug companies incur.
07-21-2009 11:44 AM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-21-2009 11:44 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-21-2009 09:26 AM)Artifice Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 05:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The bottom line is that neither a full market-based system (which we don't actually have) nor a fully socialized system is without faults. I believe a hybrid system, with tax-funded universal basic care (with queueing for more advanced or specialized care) and a robust private care system as an alternative to queueing, is the most workable model. This is the direction that those countries which have had more or less comprehensive socialized medicene are now heading. I believe we should learn from them and go straight there, rather than spending 50 years to learn that socialized medicine doesn't work.

This is the conclusion I am reaching as well.

Seems to be realistic to me also. I will say though that removal of many of the government regulations...especially the FDA and its BS would greatly help in reducing costs. The high cost of drugs are directly related to the amount of regulatory costs that the drug companies incur.

Sure thing, remove the FDA and it's regulation and just let the drug companies use the population as guinea pigs. The regulation does have a purpose.

Fo Foolish to believe that greed and advertising don't contribute to just as much if not more to high cost of drugs.
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2009 12:34 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
07-21-2009 12:33 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-21-2009 11:44 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-21-2009 09:26 AM)Artifice Wrote:  
(07-20-2009 05:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The bottom line is that neither a full market-based system (which we don't actually have) nor a fully socialized system is without faults. I believe a hybrid system, with tax-funded universal basic care (with queueing for more advanced or specialized care) and a robust private care system as an alternative to queueing, is the most workable model. This is the direction that those countries which have had more or less comprehensive socialized medicene are now heading. I believe we should learn from them and go straight there, rather than spending 50 years to learn that socialized medicine doesn't work.

This is the conclusion I am reaching as well.

Seems to be realistic to me also. I will say though that removal of many of the government regulations...especially the FDA and its BS would greatly help in reducing costs. The high cost of drugs are directly related to the amount of regulatory costs that the drug companies incur.

It may be that a tiered system would work. You get full FDA approval, you stick it on your label, and you are more immune to litigation. However, expediting treatments to the marketplace, w/ labeling stating clearly the limits of approval at that point in time, could be a big benefit.

Like SOAF, I'm not anxious to throw out all regulation. The marketplace would certainly react to a poor drug treatment, but going broke b/c all your customers died, is not the sort of society I strive for.
07-21-2009 12:43 PM
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GGniner Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-21-2009 12:43 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Like SOAF, I'm not anxious to throw out all regulation. The marketplace would certainly react to a poor drug treatment, but going broke b/c all your customers died, is not the sort of society I strive for.

and there you lose all your big L libertarian Cred05-mafia

and in a nutshell thats the difference between amoral Libertarianism and Conservatism which in broad sweeps is Libertarian philosophy applied with a moral foundation.
07-21-2009 12:49 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/prin...179667.htm

Quote:The most recent ABC News/Washington Post poll (June 21) finds that 83 percent of Americans are very satisfied or somewhat satisfied with the quality of their health care, and 81 percent are similarly satisfied with their health insurance.

They have good reason to be. If you're diagnosed with cancer, you have a better chance of surviving it in the United States than anywhere else, according to the Concord Five Continent Study. And the World Health Organization ranked the United States No. 1 out of 191 countries for being responsive to patients' needs, including providing timely treatments and a choice of doctors.

Again, where's the crisis?
07-21-2009 12:57 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
The FDA is a necessary evil. We can't have untested drugs out there on the market. I do, however, believe that they should also support more generics as a means of establishing competition in the market.

As far as an medical system, I enjoy how it is in my hometown in NC. We have a public health dept., which gives checkups, immunizations, and prenatal care to uninsured patients. That keeps the emergency room clear of those who come for things like pregnancy tests and whatnot. Just think of it as the Brazilian system.
07-21-2009 12:59 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-21-2009 12:59 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  The FDA is a necessary evil. We can't have untested drugs out there on the market. I do, however, believe that they should also support more generics as a means of establishing competition in the market.

As far as an medical system, I enjoy how it is in my hometown in NC. We have a public health dept., which gives checkups, immunizations, and prenatal care to uninsured patients. That keeps the emergency room clear of those who come for things like pregnancy tests and whatnot. Just think of it as the Brazilian system.

Brazilian system. French system. Two very similar systems. The way we should go.
07-21-2009 03:03 PM
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
Quote:Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom. -----Alexis de Tocqueville
07-21-2009 03:10 PM
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
Those systems also allow for medical insurance to continue to be a very good benefit for jobs to give.
07-21-2009 03:10 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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RE: Does anyone know of a country who had socialized medicine.......
(07-21-2009 03:10 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Those systems also allow for medical insurance to continue to be a very good benefit for jobs to give.

And such insurance can be relatively cheap if it's supplemental to government care.
07-21-2009 03:12 PM
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