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The "free market"
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Artifice Offline
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The "free market"
Most, if not all of the current free market rhetoric, because of its staunch support for multinationals, and other privatized oligopolies, and other centralized, anti-competitive power structures, ultimately boils down to one thing:

Reverse Animal Farm.

Most of you and others that preach so called "free markets" just want to trade Snowball for Mr. Jones or Mr. Frederick (functionally if not symbolically).

There's not much functional day to day difference between a huge multinational and Govt (agencies), aside from the fact that you can, at least ostensibly, throw the bums out, even if its only to replace them with new bums. Neither practices accountability. They're insulated from it.

With Hedge funds owning controlling interests in most multinationals, there's no shareholder control, because you cannot get the necessary shareholder majority to successfully file a derivative suit, which, by the way, relies on the govt to adjudicate and enforce.

I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2009 09:38 AM by Artifice.)
07-18-2009 09:33 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  outside shot at NinerFan1.

Outside shot? What they hell did I do? I've never insulted you.
07-18-2009 09:44 AM
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Artifice Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 09:44 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  outside shot at NinerFan1.

Outside shot? What they hell did I do? I've never insulted you.

LOL I thought you'd be too busy tearing me a new one in the other thread 04-cheers
07-18-2009 09:49 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 09:49 AM)Artifice Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 09:44 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  outside shot at NinerFan1.

Outside shot? What they hell did I do? I've never insulted you.

LOL I thought you'd be too busy tearing me a new one in the other thread 04-cheers

Oh, ok. I love discussing healthcare. I think of all the debates on here it's the one that has the potential to be the most practical and least partisan. Note I said potential03-lmfao
07-18-2009 10:01 AM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: The "free market"
Well, the worst of the "oligopolies" are creations of state interventions in the markets. The Russians are pretty famous for this - otherwise you'd look at Korean and Japanese companies that result largely from state policies. GM, Chrysler, and such should be constrained by the free market, but guess what...

It's seriously misreading the situation to say that support for free markets equates to support for major corporations. Governments and large corporations are usually partners in market interventions and often in regulations. The reasons for this are obvious - it benefits politicians in the form of raw graft and it gives corporations with influence competitive advantage, which helps them grow into big corporations. In the face of regulations, most corporations would probably not have them, but if they are faced with it, they will partner with government to shape it to their competitive advantage.

Now, "reverse animal farm" - that's a nice way to turn a completely meaningless phrase. If you want to allege something, be specific - racism? "social darwinism" (which itself means the inverse of what it purports to mean)? caste system? what?
07-18-2009 10:33 AM
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Paul M Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.

You and Mach are really getting old with your cheap little shots at everyone else while asking that we don't play along in your childish games.

Almost forgot: dumb*** lib.
07-18-2009 11:19 AM
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Artifice Offline
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RE: The "free market"
It's not meaningless at all. Think about it from a functional perspective. The whole point of Animal Farm was that the Russian people had replaced one boss with another one.

What would Adam Smith think about our current economy which is dominated and controlled by multinationals and Goldman Sachs type interests?

Free markets are inherently amoral (not immoral, amoral). They rely on human beings to police themselves. How is that possible in an economy dominated by huge oligopoly structures of private industry? How do you account for the unequal moral leverage that capital provides?

How can we have a more classic small business oriented competitive economic system in a global economy? How does this suggest that classic free market ideology is too simplistic?

The ultimate goal of free market capitalism is self defeating - it is to win the game - to become the monopoly. How is a pure form, unregulated free market possible without being self defeating? How does the "free market" prevent predatory practices in regards to consumers and competitors, in order to ensure its continued viability?
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2009 11:31 AM by Artifice.)
07-18-2009 11:28 AM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #8
RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 11:19 AM)Paul M Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.

You and Mach are really getting old with your cheap little shots at everyone else while asking that we don't play along in your childish games.

Almost forgot: dumb*** lib.

You're as reliably, mindlessly predictable as a Swiss time piece. 03-lmfao
07-18-2009 11:29 AM
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Paul M Offline
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RE: The "free market"
Thank you. I really don't want you to be lonely.
07-18-2009 11:33 AM
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Artifice Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 11:33 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Thank you. I really don't want you to be lonely.

You could always engage in a discussion and leave the typical partisanship, and aggressive ideological stuff behind.

Or you could take cheap shots that bounce harmlessly off my discussion.

Free will is a wonderful thing.
07-18-2009 11:35 AM
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Paul M Offline
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RE: The "free market"
Quote:I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.

Stop with the cheap shots and not expecting the same in return.
07-18-2009 11:51 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #12
RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  Most, if not all of the current free market rhetoric, because of its staunch support for multinationals, and other privatized oligopolies, and other centralized, anti-competitive power structures, ultimately boils down to one thing:

Reverse Animal Farm.

Most of you and others that preach so called "free markets" just want to trade Snowball for Mr. Jones or Mr. Frederick (functionally if not symbolically).

You have an inappropriate definition of "free market." It's that simple. If you keep trying to smuggle in these wrong definitions, then yes, you will be insulted. You've gotta get your terms straight if you want to be logical.

As for the ad homenim attacks, wasn't it you that claimed that's all we did in one of your earliest posts, but couldn't answer when I challenged you when and where?
07-18-2009 01:34 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  Most, if not all of the current free market rhetoric, because of its staunch support for multinationals, and other privatized oligopolies, and other centralized, anti-competitive power structures, ultimately boils down to one thing:

Reverse Animal Farm.

Most of you and others that preach so called "free markets" just want to trade Snowball for Mr. Jones or Mr. Frederick (functionally if not symbolically).

There's not much functional day to day difference between a huge multinational and Govt (agencies), aside from the fact that you can, at least ostensibly, throw the bums out, even if its only to replace them with new bums. Neither practices accountability. They're insulated from it.

With Hedge funds owning controlling interests in most multinationals, there's no shareholder control, because you cannot get the necessary shareholder majority to successfully file a derivative suit, which, by the way, relies on the govt to adjudicate and enforce.

I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.

I'm sorry...There is one over riding and indisputable difference between the free market and government. Government has the self-mandated ability to steal and print money if to fund its operations. Those in the marketplace must respond to market signals of competition. Government has NO competition.

Liberals love to say that without the government..."monopolies" will take over and make slaves of the consumer. Nothing could be further from reality.

There are only 2 types of monopoly...market based and coercive. Market based monopolies are short term and occur because a business is the "best" in its marketplace. No evidence can be given of a long term market monopoly because there is ALWAYS an opportunity for someone to enter the marketplace and try to compete.
Coercive monopolies are "government granted". The USPS is an example of this type of monopoly. Congress gave the USPS a monopoly on the delivery of first class mail...That is why they have a coercive monopoly in their market. No one can enter their marketplace...by LAW. Funny...the UPS has kicked the USPS in delivery of parcels. Wonder why? UPS has supplied the marketplace with superior service,price and quality.05-stirthepot
07-18-2009 04:13 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #14
RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 04:13 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  No evidence can be given of a long term market monopoly because there is ALWAYS an opportunity for someone to enter the marketplace and try to compete.

Strongly disagree with you here Fo - From Robber Barons, to Standard Oil, to Microsoft - there is such evidence.

And you didn't adderss the difference between the huge multinational/oligoplies and the type of small, localnumerous free market competition that Smith was actually contemplating.

As to your point about Govt "prinintg money" - it's a good argument, but for the ability of a oligopoly or monopoly to also create funding by price fixing. It's a different mechanism to the same end.

My point is that "free markets" is both a heavily bastardized/adulterated term in the modern political discourse, and unworkable as such an oversimplified ideology. I lean strongly towards localized competition (free markets), but recognize the issues that inherently plague a truly unregulated system, and the realities of the global economy of today.

I've used the NFL as a good, basic example of how regulated competition of multiple privately owned franchises can blossom. But, it is also a good example of an oligopoly as well - the barriers to entry for a competitor league are staggering, and like other industries, they'll just muscle out or buy out competition, if it ever comes together.
07-20-2009 09:49 AM
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Jugnaut Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-18-2009 04:13 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  Most, if not all of the current free market rhetoric, because of its staunch support for multinationals, and other privatized oligopolies, and other centralized, anti-competitive power structures, ultimately boils down to one thing:

Reverse Animal Farm.

Most of you and others that preach so called "free markets" just want to trade Snowball for Mr. Jones or Mr. Frederick (functionally if not symbolically).

There's not much functional day to day difference between a huge multinational and Govt (agencies), aside from the fact that you can, at least ostensibly, throw the bums out, even if its only to replace them with new bums. Neither practices accountability. They're insulated from it.

With Hedge funds owning controlling interests in most multinationals, there's no shareholder control, because you cannot get the necessary shareholder majority to successfully file a derivative suit, which, by the way, relies on the govt to adjudicate and enforce.

I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.

I'm sorry...There is one over riding and indisputable difference between the free market and government. Government has the self-mandated ability to steal and print money if to fund its operations. Those in the marketplace must respond to market signals of competition. Government has NO competition.

Liberals love to say that without the government..."monopolies" will take over and make slaves of the consumer. Nothing could be further from reality.

There are only 2 types of monopoly...market based and coercive. Market based monopolies are short term and occur because a business is the "best" in its marketplace. No evidence can be given of a long term market monopoly because there is ALWAYS an opportunity for someone to enter the marketplace and try to compete.
Coercive monopolies are "government granted". The USPS is an example of this type of monopoly. Congress gave the USPS a monopoly on the delivery of first class mail...That is why they have a coercive monopoly in their market. No one can enter their marketplace...by LAW. Funny...the UPS has kicked the USPS in delivery of parcels. Wonder why? UPS has supplied the marketplace with superior service,price and quality.05-stirthepot

There is a big difference between gov't and corporations: Coercive Legal Authority. The gov't can do whatever it wants and legitimize it's own actions, a corporation can't.
07-20-2009 10:08 AM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #16
RE: The "free market"
(07-20-2009 10:08 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 04:13 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 09:33 AM)Artifice Wrote:  Most, if not all of the current free market rhetoric, because of its staunch support for multinationals, and other privatized oligopolies, and other centralized, anti-competitive power structures, ultimately boils down to one thing:

Reverse Animal Farm.

Most of you and others that preach so called "free markets" just want to trade Snowball for Mr. Jones or Mr. Frederick (functionally if not symbolically).

There's not much functional day to day difference between a huge multinational and Govt (agencies), aside from the fact that you can, at least ostensibly, throw the bums out, even if its only to replace them with new bums. Neither practices accountability. They're insulated from it.

With Hedge funds owning controlling interests in most multinationals, there's no shareholder control, because you cannot get the necessary shareholder majority to successfully file a derivative suit, which, by the way, relies on the govt to adjudicate and enforce.

I put the over under on non-insult, non "you stupid libs" replies to this at 1. Maybe WMD Owl 69/70/75, maybe Fo, outside shot at NinerFan1. Rest will be the same tired partisan sniper squad and their boring insults. GGNiner will post a wall of copy paste from his favorite Anglo_Christian blogs on why this all the islamofasicstatheistcommunistsocialistbrownpeoples' fault.

I'm sorry...There is one over riding and indisputable difference between the free market and government. Government has the self-mandated ability to steal and print money if to fund its operations. Those in the marketplace must respond to market signals of competition. Government has NO competition.

Liberals love to say that without the government..."monopolies" will take over and make slaves of the consumer. Nothing could be further from reality.

There are only 2 types of monopoly...market based and coercive. Market based monopolies are short term and occur because a business is the "best" in its marketplace. No evidence can be given of a long term market monopoly because there is ALWAYS an opportunity for someone to enter the marketplace and try to compete.
Coercive monopolies are "government granted". The USPS is an example of this type of monopoly. Congress gave the USPS a monopoly on the delivery of first class mail...That is why they have a coercive monopoly in their market. No one can enter their marketplace...by LAW. Funny...the UPS has kicked the USPS in delivery of parcels. Wonder why? UPS has supplied the marketplace with superior service,price and quality.05-stirthepot

There is a big difference between gov't and corporations: Coercive Legal Authority. The gov't can do whatever it wants and legitimize it's own actions, a corporation can't.

Corporate lobbysists literally write the laws that apply to them. Commodities Futures Modernization Act? Enron? Ring a bell? Lobbyists literally wrote that one and handed it in for Gramm & Co. to introduce and pass.

Thanks for illustrating another problem we have. Lobbyists should NEVER be authoring legislation. Fox -> keys -> hen house.
07-20-2009 10:18 AM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: The "free market"
(07-20-2009 10:18 AM)Artifice Wrote:  Corporate lobbysists literally write the laws that apply to them. Commodities Futures Modernization Act? Enron? Ring a bell? Lobbyists literally wrote that one and handed it in for Gramm & Co. to introduce and pass.

Thanks for illustrating another problem we have. Lobbyists should NEVER be authoring legislation. Fox -> keys -> hen house.

Well, there you have both an area of probably universal agreement and a fundamental difference in political philosophy. Virtually no-one agrees that lobbyists should author legislation (in spite of the fact that it is precisely the function of lobbyists to do precisely that). Yet, the Libertarian viewpoint is basically that this is an inevitable consequence of something other than a true free market and that (non-Stalinist) socialists of various stripes are engaged both in a sisyphean task of profiting both from the influence that they gain by exerting control over corporations (in the form of Lobbyist contributions) and by denouncing corruption (in the form of Lobbyist contributions). There is a symbiotic relationship between regulators and lobbyists that you have declined to acknowledge, much less to explain how to reconcile it with a fair system.
07-20-2009 02:42 PM
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Post: #18
RE: The "free market"
(07-20-2009 09:49 AM)Artifice Wrote:  
(07-18-2009 04:13 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  No evidence can be given of a long term market monopoly because there is ALWAYS an opportunity for someone to enter the marketplace and try to compete.

Strongly disagree with you here Fo - From Robber Barons, to Standard Oil, to Microsoft - there is such evidence.

Your knowledge of history is cliched, and in error.

I'd think you'd be better off addressing WalMart than Std Oil or Microsoft.

You don't think Microsoft has competition? Ever hear of Google? (And don't even get me going on how the gov't switched from Word Perfect, even as it was pursuing anti-trust issues).

Anyway Rockefeller's criticisms are long on hyperbole and short on fact.
Here's a tip: everything they taught you in 8th grade history wasn't true.

As for the robber barons, more proof that you are inaccurately describing the free market.

Quote:My point is that "free markets" is both a heavily bastardized/adulterated term in the modern political discourse, and unworkable as such an oversimplified ideology. I lean strongly towards localized competition (free markets), but recognize the issues that inherently plague a truly unregulated system, and the realities of the global economy of today.

I've used the NFL as a good, basic example of how regulated competition of multiple privately owned franchises can blossom. But, it is also a good example of an oligopoly as well - the barriers to entry for a competitor league are staggering, and like other industries, they'll just muscle out or buy out competition, if it ever comes together.

Well if you do know this then why do you post such absurd comments?

Yes the NFL has shut down other football leagues, although those often managed to destroy themselves far worse than the NFL (USFL, XFL). College football is every bit as big as the NFL, showing that the NFL does not have a true monopoly.

Furthermore, the NFL has competitors b/c its market is entertainment. The NBA, NASCAR and MLB are competitors. The NFL has neither muscled nor bought out any of these competitors. In fact MNF got bullied by Vince McMahon's Monday Night Raw...showing the market will do what the market wants.
07-20-2009 03:05 PM
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Post: #19
RE: The "free market"
notice how Lobbyiest groups such as the Trial Lawyers of America, Labor Unions and the Abortion Industry, all Multi-Billion dollar Industries(that are very much Profiting) never get singled out by the Left for Lobbying and writing bills. Just the "Big Corporations", most of which get forced into this because long ago the Public/Private line was broken opening the door to Coercion against Business. Its in their interest to at that point play the game. Note how Wal-Mart has finally submitted to these pressures now that the Dems have power, and by extension the Labor Unions ready to go in for the kill.

The Abortion Industry is writing into ObamaCare Taxpayer Funded Abortions among other things for example, can you say "Pay-Offs" just like Porkulus was:

(This post was last modified: 07-20-2009 03:24 PM by GGniner.)
07-20-2009 03:07 PM
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GGniner Offline
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RE: The "free market"
Microsoft is a good example here, before they got stabbed in the back with "Anti-Trust" push against them in Washington, they had NO Lobbyiest presence in Washington. None, now they have one of the largest influence in Washington and I can't blame them. Its in their interest obviously since our Government and many citizens need, out of Greed and Envy, to make a whipping boy out of the Successful and Prosperous.

Ralph Nader, another lying Hypocrite and Hack, when he went after Microsoft he held Financial Interest with their competitors and stood to profit from his dishonest attacks against Microsoft. Something he has done repeatedly over the years and the Media lets him get away with it.

There are two types of Entreprenuers in our current System: market entrepreneurs and political entrepreneurs. Public collusion with private interests is a form of mercantilism at best and fascism at worst. Most Definitely NOT the free market at work. And if the bogeyman we are trying to avoid is that of "trusts" and "monopolies," then we are much more likely to create monopolies by allowing businessmen to get influence in the government. Why is Washington flooded with lobbyists from the private sector? Well they can get something there.

The only legitimate interest a business may have in lobbying is if it is trying to fight off intrusive legislation, or if it is supporting legislation that maintains a business climate that refuses to favor one business over another. However, nearly all modern regulations, taxes, etc. do not meet this criteria.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2009 03:23 PM by GGniner.)
07-20-2009 03:20 PM
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