Netherlands closing prisons for lack of criminals?

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2..._criminals

There's a bit about sterilizing addicted mothers on a bottom link. I think they have legalized drugs there. Any one else with first hand experience?



btw...... I'm a little disappointed WMD couldn't find out how high up the food chain that Saudi princess was. If anyone had the contacts I thought it would be him. There were secret service all around the place too.

they have a declining population, "lowest of the lows" in demographic terms.

we don't want to copy too much of what they have done.

(05-27-2009 12:54 PM)GGniner Wrote:  they have a declining population, "lowest of the lows" in demographic terms.

we don't want to copy too much of what they have done.

Internal population growth may be negative, but overall it seems the country is growing

http://esa.un.org/unpp/p2k0data.asp

I believe Mach asks a legitimate question. What can we learn from them?

well all drugs are legal there obviously, and is much less a "Law and Order" nation.

We'll probably see more of these stories in near future, because with states like California going bankrupt they will want to legalize things like all Drugs, Prostitution, etc., break from our traditions, to free up Prison space.

Which will on paper save the State money, that they can then continue to pay off the Teachers Unions with.

The teacher's unions have zip zero nada to do with this.

In California where they take up 50% of the budget, and the state is going bankrupt looking for ways to save money. Emptying the jails, legalizing drugs and prostitution(related to emptying jails) are all ways to decrease their Fiscal problems and continue funding for Education, etc.

What can we learn from the Dutch? Well I am sure there are many things to learn, but I am always wary of trying to apply success stories from a completely urbanized country of 16.5 million with a singular geography that you can drive across in a day, to a country with vast rural swaths and a population of 306 million that takes 6 days to drive from coast to coast.

Though in very much seriousness, we could learn a lot from the Dutch in regards to water management. Most of their country is below sea level and the mean elevation of the low country is something like 3.3 ft.

(05-27-2009 01:04 PM)GGniner Wrote:  well all drugs are legal there obviously, and is much less a "Law and Order" nation.

I don't believe all drugs are legal there. The ones that are are highly regulated (pot). I believe they have a times had a "no-harassment" policy on drug use in certain parks, but that itself was highly controversial and I'm not sure if it is still in effect. I'm pretty sure the sale of drugs like cocaine and heroin, etc is illegal. Even pot is a controlled substance.

What the Netherlands does have is a somewhat coherent policy (whereas ours is to make signature laws to advance specific politicians' careers):

• To prevent drug use and to treat and rehabilitate drug users.
• To reduce harm to users.
• To diminish public nuisance by drug users (the disturbance of public order and safety in the neighborhood).
• To combat the production and trafficking of drugs.

I thought they had districts to go and shoot up heroine and what not? My point was starting in California there will be a movement soon toward this by the left and libertarians, and it will be highly regulated likely keeping a black market in place. The piont though will be to Tax it(more Tax Revenues) and empty the jails of drug offenders(save tax money), this will allow California in the short term to keep their huge budget going with over 50% going to Education: "Drugs for Education!"

the Dutch have a rich history and we do share alot with them. The Dutch Reformers built in the 1600's what is basically the Open Society model, that the British took later on and then we took from the British. Its the source of Prosperity.

The Dutch also had the first market economy Asset Bubble during this time.

GG-
You have compelling arguments from a side I usually don't agree with. I do respect your opinion. But, if we can take ideas on some things people are doing better than us, why wouldn't we try it? The war on drugs is the very definition of futility. How do you make war on a family member? If someone falls victim to an addiction, why do we treat this as a crime? The money would be better spent imho on rehabilitation and treatment. Once a person becomes convicted of a felony drug crime he is stigmatized for the rest of his life. Then the downward spiral begins.

.

We can learn NOT to be like the Netherlands ...

Pretty basic stuff on a Common Sense level ... an Attribute of which our present reigning TOTUS is not too awfully endowed with.

But then this guy has his sights set on a bigger Ideology that surpasses the Nederlands (a little Sven lingo there), he is taking us to bigger and higher heights of pure Socialistic Communism on a Fork.

.

the truth about Drugs, is that the Government already does tolerate a good bit of it. Local Govts. pretty much know who the big fish are dealing the stuff locally....they let it slide, the dealers they bust are the low level street thugs who they are certain are guilty of other crimes but its much easier to lock them up on drug charges(liberals will rationalize Gun Laws on these grounds) because you catch them with the evidence on them. Getting them on rape, murder, breaking and entering is much harder if you don't catch them in the act. My dad was mayor of a city for 8yrs, he had a citizen come to him to tell him about a Restaurant dealing on the side, he went to the Chief of Police....who already knew and shrugged, saying they 'didn't have the time or resources to do anything about it'.

some restaraunts, Junk yards, car lots....around the country are part of the huge distribution network which makes it so accessible. Some towns are more corrupt, paticularly those just off the Interstate(High Point, NC for example).

anyway, the underlying argument for legalizing all these types of behaviors. Whether Drugs, Prostitution, Gay Marriage....latter own Polygomy, Pedophilia, etc. Is the question of Societal Standards we will live by? What is our source of Authority and Morality? Traditionally the West was built on a Transcendent morality with a source of authority(The bible). Throw that out the window, and all you are left is a Humanistic basis of values and laws. Man is the measure of all things, he has no source of authority to look to and must make law and decide societal standards/morality own his own. Historically this leads to disaster in the end.


I can be pursuaded to legalizing pot, though I'm probably against it for practical reasons of what is most likely to come of it(as mentioned above). None of the other stuff(hard drugs, prostitution, pedophilia).

Idealistically, I'm against 'sin taxes'. i.e. tobacco, alcohol....trans fats. They infringe on Liberty of Conscience, which is important.

(05-28-2009 09:22 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  GG-
You have compelling arguments from a side I usually don't agree with. I do respect your opinion. But, if we can take ideas on some things people are doing better than us, why wouldn't we try it? The war on drugs is the very definition of futility. How do you make war on a family member? If someone falls victim to an addiction, why do we treat this as a crime?

Because it is a crime.

Quote: The money would be better spent imho on rehabilitation and treatment.

There is no proof of this, quite the contrary. Very few treatment programs boast long term success, most are lucky to boast 20% short term success.

I'd much rather see this in a bigger picture, asking what you asked initially, what can we learn from the Netherlands.

I'm not convinced that simply legalizing drugs has led to their empty prisons. Even if that's the case, Lord Stanley's comments ring true, the US is much different than Holland. Would that work here?

Taking a quick look,
Crime is lower in Las Vegas and San Francisco, w/ their lax social policies. But it skyrockets in Baltimore which is also politically left. It's also high in Atlanta. Is this due to drug activity? You could probably make that case. Would legalizing pot make this go away? Would people still fight over crack? Would legal heroin reduce the crack addiction?

That's a complicated equation. I do think the US needs to look at other places. I also believe that this is a community level decision. I wouldn't fault Indianapolis if they said "no drugs" even if Chicago legalized them. Community members should decide their own laws.

(05-28-2009 09:55 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  Taking a quick look,
Crime is lower in Las Vegas and San Francisco, w/ their lax social policies. But it skyrockets in Baltimore which is also politically left. It's also high in Atlanta. Is this due to drug activity? You could probably make that case. Would legalizing pot make this go away? Would people still fight over crack? Would legal heroin reduce the crack addiction?

if you start analyzing the differences in these places, the PC police will be all over you. No honest debate is possible on this subject. you'll get into the worldview of 'rich/poor' vs. the cultural heritage view(which can get paticularly nasty) vs. break down of the family and rise of Single mothers raising kids on welfare...

Atlanta is politically left too, and corrupt. The Productive class all moved to the burbs, which has helped make traffic a nightmare there.

If we make murder, rape, robbery, arson, and kidnapping all legal, we can empty a lot of prisons. Who's game?

(05-28-2009 08:58 AM)GGniner Wrote:  I thought they had districts to go and shoot up heroine and what not?

I thought they had a park where the tried to concentrate hard-core drug use ... that may date back to the 80s and may have been shut down long ago. Their are some counter-intuitive factoids according to wikipedia:

Quote:Netherlands has a high anti-drug related public expenditure, the second highest drug related public expenditure per capita of all countries in EU (after Sweden). 75% is law enforcement expenditures including police, army, law courts, prisons, customs and finance guards. 25% is health and social care expenditures including treatment, harm reduction, health research and educational including prevention and social affairs interventions.
...
Cannabis remains a controlled substance in the Netherlands and both possession and production for personal use are still misdemeanors, punishable by fine. Coffee shops are also technically illegal according to the statutes but, as has been said, are flourishing nonetheless. However, a policy of non-enforcement has led to a situation where reliance upon non-enforcement has become common, and because of this the courts have ruled against the government when individual cases were prosecuted.
...
Opponents of the Dutch drug policy either call for full legalization, or argue that laws should penalize morally wrong or decadent behavior, whether this is enforceable or not. In the Dutch courts, however, it has long been determined that the institutionalized non-enforcement of statutes with well defined limits constitutes de facto decriminalization. The statutes are kept on the books mainly due to international pressure and in adherence with international treaties. A November 2008 poll showed that a 60% majority of the Dutch population support the legalisation of soft drugs. The same poll showed that 85% supported closing of all cannabis coffee shops within 250 meters of a walk from schools.

So, de-facto, soft drugs are legal, but they still have high anti-drug expenditures. They also have low drug prevalence among youth as compared to other EU nations and the US. But, that has limited utility in saying that the low drug use is a result of that policy.

(05-27-2009 01:04 PM)GGniner Wrote:  well all drugs are legal there obviously, and is much less a "Law and Order" nation.

We'll probably see more of these stories in near future, because with states like California going bankrupt they will want to legalize things like all Drugs, Prostitution, etc., break from our traditions, to free up Prison space.

Which will on paper save the State money, that they can then continue to pay off the Teachers Unions with.

When you consider that over 50% of our prison populations are incarcerated on drug related offenses, legalizing drugs doesn't sound like a bad idea. It would eliminate the major source of income for the criminal element, drugs could be regulated, which would get them out of the schools, and the government would be able to stop spending huge sums dealing with a large prison population of drug offenders. The price of drugs would then go down, causing less peripheral theft, as addicts no longer needed the money those thefts brought in to feed their habit...

Also, addicts could get clean needles for their drug use, slowing down the spread of bloodborne diseases, such as hepatitis and AIDS, which have become pandemic. I see only positives from the legalization of drugs. But I know few people agree. It makes too much sense...

(05-28-2009 10:51 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  When you consider that over 50% of our prison populations are incarcerated on drug related offenses, legalizing drugs doesn't sound like a bad idea.

No, I don't consider that. Do you have anything to back that claim up?

(05-28-2009 10:51 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(05-27-2009 01:04 PM)GGniner Wrote:  well all drugs are legal there obviously, and is much less a "Law and Order" nation.

We'll probably see more of these stories in near future, because with states like California going bankrupt they will want to legalize things like all Drugs, Prostitution, etc., break from our traditions, to free up Prison space.

Which will on paper save the State money, that they can then continue to pay off the Teachers Unions with.

When you consider that over 50% of our prison populations are incarcerated on drug related offenses, legalizing drugs doesn't sound like a bad idea. It would eliminate the major source of income for the criminal element, drugs could be regulated, which would get them out of the schools, and the government would be able to stop spending huge sums dealing with a large prison population of drug offenders. The price of drugs would then go down, causing less peripheral theft, as addicts no longer needed the money those thefts brought in to feed their habit...

Also, addicts could get clean needles for their drug use, slowing down the spread of bloodborne diseases, such as hepatitis and AIDS, which have become pandemic. I see only positives from the legalization of drugs. But I know few people agree. It makes too much sense...

If "too much sense" means "typical left-wing simple-mindedness" then I guess we agree.

It only makes sense if you believe your own hype. Most people can accept and learn from an honest critique. There are many flaws and uncertainties in your estimations. Plus you don't seem to consider that any one of your changes affect all other elements in your system.