(05-29-2009 08:59 AM)I45owl Wrote: Ok, but you still haven't explain the pork thing. Maybe God could've said "Look - don't eat swine because you just don't know how to cook it right. My son - he's a master chef - he'll explain it to you later...".
Seriously - if the "included" books are just the same as the "not-included" books, then you've still got a problem. If you read the Bible as a whole, you're still not getting the total picture. The whole-Bible argument leads you to think that you're only reading the cliff notes if you read KJV, and you'd better get reading before you make any judgments.
Conversely, the fact that the Powers That Be made the judgment (in your narrative) that "this is good enough" to get the whole picture also argues that you could view some subset of the Bible as providing enough of a narrative to provide a coherent moral guide for a given situation.
I will note that I don't buy your narrative insofar as I think that judgments about what books were included/not included have at least something to do with the Bible's editors acting as to filter/direct what narrative was portrayed. i.e. the factors of "aw, no-one's ever going to believe that" or "well, these two books can't both be true" or "the guy that wrote this one was a f'in nut case".
Finally, I'd say that the structure of the Koran - being a singular document with a well known source - is more like what I'd expect of a divine-inspired document. It at least provides the possibility that specific real-life problems can be addressed from a singular moral guide. The fact that that specific guide is an epic failure* and that the coming of Islam appears as a dark storm front of impending doom on the horizon gives you an idea of how I feel about it as "revealed truth".
* judging by the words regarding the "death of innocents" and the many many suicide bombings inspired by the Koran that specifically target innocents
I45, I totally see your point and understand why you may look at it that way.
Man, to try to explain it is going to take so much writing that it will get fairly boring.
I will try to make a Summary as best I can.
Let me preface it with this fact: The word "Testament" was changed by Man from "Covenant" - - - the Bible should actually and accurately read, "The Old Covenant and The New Covenant" - - the Word of God is a Covenant from God to we humans, yet it is also a Testament to what occurred that is written about.
Firstly, the Old Testament is based fully on the Laws of God given to Moses (Adam is in there, just not a Prophet as Moses was) and the Law was LAW .... you break it you die.
And you have to understand that God had never created Man before or a Creature with a Soul and Free Will .... so even as Omniscient and Omnipotent as God is, all this was as much of a Learning Experience for Him as it was and still is for us.
God had to change rules and basics of the Law to mesh with our Insecurities, Weaknesses, and just plain Stubborn Behaviors or none of us would have had a chance after Earthly Death.
Look at the Decree of Divorce that Moses was allowed to give the Israelites as they trampled thru the Desert for their 40 Years Punishment. That was NEVER intended, but God had to see Humans for what He made us and that was greedy, fallible, selfish beings and He had to shift accordingly or the alternative was to wipe us all from the face of the Earth under Penalty of Sin which is Death. "The Wages of Sin is Death" or Separation from God.
It is plainly said that "If you live by the Law, you will Die Under the Penalty of the Law" and that is where you have to go from the Old Testament to the New Testament and the Changes that came with Jesus Christ and the Law.
Not one single human being can survive Gods Law - - it is just too perfect for us to be able to abide by and we were all going to Hell except for a chosen few who were doing the will of God such as Moses.
I mean look at all the Laws we have on Mans Books today and our Prisons are full to bursting because Humans Break the Law.
And God saw that Rituals and Ceremony from within the Law was sending people to Hell just as fast and He again had to adjust so we would all not be obliterated from the face of the Earth.
Paul, a Jewish Apostle to the Gentiles and Roman Citizen, was made an Apostle to the Gentiles so he could teach them of Christ and God the Father, but had authority to not force upon them the Laws of Eating Certain Foods or Eating Certain Foods on Certain Days or Holy Days. Like the Passover with eating only unleavened bread - - that is part of the Law that if you Put Your Self Under the Threat and Power of and you NOT abide by it to the letter, it is pure Sin.
As a Gentile, I am not bound by the Passover in the same way a Law Abiding Jew is. I eat all kinds of stuff during the Passover and I have NOT Sinned by doing so - - according to Paul and all of his writings as well as the actual Words of Jesus.
Jesus stated that "I come not to change one letter of the Law, but to give you everlasting life that you can Survive the Law and from my Grace, can enter into Heaven". It simply means that before Christ appearance on the Earth, no one was ever found Righteous and therefore could not enter into Heaven.
Well I have to look at it this way, God saw an empty Heaven that was Void of Humans and He had to deal with it or what was the use of His Creating Us in the First Place ??
So enter Jesus Christ who would "take on all the Sin of the World from the Beginning of Time to the Last Day of the Earth" by allowing himself to be the Final and Ultimate Sacrifice for ALL SIN.
That is why we no longer offer animal sacrifices as a Biblical Law. Jesus Christ being Slain on the Cross WAS the Final and Ultimate Sacrifice for all Human Beings no matter what Sin they had committed. Jesus thus absolved humans from ever having to offer a Blood Sacrifice to God again to Atone For or be Forgiven of their Sin.
Sure, if you have made a Promise to God to live under the Law of only eating Kosher (certain parts of certain animals) and you stray from that Ritual/Law, then you have Sinned and must Atone or ask Forgiveness for that Breaking of the Law.
In the New Testament, Paul was given authority to state in the Name of Jesus Christ, that "All God's Creatures Were Clean To Eat" and that eating anything that you could consider food was no longer a Sin unless you made it one by calling it a Law to Obey. This is where the quote that "It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but it is what comes out of him that does so" .... eat anything you can stomach to eat and God holds no grudges, make it a Promise or a Ritual to God and you best keep it or yes, you are Committing Sin by breaking the Law.
Old Testament Jews who still live by the Law of Moses have to deal with their choice to do so at the risk of their own peril if they fall away from that Law. Gentiles who believe in Christ as the Savior know they must STILL Adhere to the Commandments, but unlike in the Old Testament, now there is the Grace of Christ to give your Salvation if you Transgress or Sin or Break any of the Commandments.
And to try to shorten it up a bit, I like knowing that God and Christ used a varied number of Individuals to Write "Books", rather than me relying on a single Human Being like Mohammad's Singularity of Word as Truth and Gospel to live and die by as Muslims seem to like to do.
I don't know what people try to get out of "Finding Homosexuality" in the Bible being an OK Thing when it is Straightforwardly States that Sodomy is a Sin period and taking up with another of the "Same Sex" is an Abomination - - how do you draw an OK from Bible for being a Homosexual from those very unambiguous words is way beyond me.
In the Bible, Homosexual Behavior is a SIN and that is that ... it does not say one can not be Forgiven of it, it says it is wrong and if you Die while in Sin, you have screwed up. That is what I know.
ALL SIN is forgivable except for one and this is "THE Single Mortal Sin" and it is to "Deny the Holy Spirit" .... in effect, if you Deny God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit, there is no Turning Back and No Forgiveness for that - - in essence you have said God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, and Heaven does not exist and you have Separated your self from God and He then will Separate Him self from you likewise. I mean it is a give and take relationship being a Christian - - there are NO Instant Christians if you die before you are Saved by Grace and Salvation. But then that is a Judgment Call when you go before Christ on that Day.
I honestly try to Judge no one and I hope that when I die and walk up to the Gates of Heaven, I see some of the more awful sinners of history waiting inside to greet me .... this way, I will be pretty sure that I have made it too, since some of the ones I am speaking of have been some pretty bad boys compared to me ... but then a Sin is a Sin is a Sin and Christ will treat All that come before Him on that basis and He will Judge, not me.
So you see, my Bible tells me that All of us who Believe in Christ and God's Word have a chance at Salvation without having to perform strange and weird Rituals and Abide by Strange and Ritualistic Laws and Customs i.e. Eating Foods.
If you want to eat Worms then eat Worms, if you want to eat Pork, eat it until you hate eating it, simply take it as a gift from God, Bless it, and Eat.
Once you start enacting Promises, Laws, and Rituals to God over it, then you are subject to Sin and Death and Death means when you Pass from this Earth, you are Separated from God and no longer have the opportunity to have Grace Give You Salvation.
This is why you have Jews of the Old Testament and Jews of the New Testament ... being Jewish does not mean you only believe in the Law of Moses - - a heck of a lot of Jews are Christians as well because they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior the same as I do.
At least in the Bible, we have the Gift of Grace of Salvation, I don't know that the Koran offers much leeway from their Strict Laws and Rituals as the Bible Does.
And sure, if you read the Bible out of Context, you will be more confused afterward than your were before - - it seems like a hodgepodge if you look at it that way.
That is why you need a Bible that uses "Scripture References" that will take you from a Verse in the Old Testament directly to it's Co-Scripture in the New Testament and then back to the Old Testament. One Biblical Verse can have several Scripture References that can take you all over the Bible to show you a Pure Point or Definition or Reason for why something was said or why something happened in the way it did.
The Bible is not a Novel to be "Skip Read", it is a Text Book for long years of study just to get a small bite of knowledge - - it can't be learned overnight or in a single sitting reading. It is meant to be studied.
So as long as this post is, it is about the best I can do to make it short enough and try to explain it and not skirt your Question or the Answer.
And how did "Shell Fish and Homosexuality" get mixed up in the same question ...
.
/
When Will California Make the Right Moral Decision?
![[Image: hypocrite_fish.jpg]](http://natomaslgbtq.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/hypocrite_fish.jpg)
