Pretty interesting. The black shirt/white shirt symbolism at the beginning was interesting (was Fake Locke also wearing black? ... seems like he is usually in a white shirt - I knew something seemed off). I had wondered why (fake) Locke gathered the entire group to travel with him to see Jacob - that seemed un-Locke like. The potential for resurrection after betrayal is obviously there.

Fake Locke and the appearance of Ben's daughter in the "underworld" seems like it may have ties to the travel to retrieve the nuke...

Also interesting - the book that Jacob was reading whilst waiting for Locke to descend - "Everything That Rises Must Converge" by Flannery O'Conner.

Esau?(the fake Locke) is wearing Black, which is indicative of Evil

Jacob wearing White, meaning he's Pure I guess, the "Prodigal Son"?

though they never gave a name to him, it sure sounds like the Jacob and Esau brothers in Genesis.
Older and younger brother...though probably Spirits in the show, having an Epic battle

It could be good/evil, although has Jacob really come across as a force of good?

The statue where he resided had a crocodile head, which represents the Egyptian God Sobek. Sobek is kind of ambiguous, he can be seen in either good or evil lights..

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobeka.htm

It is interesting that in the pilot Locke sits down Walt and explains backgammon as a battle of white vs. black pieces..

(05-14-2009 04:22 PM)At Ease Wrote:  It could be good/evil, although has Jacob really come across as a force of good?

The statue where he resided had a crocodile head, which represents the Egyptian God Sobek. Sobek is kind of ambiguous, he can be seen in either good or evil lights..

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobeka.htm

It is interesting that in the pilot Locke sits down Walt and explains backgammon as a battle of white vs. black pieces..

in the first season the "adam and eve' skeletons they found in the cave, had a black rock and a white rock.

my guess is the Black Smoke Monster is the same thing as fake Locke imposter/Esau, its a deceiver/liar also.

that Statue was also holding Crosses in its hand, which goes back to my original assumption: the show is a hodge-podge of philosophies and themes.

I predict they will figure out a way to stretch this out for at least 2 more seasons....and you still won't know what the hell is going on.
I gave up last year...I just don't have that much patience.

(05-14-2009 04:22 PM)At Ease Wrote:  It could be good/evil, although has Jacob really come across as a force of good?

Does the god of the bible com across that way (it's not exactly the story of Big Rock Candy Mountain)? That ambiguity is always what makes the story of good and evil interesting.

(05-14-2009 10:51 PM)GGniner Wrote:  in the first season the "adam and eve' skeletons they found in the cave, had a black rock and a white rock.

my guess is the Black Smoke Monster is the same thing as fake Locke imposter/Esau, its a deceiver/liar also.

that Statue was also holding Crosses in its hand, which goes back to my original assumption: the show is a hodge-podge of philosophies and themes.

+1

The black/white imagery and Jacob vs. imposter makes me wonder if there is a Zoroastrian subtext. I actually know a Zoroastrian, but I don't know if he'd be able to provide any insight.

(05-15-2009 06:49 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I predict they will figure out a way to stretch this out for at least 2 more seasons....and you still won't know what the hell is going on.
I gave up last year...I just don't have that much patience.

I guess the single remaining dramatic question is whether we will know WTF is going on after it's all over. My wife and I missed most of last season. She hasn't seen much at all of this season, and kept driving me nuts asking questions during the finale.

(05-14-2009 10:51 PM)GGniner Wrote:  that Statue was also holding Crosses in its hand, which goes back to my original assumption: the show is a hodge-podge of philosophies and themes.

Do you mean the Ankh? That is classic Egyptian (pre-Christian). According to Wiki, it symbolizes "eternal life". I definitely agree with the hodgepodge characterization.

(05-15-2009 11:03 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(05-14-2009 10:51 PM)GGniner Wrote:  that Statue was also holding Crosses in its hand, which goes back to my original assumption: the show is a hodge-podge of philosophies and themes.

Do you mean the Ankh? That is classic Egyptian (pre-Christian). According to Wiki, it symbolizes "eternal life". I definitely agree with the hodgepodge characterization.

ah, stand corrected on the cross. Eternal Life makes sense with the show. I think Richard came over on that ship at the beginning.

I think the show is going the Dualistic route.

Black/White, Good and Evil, God and Satan, etc......are equals and fighting it out for the souls of the world. Biblically thats heretical, but common in hollywood themes, then you can blend in Eastern philosophies like the Yin/Yang with it for example.

Quote:Does the god of the bible com across that way (it's not exactly the story of Big Rock Candy Mountain)? That ambiguity is always what makes the story of good and evil interesting.

the God of the bible is absolute goodness, properly understood. the "Fall of Man" comes into play in understanding this one, which would make the Garden of Eden theories more compelling.

Killing Jacob...??????..???? How do you kill immortality?????

we'll find out next season I guess, I doubt he's actually dead too. but the context of the episode was killing Jacob, he was stabbed then pushed into the fire.

I think in the first season Locke saw a White Smoke Monster, everytime since then its been black. Maybe that was Jacob that time?

(05-15-2009 11:11 AM)GGniner Wrote:  the God of the bible is absolute goodness, properly understood. the "Fall of Man" comes into play in understanding this one, which would make the Garden of Eden theories more compelling.

I've had lingering doubts about my statement up above - I wasn't being intentionally provocative, just meant to say that there are certain actions that naturally lead you to question things - commanding a father to sacrifice his son, exterminating cities, etc.

(05-15-2009 11:33 AM)GGniner Wrote:  I think in the first season Locke saw a White Smoke Monster, everytime since then its been black. Maybe that was Jacob that time?

The white shirt/black shirt imagery really stuck with me in the first minute of the finale. I'm surprised I didn't pick up on Locke's black until later. But, now the black/white stuff seems like it's coming out of the woodwork.

Now, how many Star Wars allusions are there? Hanso - "Han Solo"? Hurley mentioned writing scenes for one of the Star Wars movies. Incidentally, Hanso is named after its Danish founder - their greeting "Namaste" is Sanskrit. They both sound Japanese, and with the doctor there, you're left with the impression that it's a Japanese conglomerate type.

I found this run down of black and white in the show

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Black_and_white

definitely a big part of what they are doing.


I guess the crux of the series has something to do with the Conversation at the beginning of Finale.

Esau/blackie: basically saying Man corrupts all things it touches, it always ends the same.

Jacbo: saying, it only ends once, everything until then is just progress.

(05-15-2009 11:30 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Killing Jacob...??????..???? How do you kill immortality?????

Blackshirt found the loophole, somehow, likely with something specific to Ben-- perhaps relating to young Ben getting healed or brought back to life by the temple?

The black monster killed Eko. He was one of my favorite characters. This good evil angle is interesting.

My biggest question after watching the last episode is, Who else has "Esau" been?

(05-18-2009 05:28 PM)bleed blue and gold Wrote:  My biggest question after watching the last episode is, Who else has "Esau" been?

Eko's dead minister was one I think


also, Ben's dead daughter who appeared when he was being 'judged' by the smoke monster.

which if the Others were lead by Jacob, why did they go to the black smoke monster to be judged?


I wonder if Christian was black smoke monster or who?