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OT: America was founded on Christian principles
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #21
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
(07-08-2009 01:15 PM)ShockerBob Wrote:  
(07-08-2009 12:38 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  Well.... more technically religious freedom of expression was why the Pilgrims came over. And...hmmm weren't the Indians here first?

And...hmmm weren't the Pueblo Indians here before the classified Native Indians? Because the Native Indians killed and drove off the Pueblo Indians.

And the Pueblo Indians, they killed a more asian related inhabitants of North America. So forth and so forth...

So where do you draw the line on 'original inhabitants'?

Who really belongs to the British Isles? France?? (Franks? Or Gauls? Neanderthal? Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys?????)


These "well, these people existed here first" f'n analogies drive me insane. Every piece of land on this planet has been taken by force..over and over again.

03-yes +1
07-08-2009 06:46 PM
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mlb Offline
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Post: #22
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
What did Thomas Jefferson think about religion? 03-wink
07-08-2009 08:34 PM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
Just because we were founded on Christian principles doesn't mean that we were founded on Christian theology as some would try to argue. Christian principles in themselves are very similar to most other world religions.
07-08-2009 09:18 PM
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PirateTreasureNC Offline
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Post: #24
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
(07-08-2009 01:15 PM)ShockerBob Wrote:  
(07-08-2009 12:38 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  Well.... more technically religious freedom of expression was why the Pilgrims came over. And...hmmm weren't the Indians here first?

And...hmmm weren't the Pueblo Indians here before the classified Native Indians? Because the Native Indians killed and drove off the Pueblo Indians.

And the Pueblo Indians, they killed a more asian related inhabitants of North America. So forth and so forth...

So where do you draw the line on 'original inhabitants'?

Who really belongs to the British Isles? France?? (Franks? Or Gauls? Neanderthal? Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys?????)


These "well, these people existed here first" f'n analogies drive me insane. Every piece of land on this planet has been taken by force..over and over again. The Land belongs to God or Mother Earth..or whatever you believe in..in a higher manner. The United States just happens to administer the land for the time being. Because we can.

(not a shot at you Pirate 03-drunk )


Well....


The Pilgrims were Christians and they did want to express their Christianity more freely than they could in their home country. The USA is open to all religions, however since the "founding fathers" were of Christian origin that is why we are so Christian god focused.


AS far as which Indians settled in the Americas first... whether they be of Asian decent based on that land bridge from Russia to Alaska or not.... isn't it kind of interesting that we have "similar" pyramids in Egypt, Asia, and South America. I think I read somewhere that Egyptians may have gotten over to South America first with their invention of the boat.
07-08-2009 09:21 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #25
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
(07-08-2009 08:34 PM)mlb Wrote:  What did Thomas Jefferson think about religion? 03-wink

I'm pretty sure you don't really know, or you wouldn't put such a stupid icon at this question.
07-09-2009 07:43 AM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #26
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
(07-08-2009 03:40 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by Congress (made up of members who were actually a part of the formation of this government), and signed by John Adams:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

and this is confusing Diplomacy with reality. The founders, like our politicians today, were capable of pandering and accomadations in Foreign Policy to meet their ends of the times, in that case the Barbary Pirates situation(the Jihadist war of their day).


as with alot of "Founder Quotes to make a point", many/most are often completely removed from the Politics and objectives of the era, resulting in the quotes being misleading in many cases.


As for Adams, his Massachusettes Constitution ratified 1780 stated the following:

Quote: The Governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless, at the time of his election… he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.

Chapter VI, Article I [All persons elected to State office or to the Legislature must] make and
subscribe the following declaration, viz. “I, _______, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth.”

Part I, Article III And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.”

and this was used during an era when States were as powerful as the Federal Government(i.e. Federalism).

Massachusetts had a large population of Puritans who settled there in the 1600's, leading to men like Founding Father and Presbyterian(Puritian) preacher John Witherspoon whose protege was....James Madison. Witherspoon is also a Founder of Princeton, which is currently a shell of its former self.


I'd also say you can draw a direct line in the logic of the the Reformation to the Logic of the Declaration of Indpendence. With a stop in between in England with the break from the Catholic Church, later on with Oliver Cromwell(Puritian) who hated the idea of Kings and first introduced the concept of a Republic, which later that century lead to the "Glorious Revolution" "Magna Carta" and "Declaration of Rights" which our Founders cited in our Revolution.

One King, One Lawgiver, who grants rights to All Nations or in the language of the Declaration of Indpendence:

Quote:We are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights ...
the "King of Kings".
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2009 08:59 AM by GGniner.)
07-09-2009 08:57 AM
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mlb Offline
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Post: #27
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
(07-09-2009 07:43 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(07-08-2009 08:34 PM)mlb Wrote:  What did Thomas Jefferson think about religion? 03-wink

I'm pretty sure you don't really know, or you wouldn't put such a stupid icon at this question.

Or... I wanted someone to look it up for themself.

Thomas Jefferson Wrote:"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites" –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

As a founding father, he did not base it on "christianity", simple as that. My personal belief is that it was a common sense "treat others as you wish to be treated" basis.
07-09-2009 09:14 AM
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cb4029 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
Quote:Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys

WTF 03-lmfao
07-09-2009 09:18 AM
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wvucrazed Offline
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Post: #29
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
The founding fathers came from a wide variety of religious backgrounds - some of them were Deists, including George Washington. Ben Franklin was essentially agnostic. The founders were very careful NOT to impose specific religious ideals as part of government. In America, we have freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion. I don't care what/how/who you want to worship, just leave me out of it.


James Madison:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [April 1, 1774]
07-09-2009 09:58 AM
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ecuacc4ever Offline
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Post: #30
RE: OT: America was founded on Christian principles
(07-08-2009 03:28 PM)Sophandros Wrote:  
(07-08-2009 02:30 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  We were founded as a Christian nation, but today we are not that nation. Christians are in the minority today.

Quit bearing false witness. Christians comprise of the vast majority of the population of America.

And we were NOT founded as a Christian nation. We were founded as a nation where people were free to practice whatever their faith (or lack thereof) is. Christianity is included in this freedom, as were all other faiths.

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07-09-2009 12:44 PM
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