burried in the NYT today, Obama's plans for "Preventive Detention"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/pol....html?_r=1

what a difference responsibility makes, a product of the ACLU left is making Dick Cheney blush these days on some National Security issues....using some slick doublespeak to make it happen along the way.

(05-21-2009 08:38 AM)GGniner Wrote:  burried in the NYT today, Obama's plans for "Preventive Detention"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/pol....html?_r=1
what a difference responsibility makes, a product of the ACLU left is making Dick Cheney blush these days on some National Security issues....using some slick doublespeak to make it happen along the way.

Who's to say that once he legitimizes the practice, he won't find ways to use it against other enemies of the state--for example, people who would like to keep their guns or their current health care coverage.

You right-wingers who were all over me when I was criticizing the patRIOT act, this is what I was really worried about. Shrub legitimized all of the things that Obama is going to do. That will keep all of the "history will vindicate him" talk down, at least for me.

national security measures, more encroaching than the Patriot Act, go back much farther than 2001....like Washington and Adams, so "Shrub" didn't exactly legitamize anything that hadn't already been legitamized.

in our system where our leaders are "given power by the consent of the governed", and there isn't a dictatorship with absolute hold on power, its unlikely they would systematically persucute innoncent Americans. Really the only way, would be if a vast majority of voters demanded it.


Community Liberties and Individual Liberties and other Rights, have always clashed against each other.

(05-21-2009 11:36 AM)GGniner Wrote:  its unlikely they would systematically persucute innoncent Americans. Really the only way, would be if a vast majority of voters demanded it.

You are way more optimistic than I am.
Although I must admit that it appears to me that a massive effort has been underway to convince a vast majority of voters to demand it in at least one instance--or at least, was underway until it began to look like Pelosi herself might end up in the crosshairs.

Quote:He raised the issue of preventive detention himself, but made clear that he had not made a decision on it.

Whew. If he does go through with that, that's really ****** up.

At issue here is the same passage and principle that was at issue at Gitmo. We've discussed it before 69/70/75, and I think we disagree.

Using this on political opponents is a bit too alarmist/movie plot for reality, but just the concept of it, even on foreign nationals is disturbing, for so many reasons.

I don't understand why he's trying to establish something for future presidents when future presidents will do what they feel they is necessary just like he is. Is Obama trying to impose his ideology on events that haven't occured yet which may need a more sophisticated way of proceeding? I sense a degree of arrogance.

(05-21-2009 03:11 PM)Artifice Wrote:  

Quote:He raised the issue of preventive detention himself, but made clear that he had not made a decision on it.

Whew. If he does go through with that, that's really ****** up.
At issue here is the same passage and principle that was at issue at Gitmo. We've discussed it before 69/70/75, and I think we disagree.
Using this on political opponents is a bit too alarmist/movie plot for reality, but just the concept of it, even on foreign nationals is disturbing, for so many reasons.

I am not sure what our disagreement was.
I would make a distinction between citizens and non-citizen terrorists, so I would disagree that dealing with US citizens involves the same passage and principle that is/was at issue at Gitmo.
I think captured terrorists are entitled to all rights they have under the Geneva Conventions (there are four of them, so the plural is correct), and that is to be shot dead on the spot. Citizens should be treated in accordance with all provisions to which they are entitled under the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
One big problem that I have with Obama is that he is exhibiting great concern for how captured terrorists are treated, but hasn't done much to address the rights of citizens that were trampled under the patRIOT act and its progeny. And I know some of you disagree, but citizen rights were trampled.
I'm not sure why Obama is taking that approach. Some of the possible reasons would be pretty sinister, as suggested here. I do hope it is not for one of the more sinister reasons.

on the other hand, Woodrow Wilson did get away with some pretty heavy handed tactics against American Citizens. Of course they were trying to force alliagence to the State at the time.

Alot would have to occur for them to get away with it politically today, with the internet, cable tv, etc.

anyway, so historically it is possible. On the other side though, paticularly with all the terrorist attacks that have been thwarted the last 8yrs successfully, its also possilbe the lack of taken prudent measures could reasonably lead to more successful attacks. and not just the human life cost in these attacks, don't forget the economic cost of such attacks, which is an ultimate goal of the Jihadist(to topple us).

He wasn't the first one, GGniner.

SMN - love the new avatar. Floyd rules, man!

(05-21-2009 10:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  SMN - love the new avatar. Floyd rules, man!

Damn, thanks for the explanation. Problem is, I still don't know what the hell you guys are talking about.

(05-21-2009 10:47 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-21-2009 10:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  SMN - love the new avatar. Floyd rules, man!

Damn, thanks for the explanation. Problem is, I still don't know what the hell you guys are talking about.

Avatar is a clip from Pink Floyd's animated "The Wall", IIRC. Not that this comment really belongs in what was a pretty interesting thread.

(05-21-2009 08:38 AM)GGniner Wrote:  burried in the NYT today, Obama's plans for "Preventive Detention"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/pol....html?_r=1

what a difference responsibility makes, a product of the ACLU left is making Dick Cheney blush these days on some National Security issues....using some slick doublespeak to make it happen along the way.

Sshhh... there called concentration camps...

(05-21-2009 10:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  SMN - love the new avatar. Floyd rules, man!

Thanks I45....wasn't sure if anyone would know the marching hammers were a Floyd creation. Saw The Wall live in 1980 in Long Island.

(05-21-2009 11:36 AM)GGniner Wrote:  national security measures, more encroaching than the Patriot Act, go back much farther than 2001....like Washington and Adams, so "Shrub" didn't exactly legitamize anything that hadn't already been legitamized.

in our system where our leaders are "given power by the consent of the governed", and there isn't a dictatorship with absolute hold on power, its unlikely they would systematically persucute innoncent Americans. Really the only way, would be if a vast majority of voters demanded it.


Community Liberties and Individual Liberties and other Rights, have always clashed against each other.

Yes..I agree....but...What if I do not consent to be governed? I'd submit that I would be persecuted and put in a cold cell, even though I never harmed another person. Great system we have.

(05-23-2009 10:56 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(05-21-2009 10:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  SMN - love the new avatar. Floyd rules, man!

Thanks I45....wasn't sure if anyone would know the marching hammers were a Floyd creation. Saw The Wall live in 1980 in Long Island.

Interesting. I was too young to have seen that "tour". But, I did catch Roger Waters and the waterless Floyd circa 1986. It never occurred to me until then that some of the imagery may have come from the concerts rather than vice versa.

(05-24-2009 02:13 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-23-2009 10:56 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(05-21-2009 10:32 PM)I45owl Wrote:  SMN - love the new avatar. Floyd rules, man!

Thanks I45....wasn't sure if anyone would know the marching hammers were a Floyd creation. Saw The Wall live in 1980 in Long Island.

Interesting. I was too young to have seen that "tour". But, I did catch Roger Waters and the waterless Floyd circa 1986. It never occurred to me until then that some of the imagery may have come from the concerts rather than vice versa.

I saw Roger Waters twice during the last 2 years on his Dark Side of the Moon tour. It was pretty good. Grab a dvd of his 2000 tour "In The Flesh" and you'll get a good feel what his last tour was like. Waters was the creative genius of the Floyd....but he's a flaming liberal.

Pink Floyd's best is Dark Side of the Moon. Alan Parsons, Abbey Road's in-house engineer at the time, was the man who put that one together...

Just out of curiosity, anybody remember him?

(05-24-2009 11:03 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Pink Floyd's best is Dark Side of the Moon. Alan Parsons, Abbey Road's in-house engineer at the time, was the man who put that one together...

Just out of curiosity, anybody remember him?

I do, got all of his records, Eye In The Sky, Time, etc. classic songs. I think we're showing our age.

If you want to see some age, I remember when Soupy Sales was still on TV in Huntington, WV, long before he became famous...